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Author Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It  (Read 3707874 times)
DiabloD3
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December 06, 2012, 10:47:21 AM
 #961

An update from the Avalon team with some remarks how ASICs are actually produced by TSMC and the likes

They have not much good to say about bASIC and BFL

This update is mainly to address the uncertainty that have been surrounding the ASIC scene recently due to the lackluster performance by our competitors. We will be walking you through our process of getting the ASIC fabricated. Unlike our competitors we are a in-house team and everyone is always on the same page.

Another update will address the actual status of our chips as we have obtained word from TSMC whom will offer us weekly updates on their website. All in all, see our arguments below regarding our competitors and wait for weekly updates directly from TSMC.

Anyhow, any of our numbers, estimates, and shipping date have not changed, just in case somebody got the wrong idea about this update.


First things first. the following Gallery is our contract with TSMC with pricing and other sensitive information removed. http://imgur.com/a/DnUNm


Some background information on ASIC production process, before tape out, 3 day before uploading GDS, we fill out a MT form with TSMC detailing the ASIC specific information so they may understand what we are doing. The gallery is here http://imgur.com/a/YOLez


to put simply, to create the physical ASIC goes something like this.

sign contract -> submit GDS for review -> mask making -> wafer making -> ship to packaging company -> packaging -> shipping.
Only then can the chips be in your hands or placed on PCB for finalization.

This whole process will take 30-50 days depending on the processor node technology used, mainly due to the increasing in layer number as you go down in processor size. for example, we have 29 layers, and since TSMC is one of the big companies in fabrication, each layer take 1.2 ( normal lot ) day per layer. in addition, accordingly to friedcat, their fab is producing 4 layers every week [odd, but I guess it is possible if fab is small].

This also means while you wait for the wafer(chips) fabrication you can not do anything else, it is usually around this time you make sure you have everything else ready.

a few things to note is,

1. while this wafer making process is going, you can't cancel it, or make adjustments, and if you wish to change anything, you will have to re-run this whole work flow all over again ( the large amount of the NRE upwards of 6 digits in USD is paid when you make the MASK). so anytime, BFL mention they are waiting for chips to come e.g. next week, but if they are still making adjustments, then this is physically impossible. In addition, fabrication company don't do chip packaging, if they are expecting the chips to arrive next week that means the production is already finished and they are probably in the chip packaging company (it is usually this time you find out if your chips work or not. which can also take some time since you'll have to test each of the chips for defects.)

2. the whole chip fabrication is very mathematically predictable based on the number of layers your ASIC has and the speed which the fabrication company can produce a layer. There is no such thing as a fabrication company giving a "fuzzy" date when it comes to when the chips will come from the assembly line. The only number that can vary is the shipping time from the fabrication company to the packaging company, but even that is no more than a few days of difference, depending on the shipping method.

3.a if bASIC made an MPW to start (which is the correct way to save money, but not time). the cost to get large amount of chips during this time is astronomical, however the average size is about 50. It is unheard of for somebody to only produce 2 chips to built a prototype and now no longer have any chips left over to build another prototype.

3.b. Even after testing MWP and everything is fine, it'll take the same amount of time to produce a new MASK ( cost and everything ) then make wafers, which will take another 30 - 50 days, which I suppose is consistent with bASIC's new mid-Jan shipping date, ( but this is optimistic estimate, the regular workflow is about 2 month)

3.c. what we think that happened is bASIC has licensed a SHA256 core, the IP company has already produced demo ASICs that utilizes this core, and did some math on how many core you can placed in the chip to obtain the 14GH/s estimated hashrate, while regular SHA256 and Bitcoin's blockchain hashing algorithm is not very different but it is not something you can compare via simulation without making an actual chip, and if they made an actual chip, even if it doesn't perform up to specifications you can still demonstrate it and be world first.

the conclusion is as follows.

1. If BFL really have chips coming, then they are not making any so-to-speak "clock buffer adjustments", either that or they don't have any chips coming and have not tape-out at all, it is also entirely possible that they have not make the MASK yet either. I guess we will find out on the week of the 11th, in this month hopefully.

2. we believe bASIC has no prototype, or have any chips. Also we at Avalon have also explored the possibility of licensing an IP core, but after some in-house comparison, none of the core on the market is superior to our own, thus we eliminated that option.

Questions, Comments are welcome.

I agree with this analysis.

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December 06, 2012, 11:51:45 AM
 #962

So why not we have the same level of transparency.

I think Friedcat keeps us well informed.... Avalon is basically stating the same as Friedcat did.... 30-50 days... it seems TSMC is moving a lot quicker with 1.2 Layers a day, but still ASICMINER should be mining well before any Avalon has been sent out, because we had a head start with production.

If the foundry keeps up 4 layers a week from now on, it means ASICMINEr should receive the chips just before Christmas, so we could theoretically (hopefully) have something online before the end of the year....hashing the first ASIC mined block ever

What has to be done after the foundry process (packaging etc)? How long till the chips can start mining? Any idea?
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December 06, 2012, 01:58:09 PM
 #963

What has to be done after the foundry process (packaging etc)? How long till the chips can start mining? Any idea?

This is an important question. Once we have the chips, we need a fully-working PCB to put them on, correct? What's the status on this, along with whatever else we need to get up and hashing?

Time is more valuable than money. You can get more money, but you cannot get more time.
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December 06, 2012, 03:29:53 PM
 #964

Is there any change in the status of the GLBSE information being released yet so we can start trading shares again ?

I'm interested in buying more as I now have more bitcoin available than I did prior to the GLBSE shutdown.
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December 07, 2012, 05:36:30 AM
 #965

http://blog.glbse.com/

According to Nefario, ASICMINER list has been sent!

They're there, in their room.
Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
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December 07, 2012, 05:46:21 AM
 #966

yay!
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December 07, 2012, 05:58:46 AM
 #967

That's great!

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December 07, 2012, 06:02:55 AM
 #968

I assume this second batch of 50TH/s be distributed amongst the shareholders? What is the status with Nefario?
They are either directly distributed to shareholders, or sold as physical devices/bonds. In the latter case, we would
pay all of the net profits to shareholders, or some of them if the shareholders agree to keep a portion as growing funds.

to put simply, to create the physical ASIC goes something like this.

sign contract -> submit GDS for review -> mask making -> wafer making -> ship to packaging company -> packaging -> shipping.
Only then can the chips be in your hands or placed on PCB for finalization.
This description is also very accurate for our case, except that we located the PCB assembly in the same city as the packaging service's. It would keep us away from some shipping time via inter-city third-party expresses.

This whole process will take 30-50 days depending on the processor node technology used, mainly due to the increasing in layer number as you go down in processor size. for example, we have 29 layers, and since TSMC is one of the big companies in fabrication, each layer take 1.2 ( normal lot ) day per layer. in addition, accordingly to friedcat, their fab is producing 4 layers every week [odd, but I guess it is possible if fab is small].
Our fab describes 1.4-1.5 day per layer as "hot-run" and 1.1-1.2 as "super hot-run" or "bullet". We guess the difference comes mainly from the usage rate of the production lines older than 90nm. Since there are still many orders from mainland China that are 90-130nm, the lines are busy, as said by the foundry. TSMC on the other side, deals with more orders more state-of-the-art, would be capable of process 90-130nm orders faster since the corresponding lines are less busy. Of course this is also only a conjecture.

There is no such thing as a fabrication company giving a "fuzzy" date when it comes to when the chips will come from the assembly line. The only number that can vary is the shipping time from the fabrication company to the packaging company, but even that is no more than a few days of difference, depending on the shipping method.
They indeed give an projected date accurate to a certain day, but this does not mean that the date is not "fuzzy". For example, the date estimation was adjusted to a earlier one after our progress had sped up.

What has to be done after the foundry process (packaging etc)? How long till the chips can start mining? Any idea?

This is an important question. Once we have the chips, we need a fully-working PCB to put them on, correct? What's the status on this, along with whatever else we need to get up and hashing?
The PCB's out and tested using artificial signals (using a software-controlled source of signal to simulate the chips). The place for our first batch's deploying is also located. The first chip starting mining will be very early if the chips are correct (no more than a week after we get the chips), but the whole 12TH/s of our first batch would be online incrementally. So the process if our chips are successfully tested would be:
testing boards running &
samples sent to community &
(more than) 50TH/s more orders to the fab &
Next-gen design started
(~2-3 weeks)
First 6TH/s online
(~2-3 weeks)
Second 6TH/s online
(~0-4 weeks)
50TH/s of chips out
(~2-3 weeks, ~2-5 weeks if location changes)
Part or all of the 50TH/s online
(~uncertain yet time)
Part or none of the 50TH/s productionized and for sale &
Third batch of mass production done &
Next-gen chips' order sent to the fab

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December 07, 2012, 06:03:35 AM
 #969

You guys should join the growing list of GLBSE transplants at btct.co.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130982.msg1401799#msg1401799 - [BTC-TC]bASIC-MINING
http://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,886.0.html - [LTC-GLOBAL]LTC-DMF
http://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,817.msg3279.html#msg3279 - [CRYPTOSTOCKS]AGLTC

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December 07, 2012, 06:04:33 AM
 #970

http://blog.glbse.com/

According to Nefario, ASICMINER list has been sent!
We confirm it. They are sent as two different .yml files. We will merge them and compare them with our older claims, then make them online in another platform.

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December 07, 2012, 06:26:17 AM
 #971

Gigavps received an updated list and Nastmining received the 1st version of its list with 98.15% of the shares accounted for

So it seems Nefario has been busy today  Grin


LOL,
So funny to read this nonsense about "shares"... read up on China Law guys.


Go away from this thread, 52 years old Hong Kong troller. I'm a private equity practitioner in China and a board member of ASICMINER, we have researched the law far more deeper than your "read-up-on" troll. The legalization is totally practicable and are in our plan.

P.S. You Hong Kong guys know nothing about the mainland now, and that's why nearly Hong Kong accent now are treated as a sign of loser in the Mainland investment industry. We just know that you Hong Kong guys don't know.

What you mean is the "losers" in Hong Kong demand a higher level of security and auditing, and have indeed busted many...many mainland companies and accountancy firms for fraud.(even the Americans have finally understood)
You cannot LEGALLY offer shares in a private company, unless you the shareholder is an employee of the company.

If you are indeed "Private equity" give us your details, and the so called details of the laws and areas applicable.
Also be good enough to show you business certificates/licenses to do foreign trade, and you government approval licenses for foreign investments.
and finally YOUR license, as a legalized "equity practitioner", so I may check with the local authorities

However by the professionalism of your reply I would guess you are just a minor line jockey making stuffed toys.

http://www.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/SEHK/2012/1129/LTN20121129439.PDF
http://www.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/SEHK/2012/1121/LTN20121121288.pdf
http://webb-site.com/articles/CIES.asp
http://webb-site.com/pages/hallofshame.asp



P.S
A reply to your post at your level, It describes your reply down to a tee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkqfa-kaRFM

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December 07, 2012, 07:12:06 AM
 #972


What you mean is the "losers" in Hong Kong demand a higher level of security and auditing, and have indeed busted many...many mainland companies and accountancy firms for fraud.(even the Americans have finally understood)
You cannot LEGALLY offer shares in a private company, unless you the shareholder is an employee of the company.




No, loser, by calling you a loser means that you HongKong guys are usually self-righteous but we just find you know nothing at all. You don't know how to get to contact with the potential entrepreneur, and your Madarian sucks, and you HK guys always mix English words when you speak Chinese, which have make you far away from the local entrepreneurs. Of course, you hongkong private equity investment managers are scammed frequently in Mainland, which brings huge loss to the behind investors. You don't know how to handle the relationship with local government, which is a key to earn success financial return here. Hong Kong private equity professionals working in China are mostly stupid, do you understand?



If you are indeed "Private equity" give us your details, and the so called details of the laws and areas applicable.
and finally YOUR license, as a legalized "equity practitioner", so I may check with the local authorities

Loser, I tell you the truth. Private equity is an industry which are mainly self-regulated worldwide. In mainland, the regulation entity is the NDRC (I 100% sure you have to google to know what this mean), and it is the reputation, experience and networking that is important. And as I am not raising money from you loser, I have no need to disclose my identity to you.

"license".....

The regulation system for private equity is a record keeping system, but not an approval system.  

no one have asked any "license" question in our industry. For example, the IDGVC China branch has been found since 1992, and they are the investors of Sohu.com, dangdang.com and xunlei.com, and I was a member of the DD team which represented the most wealthy institutional investors in China, we have checked tons of paperworks and digital records, but no one actually had asked Quan Zhou for a "licence".  

I think if I wanna fuck kiss your mother I need to get a licence from you, but if I wanna raise a private equity fund, I need just the recognition and trust of our private investors and then registered through a simple process in the local industrial and commercial bureau, then put a simple records at the local NDRC. I need no licence. If I wanna do something with your ass, I will apply a licence from you.


You cannot LEGALLY offer shares in a private company, unless you the shareholder is an employee of the company.




 As we have our plans to make ASICMINER 99% legal, as legal as other oversea listed Chinese companies, the existing structure is still defensible according to the Mainland law. And I will not talk about any more here publicly, as our board members are all standing with us.

We will not answer any questions here as you have show us enough that you are just a troller and coming to our thread with hostility.  We have to protect this project from the harm by people of abjection as you.

This troller is making his own bitcoin equipment. Trolling other people's threads are not good. You have goolged randomly to deliver some irrelevant meaningless trolling arguments.

Another mistake in your question. In China, we can offer registered capital( nearly the same as shares, with only very little difference) to investors less than 50 people, who has not be the stuff of the company. If the company is a joint stock limited company, the shareholders group can have 200 people, not necessarily stuff, too.

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December 07, 2012, 08:00:06 AM
 #973


What you mean is the "losers" in Hong Kong demand a higher level of security and auditing, and have indeed busted many...many mainland companies and accountancy firms for fraud.(even the Americans have finally understood)
You cannot LEGALLY offer shares in a private company, unless you the shareholder is an employee of the company.




No, loser, by calling you a loser means that you HongKong guys are usually self-righteous but we just find you know nothing at all. You don't know how to get to contact with the potential entrepreneur, and your Madarian sucks, and you HK guys always mix English words when you speak Chinese, which have make you far away from the local entrepreneurs. Of course, you hongkong private equity investment managers are scammed frequently in Mainland, which brings huge loss to the behind investors. You don't know how to handle the relationship with local government, which is a key to earn success financial return here. Hong Kong private equity professionals working in China are mostly stupid, do you understand?



If you are indeed "Private equity" give us your details, and the so called details of the laws and areas applicable.
and finally YOUR license, as a legalized "equity practitioner", so I may check with the local authorities

Loser, I tell you the truth. Private equity is an industry which are mainly self-regulated worldwide. In mainland, the regulation entity is the NDRC (I 100% sure you have to google to know what this mean), and it is the reputation, experience and networking that is important. And as I am not raising money from you loser, I have no need to disclose my identity to you.

"license".....

The regulation system for private equity is a record keeping system, but not an approval system. 

no one have asked any "license" question in our industry. For example, the IDGVC China branch has been found since 1992, and they are the investors of Sohu.com, dangdang.com and xunlei.com, and I was a member of the DD team which represented the most wealthy institutional investors in China, we have checked tons of paperworks and digital records, but no one actually had asked Quan Zhou for a "licence".  

I think if I wanna fuck kiss your mother I need to get a licence from you, but if I wanna raise a private equity fund, I need just the recognition and trust of our private investors and then registered through a simple process in the local industrial and commercial bureau, then put a simple records at the local NDRC. I need no licence. If I wanna do something with your ass, I will apply a licence from you.


You cannot LEGALLY offer shares in a private company, unless you the shareholder is an employee of the company.


We will not answer any questions here as you have show us enough that you are just a troller. You goolged randomly to deliver some irrelevant meaningless arguments.  As we have our plans to make ASICMINER 99% legal, as legal as other oversea listed Chinese companies, the existing structure is still defensible according to the Mainland law. And I will not talk about any more here publicly, as our board members are all standing with us.

Another mistake in your question. In China, we can offer registered capital( nearly the same as shares, with only very little difference) to investors less than 50 people, who has not be the stuff of the company. If the company is a joint stock limited company, the shareholders group can have 200 people, not necessarily stuff, too.



Yep nicely avoided.....

I can see from your use of the word "wanna" that you are just a young kid, trying to give the appearance of being "street smart", but I'm afraid to tell you that there is no such word in the English language.

I do not need to google "randomly" they are only "meaningless" to someone trying to avoid the truth.

I was the Chief executive of a foreign enterprise in China, and as such I am VERY familiar with what is and is not allowed.

You still did not answer my questions, nor did you clarify the points on China law.
Basically you are saying that it is NOT a private company, so  give me the stock code.
Show your documents for your business registration, despite what you say.. Licenses ARE required.

Even those shitty little shops/counters in Shenzhen  SEG market need to have business licenses and registration AND they have to be on display 24/7.

So lets see your business registration documents for your "as legal as other oversea listed Chinese companies"




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December 07, 2012, 08:18:27 AM
 #974

Yep nicely avoided.....

I can see from your use of the word "wanna" that you are just a young kid, trying to give the appearance of being "street smart", but I'm afraid to tell you that there is no such word in the English language.

I do not need to google "randomly" they are only "meaningless" to someone trying to avoid the truth.

I was the Chief executive of a foreign enterprise in China, and as such I am VERY familiar with what is and is not allowed.

You still did not answer my questions, nor did you clarify the points on China law.
Basically you are saying that it is NOT a private company, so  give me the stock code.
Show your documents for your business registration, despite what you say.. Licenses ARE required.

Even those shitty little shops/counters in Shenzhen  SEG market need to have business licenses and registration AND they have to be on display 24/7.

So lets see your business registration documents for your "as legal as other oversea listed Chinese companies"

Time to shit or get off the pot.

Post URLs quoting the exact parts of mainland Chinese law that prove your case, otherwise go find some other thread to troll.

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December 07, 2012, 04:45:37 PM
 #975

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December 08, 2012, 02:09:17 AM
 #976

Yep nicely avoided.....

I can see from your use of the word "wanna" that you are just a young kid, trying to give the appearance of being "street smart", but I'm afraid to tell you that there is no such word in the English language.

I do not need to google "randomly" they are only "meaningless" to someone trying to avoid the truth.

I was the Chief executive of a foreign enterprise in China, and as such I am VERY familiar with what is and is not allowed.

You still did not answer my questions, nor did you clarify the points on China law.
Basically you are saying that it is NOT a private company, so  give me the stock code.
Show your documents for your business registration, despite what you say.. Licenses ARE required.

Even those shitty little shops/counters in Shenzhen  SEG market need to have business licenses and registration AND they have to be on display 24/7.

So lets see your business registration documents for your "as legal as other oversea listed Chinese companies"

Time to shit or get off the pot.

Post URLs quoting the exact parts of mainland Chinese law that prove your case, otherwise go find some other thread to troll.

Time to show me your business licenses so I can see EXACTLY WHICH laws apply and the Area you are operating in.,  otherwise you will continually be saying that the "law does not apply to you"

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December 08, 2012, 02:19:12 AM
 #977



It will because they are embarrassed they have been busted, so it's time for them to get the "troll" moniker out.

After all why is it such a big issue for them to post their business licenses?, even the Nickel and dime businesses in the SEG market place them on the stall, hell it only takes two weeks to get official papers from the local government.

The next question is why the offensive posts so quickly?

Just so it's not seen as a "random troll" here is a copy of the outside cover of my China Government registration.


Now lets see theirs......



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December 08, 2012, 09:17:20 AM
 #978

After all why is it such a big issue for them to post their business licenses?, even the Nickel and dime businesses in the SEG market place them on the stall, hell it only takes two weeks to get official papers from the local government.
It would have helped if you were less provocative in your introductory post. It's full of contempt and arrogance. You may have a point, but that doesn't excuse lack of manners.

I don't walk into a restaurant, shout about that the place is a mess and then ask to see their licenses. You know what will happen? They will kick me out.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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December 08, 2012, 10:51:33 AM
 #979


What is the Chinese word for kindergarden ?

We will find out , if everything is alright , anytime soon.

Let's keep this Post for Information purposes.

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December 08, 2012, 11:08:48 AM
 #980



It will because they are embarrassed they have been busted, so it's time for them to get the "troll" moniker out.

After all why is it such a big issue for them to post their business licenses?, even the Nickel and dime businesses in the SEG market place them on the stall, hell it only takes two weeks to get official papers from the local government.

The next question is why the offensive posts so quickly?

Just so it's not seen as a "random troll" here is a copy of the outside cover of my China Government registration.


Now lets see theirs......




That picture could have been smaller. For all we know it's some notebook or w/e.

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