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Author Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It  (Read 3827561 times)
DiabloD3
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December 11, 2012, 05:09:26 PM
 #1001

Youmad? Sounds like the US want's their title of number 1 polluter back. This "Chinese crap" story is starting to sound like a broken record too, in the 60's and 70's it was "Jap crap" and the 3rd world is still getting around with the honda 50's and toyota corolla's that where going to "fall apart in no time". I'm not saying China's exports are 100% crap free but some of the highly stressed automotive and hydraulic components I've checked for quality and later assessed for wear have performed far better than their top of the line western equivalents and the quality/crap ratio's got a lot better since then.

Erm, except Toyota is the only major car manufacturer in the US. Ford, Chrysler, and GM do manufacture a few cars in the US but ship them over to Europe; the ones sold in the US are all Chinese made and Mexican assembled.

Toyotas will not fucking die. Ask Top Gear.

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December 11, 2012, 05:18:20 PM
 #1002

Youmad? Sounds like the US want's their title of number 1 polluter back. This "Chinese crap" story is starting to sound like a broken record too, in the 60's and 70's it was "Jap crap" and the 3rd world is still getting around with the honda 50's and toyota corolla's that where going to "fall apart in no time". I'm not saying China's exports are 100% crap free but some of the highly stressed automotive and hydraulic components I've checked for quality and later assessed for wear have performed far better than their top of the line western equivalents and the quality/crap ratio's got a lot better since then.

Erm, except Toyota is the only major car manufacturer in the US. Ford, Chrysler, and GM do manufacture a few cars in the US but ship them over to Europe; the ones sold in the US are all Chinese made and Mexican assembled.

Toyotas will not fucking die. Ask Top Gear.

This thread seems to periodically derail into a nationalistic/xenophobic pissing contest. Not productive, nor interesting... *yawn*
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December 11, 2012, 06:03:54 PM
 #1003

Youmad? Sounds like the US want's their title of number 1 polluter back. This "Chinese crap" story is starting to sound like a broken record too, in the 60's and 70's it was "Jap crap" and the 3rd world is still getting around with the honda 50's and toyota corolla's that where going to "fall apart in no time". I'm not saying China's exports are 100% crap free but some of the highly stressed automotive and hydraulic components I've checked for quality and later assessed for wear have performed far better than their top of the line western equivalents and the quality/crap ratio's got a lot better since then.

Erm, except Toyota is the only major car manufacturer in the US. Ford, Chrysler, and GM do manufacture a few cars in the US but ship them over to Europe; the ones sold in the US are all Chinese made and Mexican assembled.

Toyotas will not fucking die. Ask Top Gear.

This thread seems to periodically derail into a nationalistic/xenophobic pissing contest. Not productive, nor interesting... *yawn*

Well, stuff being made in China really is an issue. Its not about racism or nationalism. I, and most of the rest of the people living in my country, don't care where its made. Most of us don't even care that its a modern form of slave labor (I don't include myself in that group, however).

I was just backing up the Toyota will survive nuclear war sentiment.

That said, over 90% of chips fabricated are done so in China or Taiwan. 98% of all memory is done in Taiwan. Pretty much the only chips that aren't fabbed in China or Taiwan are either high performance CPUs (Intel, AMD, IBM, etc) and/or rad-hard milspec "its a matter of natsec" chips.

It doesn't matter how racist or nationalistic you are, you can't change the fact that China is the technology industry. It is not worth bringing up the fact friedcat has fabbed his chips in China because there really is nowhere else to do so.

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December 11, 2012, 07:21:35 PM
 #1004

That said, over 90% of chips fabricated are done so in China or Taiwan. 98% of all memory is done in Taiwan. Pretty much the only chips that aren't fabbed in China or Taiwan are either high performance CPUs (Intel, AMD, IBM, etc) and/or rad-hard milspec "its a matter of natsec" chips.

It doesn't matter how racist or nationalistic you are, you can't change the fact that China is the technology industry. It is not worth bringing up the fact friedcat has fabbed his chips in China because there really is nowhere else to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Semiconductor_Fabrication_Plants

Pretty much all of TI's stuff is made in the States, as is NationalSemi and OnSemi (formerly Motorola's power devices). Freescale (Motorola's IC spinoff) is mostly US. ST is all in Europe. Samsung the #1 memory maker in the world and their fabs are in Korea and the US. Micron is the number 2 memory maker worldwide and they run fabs in the US and Elpida's fab in Japan. Hynix is mostly in South Korea and the US, with one Chinese fab.
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December 11, 2012, 07:47:40 PM
 #1005

That said, over 90% of chips fabricated are done so in China or Taiwan. 98% of all memory is done in Taiwan. Pretty much the only chips that aren't fabbed in China or Taiwan are either high performance CPUs (Intel, AMD, IBM, etc) and/or rad-hard milspec "its a matter of natsec" chips.

It doesn't matter how racist or nationalistic you are, you can't change the fact that China is the technology industry. It is not worth bringing up the fact friedcat has fabbed his chips in China because there really is nowhere else to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Semiconductor_Fabrication_Plants

Pretty much all of TI's stuff is made in the States, as is NationalSemi and OnSemi (formerly Motorola's power devices). Freescale (Motorola's IC spinoff) is mostly US. ST is all in Europe. Samsung the #1 memory maker in the world and their fabs are in Korea and the US. Micron is the number 2 memory maker worldwide and they run fabs in the US and Elpida's fab in Japan. Hynix is mostly in South Korea and the US, with one Chinese fab.


I forgot about the Korean memory fabs. Its still the same thing in the end.

As for your list, yes, I'm aware of it. I have it in my bookmarks just for chip origin research purposes. Problem is, the list does not include how many chips the fabs produce every year. For example, TI's fab do not produce a lot of non-TI chips, and TI's most popular chips (which are not complex things like ARM SoCs) are often not fabbed at TI.

And yes, Freescale is still largely US, which is great. Samsung also does a lot more than just memory, also.

Now, given the kinds of fabs we need for this kind of project.... TI and Freescale and Samsung can't help us. Virtually all of those really are in China/Taiwan/Korea, although I think I remember ArtForz saying there was one in Mexico thats popular but the quality is worse than Chinese fabs.

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December 11, 2012, 07:58:32 PM
 #1006

That said, over 90% of chips fabricated are done so in China or Taiwan. 98% of all memory is done in Taiwan. Pretty much the only chips that aren't fabbed in China or Taiwan are either high performance CPUs (Intel, AMD, IBM, etc) and/or rad-hard milspec "its a matter of natsec" chips.

It doesn't matter how racist or nationalistic you are, you can't change the fact that China is the technology industry. It is not worth bringing up the fact friedcat has fabbed his chips in China because there really is nowhere else to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Semiconductor_Fabrication_Plants

Pretty much all of TI's stuff is made in the States, as is NationalSemi and OnSemi (formerly Motorola's power devices). Freescale (Motorola's IC spinoff) is mostly US. ST is all in Europe. Samsung the #1 memory maker in the world and their fabs are in Korea and the US. Micron is the number 2 memory maker worldwide and they run fabs in the US and Elpida's fab in Japan. Hynix is mostly in South Korea and the US, with one Chinese fab.


I forgot about the Korean memory fabs. Its still the same thing in the end.

As for your list, yes, I'm aware of it. I have it in my bookmarks just for chip origin research purposes. Problem is, the list does not include how many chips the fabs produce every year. For example, TI's fab do not produce a lot of non-TI chips, and TI's most popular chips (which are not complex things like ARM SoCs) are often not fabbed at TI.

And yes, Freescale is still largely US, which is great. Samsung also does a lot more than just memory, also.

Now, given the kinds of fabs we need for this kind of project.... TI and Freescale and Samsung can't help us. Virtually all of those really are in China/Taiwan/Korea, although I think I remember ArtForz saying there was one in Mexico thats popular but the quality is worse than Chinese fabs.
You didn't say "the kind of fab you need for this project is in Taiwan", you said that 90% of chips are fabricated in China and Taiwan, and the ones that aren't are high end CPUs or rad-hard chips, as well as 98% of memory being made in Taiwan. Both of those are very, very incorrect.

ST in Europe does a lot of contract fab work, and is another very viable option for a project like this. GloFo is also accessible @ 65nm.
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December 11, 2012, 08:08:03 PM
 #1007

Only important and relevant parts are:

1) When those chips are ready, is it guaranteed they actually work or will there be a random testing?

2) Will this happen before or after the shipping to ASICMINER team?

3) How many chips (%) to you think will be lemons?

Do not get too exited about the rest Smiley

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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December 11, 2012, 08:17:17 PM
 #1008

It seems our ASICMINER shares just got worth a little bit more.

BFL announced another much anticipated new delay. Will be about 30 days from now until they get their chips delivered from the foundry. Then they need to turn those into mining rigs of course, which means BFL customers probably won't be mining before the latter part of January 2013.

So if everything with ASICMINER stays on schedule that means we will be mining on a lower difficulty level for 3 to 4 weeks. With about 1/5th of the total network network capacity.

Sounds good to me  Grin

edit: BFL update link: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/519-10-dec-2012-bfl-asic-update.html

Nice... another month. I think many people now are angry that they put their money into bfl for months and the outcome of this is very open. The better for asicminer. Smiley

So let's do some back-of-the-envelope calculations here: on Dec 5, friedcat said there were 12 layers remaining and the rate is 1.1-1.5 days per layer, which brings us to chip completion date of between Dec 18 and Dec 23. Add another two weeks for packaging and shipping (estimate pulled out of thin air!), then one more week of unwrapping/assembly, which brings us to an estimated hashing starting date of between Jan 8 and Jan 13. Sound reasonable?

And for BFL: chips delivered to their HQ Jan 11, unwrapping/assembly: 1 week, shipping to customers: 4 days, which gives us an estimated hashing starting date of Jan 22.

Sounds correct taking friedcats last update into account. At the moment there should be around 8 layers left if the speed remains the same. I guess the layers are done at decembre 26th. Could be a hard race but friedcat said asicminer has the opportunity that shipping is done in the same city. So shipping will be faster probably. At the end... i wonder how much worth one day mining without competition will be.

Friedcat, any updates? What does "had become quicker" mean? I know, you can also just rely on info provided by the foundry, but is "had become quicker" really it?? Seems similar to Nefario's schedule of providing share holder lists Smiley
There are 12 layers left, which means that the last financial week we progressed for 4 layers.
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December 11, 2012, 08:21:45 PM
 #1009

That said, over 90% of chips fabricated are done so in China or Taiwan. 98% of all memory is done in Taiwan. Pretty much the only chips that aren't fabbed in China or Taiwan are either high performance CPUs (Intel, AMD, IBM, etc) and/or rad-hard milspec "its a matter of natsec" chips.

It doesn't matter how racist or nationalistic you are, you can't change the fact that China is the technology industry. It is not worth bringing up the fact friedcat has fabbed his chips in China because there really is nowhere else to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Semiconductor_Fabrication_Plants

Pretty much all of TI's stuff is made in the States, as is NationalSemi and OnSemi (formerly Motorola's power devices). Freescale (Motorola's IC spinoff) is mostly US. ST is all in Europe. Samsung the #1 memory maker in the world and their fabs are in Korea and the US. Micron is the number 2 memory maker worldwide and they run fabs in the US and Elpida's fab in Japan. Hynix is mostly in South Korea and the US, with one Chinese fab.


I forgot about the Korean memory fabs. Its still the same thing in the end.

As for your list, yes, I'm aware of it. I have it in my bookmarks just for chip origin research purposes. Problem is, the list does not include how many chips the fabs produce every year. For example, TI's fab do not produce a lot of non-TI chips, and TI's most popular chips (which are not complex things like ARM SoCs) are often not fabbed at TI.

And yes, Freescale is still largely US, which is great. Samsung also does a lot more than just memory, also.

Now, given the kinds of fabs we need for this kind of project.... TI and Freescale and Samsung can't help us. Virtually all of those really are in China/Taiwan/Korea, although I think I remember ArtForz saying there was one in Mexico thats popular but the quality is worse than Chinese fabs.
You didn't say "the kind of fab you need for this project is in Taiwan", you said that 90% of chips are fabricated in China and Taiwan, and the ones that aren't are high end CPUs or rad-hard chips, as well as 98% of memory being made in Taiwan. Both of those are very, very incorrect.

ST in Europe does a lot of contract fab work, and is another very viable option for a project like this. GloFo is also accessible @ 65nm.

No, the 98% figure was true up to about a few years ago. Now its Taiwan and South Korea, both countries being in the shadow of China (and Taiwan even still calls itself the Republic of China, rejecting the Communist revolution). I simply forgot about the newer Korean fabs.

GloFo AFAIK doesn't take jobs this small, but I could be wrong. And a lot of their fab power is in Singapore, which is still within the sphere of the Chinese tech sector's influence.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd love these chips to be fabbed in the US. Like, NatSemi still has a fab in Portland Maine, which is like 5 hours away from me, but I don't they think they take contract jobs (and I don't think they offer a node size small enough at that location, but they do at ). But look at the rest of friedcat's competitiors: its all TSMC (China, Taiwan), UMC (Taiwan, Singapore), or SMIC (China).

Friedcat needs to produce these at a fab that can do this with sufficient quality and still be cheap, as does everyone else. If doing it in the US or EU increases the cost even 10-15%, then this makes it that much harder to profit.

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December 11, 2012, 08:24:29 PM
 #1010

We should/could get another production update from Friedcat tomorrow....
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December 11, 2012, 08:50:29 PM
 #1011


No, the 98% figure was true up to about a few years ago. Now its Taiwan and South Korea, both countries being in the shadow of China (and Taiwan even still calls itself the Republic of China, rejecting the Communist revolution). I simply forgot about the newer Korean fabs.

GloFo AFAIK doesn't take jobs this small, but I could be wrong. And a lot of their fab power is in Singapore, which is still within the sphere of the Chinese tech sector's influence.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd love these chips to be fabbed in the US. Like, NatSemi still has a fab in Portland Maine, which is like 5 hours away from me, but I don't they think they take contract jobs (and I don't think they offer a node size small enough at that location, but they do at ). But look at the rest of friedcat's competitiors: its all TSMC (China, Taiwan), UMC (Taiwan, Singapore), or SMIC (China).

Friedcat needs to produce these at a fab that can do this with sufficient quality and still be cheap, as does everyone else. If doing it in the US or EU increases the cost even 10-15%, then this makes it that much harder to profit.
It's been more than a few years. Hell, for DRAM this is from 2001

Micron in the US is 17%, Elpida in Japan is 6%, Samsung and Hynix in Korea total 43%. I'm not really sure where all Infineon's fabs were in 2001 but I don't think they had any in Taiwan or China, I know they had a joint fab with Nanya later than that in Taiwan.
For flash, the market share has even less produced in China/Taiwan
http://www.statista.com/statistics/201746/market-share-of-leading-nand-flash-memory-manufacturers-worldwide/
Intel's production is in the US, Samsung in Korea and Toshiba in Japan. Micron is in the US and Singapore.

You can order GloFo runs through MOSIS both for MPW and COT runs.
http://www.mosis.com/vendors/view/global-foundries
CMP offers access to ST's processes down to 28nm on MPW and small volumes, or you could go direct to ST for larger runs.
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December 11, 2012, 09:26:37 PM
 #1012

Samsung has 2 large memory fabs in the US.

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December 11, 2012, 09:29:03 PM
 #1013

Samsung has 2 large memory fabs in the US.
Both at the same facility in Austin, correct?
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December 11, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
 #1014

Back on topic for a moment -

Have we made progress on re-listing ASICMINER on another exchange (now that the list has been received from GLBSE)

I'd like to reiterate my vote for    BTCT.CO   https://btct.co/

Another asset of mine (BAKEWELL) has just been reborn there, and I'm pleased with the results.

I believe we'll actually see the share price of ASICMINER jump once trading has resumed. I know I'll be bidding...
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December 12, 2012, 07:15:56 AM
 #1015

Back on topic for a moment -

Have we made progress on re-listing ASICMINER on another exchange (now that the list has been received from GLBSE)

I'd like to reiterate my vote for    BTCT.CO   https://btct.co/

Another asset of mine (BAKEWELL) has just been reborn there, and I'm pleased with the results.

I believe we'll actually see the share price of ASICMINER jump once trading has resumed. I know I'll be bidding...


I'd like to see it listed on Bitfunder instead.

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December 12, 2012, 07:45:41 AM
 #1016

Back on topic for a moment -

Have we made progress on re-listing ASICMINER on another exchange (now that the list has been received from GLBSE)

I'd like to reiterate my vote for    BTCT.CO   https://btct.co/

Another asset of mine (BAKEWELL) has just been reborn there, and I'm pleased with the results.

I believe we'll actually see the share price of ASICMINER jump once trading has resumed. I know I'll be bidding...


I'd like to see it listed on Bitfunder instead.
Seriously?

Terms:
1. We (BitFunder) do not accept responsibility for anything.
2. WARNING: Use at your own risk.
3. You must agree to 1 and 2.

At least they're honest  Roll Eyes

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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December 12, 2012, 07:47:42 AM
 #1017

Back on topic for a moment -

Have we made progress on re-listing ASICMINER on another exchange (now that the list has been received from GLBSE)

I'd like to reiterate my vote for    BTCT.CO   https://btct.co/

Another asset of mine (BAKEWELL) has just been reborn there, and I'm pleased with the results.

I believe we'll actually see the share price of ASICMINER jump once trading has resumed. I know I'll be bidding...


+1  Smiley

I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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December 12, 2012, 08:23:23 AM
 #1018

I believe we'll actually see the share price of ASICMINER jump once trading has resumed. I know I'll be bidding...

I'd like to see it listed somewhere.

What's the delay ?

From what I understand this could be listed in one of several places whenever the issuer chooses to list it.

Please send an update regarding what's happening with getting it listed on some exchange again.
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December 12, 2012, 09:30:47 AM
 #1019

What's the delay ?

I would prefer if it's not rushed. After the GLBSE fiasco, I'm not even sure listing on a centralized exchange is a good idea. With this in mind, I suspect that friedcat wouldn't relist all shares at once; making it opt-in might be the wisest choice, depending on the maintenance overhead.
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December 12, 2012, 10:24:08 AM
 #1020

What's the delay ?

I would prefer if it's not rushed. After the GLBSE fiasco, I'm not even sure listing on a centralized exchange is a good idea. With this in mind, I suspect that friedcat wouldn't relist all shares at once; making it opt-in might be the wisest choice, depending on the maintenance overhead.


As far as I remember, friedcat considered building a proprietary ASICMINER platform for listing and trading shares. As listing on all the alternitve centralized exchanges with their ponzis comes with risk, I think a proprietary platform is the best solution. We don't even know the exact reasons why glbse went down! Do you really want to ride the same horse again?
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