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Author Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It  (Read 3901528 times)
ninjarobot
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September 19, 2013, 08:55:10 AM
 #13021

I'm an AM shareholder and I hope we briefly dip to 1.5 BTC before the Gen2 announcement because I'll be buying.

The mining landscape is changing rapidly but FC had a significant head start. I don't believe he is a clown. And although I wish he would communicate more I also believe actions speak louder than words. Combined with his business ethics I feel comfortable riding things out with AM until at least the next halving.

The only thing I worry about is how competitive AM can be with 55nm hardware over the long run (9-12 months) when everybody else has moved to 28nm.

On the positive side, all the new hardware producers (Cointerra, Hashfast, etc.) seem to focus on bigger chips (400GH/s+). I think the USB stick mining space is actually very significant so I'm happy that AM should be able to keep emphasizing on that with Gen2 as well.
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September 19, 2013, 08:59:27 AM
 #13022

Introduction
ASICMINER is a virtual identity totally held by investors of the Bitfountain company. The Bitfountain company's business includes mining with self-built ASIC devices, as well as the sales of them. Currently ASICMINER shareholders holds 163,962 shares, while Bitfountain shareholders holds 236,038 shares. ASICMINER shares have the privilege of getting all net profits till 0.1BTC/share from the day when dividends began to be paid. They also have the exemption of dilution, which means that each ASICMINER share always equals to 1/400,000 of the total profits and voting power of the summed value from both ASICMINER and Bitfountain.

How to buy shares
There are no public exchanges approved or chosen by us yet. Nor we will be selling any of them without a public announcement. Currently you could only buy shares from earlier investors privately with or without third-party escrows. We provide no escrow service. The trade should be registered in our database to make the dividend payment conform with the transfer.

Dividend payment
The income, including mining income, sales via Bitcoins, and fiat income transferred to Bitcoins, are paid to ASICMINER and Bitfountain shareholders proportionally after the ASICMINER shares are paid by 0.1BTC each from the day when dividends began to be paid, when maintainance costs, labor costs, and R&D costs are taken.

Our chips
Generation 1: Block Eruptor. 130nm with 6-8J/GH. Each chip's rated frequency is 336MHz at 1.05V. It translates to 336MH/s because it does one hash per cycle. The chips work stable and well at 392MH/s at 1.15V. Further overclocking needs proper handling of heat and power supply.


Are those dividends only form mining, if so, why is he not sharing the profits form hardware sales? As I understand, AM made a killing, selling this stuff.



While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
TradeFortress 🏕
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September 19, 2013, 09:12:05 AM
 #13023

Introduction
ASICMINER is a virtual identity totally held by investors of the Bitfountain company. The Bitfountain company's business includes mining with self-built ASIC devices, as well as the sales of them. Currently ASICMINER shareholders holds 163,962 shares, while Bitfountain shareholders holds 236,038 shares. ASICMINER shares have the privilege of getting all net profits till 0.1BTC/share from the day when dividends began to be paid. They also have the exemption of dilution, which means that each ASICMINER share always equals to 1/400,000 of the total profits and voting power of the summed value from both ASICMINER and Bitfountain.

How to buy shares
There are no public exchanges approved or chosen by us yet. Nor we will be selling any of them without a public announcement. Currently you could only buy shares from earlier investors privately with or without third-party escrows. We provide no escrow service. The trade should be registered in our database to make the dividend payment conform with the transfer.

Dividend payment
The income, including mining income, sales via Bitcoins, and fiat income transferred to Bitcoins, are paid to ASICMINER and Bitfountain shareholders proportionally after the ASICMINER shares are paid by 0.1BTC each from the day when dividends began to be paid, when maintainance costs, labor costs, and R&D costs are taken.

Our chips
Generation 1: Block Eruptor. 130nm with 6-8J/GH. Each chip's rated frequency is 336MHz at 1.05V. It translates to 336MH/s because it does one hash per cycle. The chips work stable and well at 392MH/s at 1.15V. Further overclocking needs proper handling of heat and power supply.


Are those dividends only form mining, if so, why is he not sharing the profits form hardware sales? As I understand, AM made a killing, selling this stuff.


AM's divs include mining hardware sales.

Are you this late??
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September 19, 2013, 09:14:29 AM
 #13024

Are those dividends only form mining, if so, why is he not sharing the profits form hardware sales? As I understand, AM made a killing, selling this stuff.

Dividend payment
The income, including mining income, sales via Bitcoins, and fiat income transferred to Bitcoins, are paid to ASICMINER and Bitfountain shareholders proportionally after the ASICMINER shares are paid by 0.1BTC each from the day when dividends began to be paid, when maintainance costs, labor costs, and R&D costs are taken.
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September 19, 2013, 09:27:26 AM
 #13025

Are those dividends only form mining, if so, why is he not sharing the profits form hardware sales? As I understand, AM made a killing, selling this stuff.

Dividend payment
The income, including mining income, sales via Bitcoins, and fiat income transferred to Bitcoins, are paid to ASICMINER and Bitfountain shareholders proportionally after the ASICMINER shares are paid by 0.1BTC each from the day when dividends began to be paid, when maintainance costs, labor costs, and R&D costs are taken.

This thread grows so fast. Have you seen any statements? I must have missed those.

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
empoweoqwj
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September 19, 2013, 09:28:56 AM
 #13026

I think friedcat has done great. What puzzles me is the length of time to go from gen1 to gen2. There must be something missing in China that means it is taking a long time.

And yes, I know he said it would take a long time. My question is simply: why?

AM has all the experience in the field, bitcoins galore in the bank, why so long to get to gen2? ( November / December ). That's a lifetime away, even for a patient guy.

I'd put it forward a question for fc but even the "questions to ask fc" system appears to have been abandoned?
BitThink
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September 19, 2013, 09:48:47 AM
 #13027

Are those dividends only form mining, if so, why is he not sharing the profits form hardware sales? As I understand, AM made a killing, selling this stuff.

Dividend payment
The income, including mining income, sales via Bitcoins, and fiat income transferred to Bitcoins, are paid to ASICMINER and Bitfountain shareholders proportionally after the ASICMINER shares are paid by 0.1BTC each from the day when dividends began to be paid, when maintainance costs, labor costs, and R&D costs are taken.

This thread grows so fast. Have you seen any statements? I must have missed those.

I'm not sure what your question exactly is, but the latest update from friedcat stated that part of dividend was hold to cover the cost of assembling new boards to provide exponentially increasing hashing power on September and October. Moreover, in latest weeks, if I am not wrong more than half of the dividend actually came from the hardware sales.
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September 19, 2013, 09:50:51 AM
 #13028

Are those dividends only form mining, if so, why is he not sharing the profits form hardware sales? As I understand, AM made a killing, selling this stuff.

Dividend payment
The income, including mining income, sales via Bitcoins, and fiat income transferred to Bitcoins, are paid to ASICMINER and Bitfountain shareholders proportionally after the ASICMINER shares are paid by 0.1BTC each from the day when dividends began to be paid, when maintainance costs, labor costs, and R&D costs are taken.

This thread grows so fast. Have you seen any statements? I must have missed those.

I'm not sure what your question exactly is, but the latest update from friedcat stated that part of dividend was hold to cover the cost of assembling new boards to provide exponentially increasing hashing power on September and October. Moreover, in latest weeks, if I am not wrong more than half of the dividend actually came from the hardware sales.

My question is: Have you seen any regularly published financial statements, used for calculations for dividends. If so, can you please post the link.
Thank you.

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
ninjarobot
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September 19, 2013, 09:53:23 AM
 #13029

I think the USB stick mining space is actually very significant so I'm happy that AM should be able to keep emphasizing on that with Gen2 as well.
Yes, I remember the dividends of the first USB sales. Yummy. And the financial showed more revenue from USBs than from blades!
There are BitFury-based USB miners in the works though?

I do hope that the Gen2 USB sticks will be able to provide at least 2GH/s and that they will be available in bulk from day 1. If they only provide a 2x increase (.333 GH/s > .666 GH/s) they will fail. Getting ~1W per GH @ 55nm might be challenging but not impossible so we will see...
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September 19, 2013, 10:09:18 AM
 #13030

Getting ~1W per GH @ 55nm might be challenging but not impossible so we will see...

Shouldn't be that challenging if Bitfury easily managed to go significantly below 1W/GH.
Though I definitely agree with "wait and see" approach.

Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
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September 19, 2013, 10:39:48 AM
 #13031

Getting ~1W per GH @ 55nm might be challenging but not impossible so we will see...

Shouldn't be that challenging if Bitfury easily managed to go significantly below 1W/GH.
Though I definitely agree with "wait and see" approach.

 I read bitfury did a true full custom design, ie, custom transistors, there us nothing very easy about that.
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September 19, 2013, 10:41:07 AM
 #13032

I've been thinking about the discussion that was going on here yesterday. Essentially there was a consensus that probably FC will only sell hardware, not adding anything to the ~60TH/s (in house or with franchisee) mining, until Gen2 (~December). The assumption was that we make more money that way. Now I think we were wrong to assume nothing will be added to the mining farm, and here is why.

FC released the public plan for the near future rather recently. I'm speaking about the statement where he mentioned 200TH/s to be deployed in September/October, and 1PH/s for the end of the year. I am too lazy to search for it, but it was less than a month ago.
There is no way, absolutely no way, that FC had such a plan less than a month ago, and then just changed his mind "oh, wait, after all, no! Forget 200TH, forget 1PH, let's completely change the plan and just sell for several months, leaving our hashrate droping close to zero". No way, they must have many projections of the near-term future, in terms of competition, difficulty rise, mining market, etc. Nothing unforseen has happened over this time period that would explain such a plan change. Especially for things that FC made public; not exactly something he does lightly.

Now I'm sure that we will get our 200TH/s soon (actually I came to write this and then discover it looks better than yesterday! yeah!).
That will be above 10% of the hash rate again.
And there will be hardware sells on top of that, because there is no reason to stop them.  Cool


Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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September 19, 2013, 10:53:19 AM
 #13033

I've been thinking about the discussion that was going on here yesterday. Essentially there was a consensus that probably FC will only sell hardware, not adding anything to the ~60TH/s (in house or with franchisee) mining, until Gen2 (~December). The assumption was that we make more money that way. Now I think we were wrong to assume nothing will be added to the mining farm, and here is why.

FC released the public plan for the near future rather recently. I'm speaking about the statement where he mentioned 200TH/s to be deployed in September/October, and 1PH/s for the end of the year. I am too lazy to search for it, but it was less than a month ago.
There is no way, absolutely no way, that FC had such a plan less than a month ago, and then just changed his mind "oh, wait, after all, no! Forget 200TH, forget 1PH, let's completely change the plan and just sell for several months, leaving our hashrate droping close to zero". No way, they must have many projections of the near-term future, in terms of competition, difficulty rise, mining market, etc. Nothing unforseen has happened over this time period that would explain such a plan change. Especially for things that FC made public; not exactly something he does lightly.

Now I'm sure that we will get our 200TH/s soon (actually I came to write this and then discover it looks better than yesterday! yeah!).
That will be above 10% of the hash rate again.
And there will be hardware sells on top of that, because there is no reason to stop them.  Cool



It is pointless to pile up hardware, that can not earn profit. If the cost of chips+all the expenses can not return profit, % from total network is irrelevant.
Question is, can AM rigs, built at close to "cost", still earn more than it wastes on energy and other expenses like keeping it running etc.
If answer is No, then sell what you have at any price you can get and move on.

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
binaryFate
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September 19, 2013, 10:58:14 AM
 #13034

I've been thinking about the discussion that was going on here yesterday. Essentially there was a consensus that probably FC will only sell hardware, not adding anything to the ~60TH/s (in house or with franchisee) mining, until Gen2 (~December). The assumption was that we make more money that way. Now I think we were wrong to assume nothing will be added to the mining farm, and here is why.

FC released the public plan for the near future rather recently. I'm speaking about the statement where he mentioned 200TH/s to be deployed in September/October, and 1PH/s for the end of the year. I am too lazy to search for it, but it was less than a month ago.
There is no way, absolutely no way, that FC had such a plan less than a month ago, and then just changed his mind "oh, wait, after all, no! Forget 200TH, forget 1PH, let's completely change the plan and just sell for several months, leaving our hashrate droping close to zero". No way, they must have many projections of the near-term future, in terms of competition, difficulty rise, mining market, etc. Nothing unforseen has happened over this time period that would explain such a plan change. Especially for things that FC made public; not exactly something he does lightly.

Now I'm sure that we will get our 200TH/s soon (actually I came to write this and then discover it looks better than yesterday! yeah!).
That will be above 10% of the hash rate again.
And there will be hardware sells on top of that, because there is no reason to stop them.  Cool



It is pointless to pile up hardware, that can not earn profit. If the cost of chips+all the expenses can not return profit, % from total network is irrelevant.
Question is, can AM rigs, built at close to "cost", still earn more than it wastes on energy and other expenses like keeping it running etc.
If answer is No, then sell what you have at any price you can get and move on.


The cost to build and run them (maintenance/electricity) is still ridiculously low compare to earning. It would be a mistake to believe thath because 55nm are out there and soon 28nm, our gen1 is obsolete in terms of just being profitable. The only reason to sell is because you earn even more, not because you're doomed to never break even. You'll see that from how low the price of the blades will be in the next few months.

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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September 19, 2013, 11:13:25 AM
 #13035

I've been thinking about the discussion that was going on here yesterday. Essentially there was a consensus that probably FC will only sell hardware, not adding anything to the ~60TH/s (in house or with franchisee) mining, until Gen2 (~December). The assumption was that we make more money that way. Now I think we were wrong to assume nothing will be added to the mining farm, and here is why.

FC released the public plan for the near future rather recently. I'm speaking about the statement where he mentioned 200TH/s to be deployed in September/October, and 1PH/s for the end of the year. I am too lazy to search for it, but it was less than a month ago.
There is no way, absolutely no way, that FC had such a plan less than a month ago, and then just changed his mind "oh, wait, after all, no! Forget 200TH, forget 1PH, let's completely change the plan and just sell for several months, leaving our hashrate droping close to zero". No way, they must have many projections of the near-term future, in terms of competition, difficulty rise, mining market, etc. Nothing unforseen has happened over this time period that would explain such a plan change. Especially for things that FC made public; not exactly something he does lightly.

Now I'm sure that we will get our 200TH/s soon (actually I came to write this and then discover it looks better than yesterday! yeah!).
That will be above 10% of the hash rate again.
And there will be hardware sells on top of that, because there is no reason to stop them.  Cool



It is pointless to pile up hardware, that can not earn profit. If the cost of chips+all the expenses can not return profit, % from total network is irrelevant.
Question is, can AM rigs, built at close to "cost", still earn more than it wastes on energy and other expenses like keeping it running etc.
If answer is No, then sell what you have at any price you can get and move on.


The cost to build and run them (maintenance/electricity) is still ridiculously low compare to earning.

How do you know that? Have you seen any numbers (statements) form AM to back that up? Can you please give me a link?

It would be a mistake to believe thath because 55nm are out there and soon 28nm, our gen1 is obsolete in terms of just being profitable. The only reason to sell is because you earn even more, not because you're doomed to never break even.

Belief has nothing to do with it. Just simple math. Why waste time mining with this stuff if you can earn more by selling it and concentrating on developing the next gen chip? And if you add mining risks to this equation... huh. Let someone else have them and take the coin available now from sale.

You'll see that from how low the price of the blades will be in the next few months.

Exactly, because they become less and less profitable (to mine or to sell)

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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September 19, 2013, 11:15:01 AM
 #13036

I've been thinking about the discussion that was going on here yesterday. Essentially there was a consensus that probably FC will only sell hardware, not adding anything to the ~60TH/s (in house or with franchisee) mining, until Gen2 (~December). The assumption was that we make more money that way. Now I think we were wrong to assume nothing will be added to the mining farm, and here is why.

FC released the public plan for the near future rather recently. I'm speaking about the statement where he mentioned 200TH/s to be deployed in September/October, and 1PH/s for the end of the year. I am too lazy to search for it, but it was less than a month ago.
There is no way, absolutely no way, that FC had such a plan less than a month ago, and then just changed his mind "oh, wait, after all, no! Forget 200TH, forget 1PH, let's completely change the plan and just sell for several months, leaving our hashrate droping close to zero". No way, they must have many projections of the near-term future, in terms of competition, difficulty rise, mining market, etc. Nothing unforseen has happened over this time period that would explain such a plan change. Especially for things that FC made public; not exactly something he does lightly.

Now I'm sure that we will get our 200TH/s soon (actually I came to write this and then discover it looks better than yesterday! yeah!).
That will be above 10% of the hash rate again.
And there will be hardware sells on top of that, because there is no reason to stop them.  Cool



It is pointless to pile up hardware, that can not earn profit. If the cost of chips+all the expenses can not return profit, % from total network is irrelevant.
Question is, can AM rigs, built at close to "cost", still earn more than it wastes on energy and other expenses like keeping it running etc.
If answer is No, then sell what you have at any price you can get and move on.


The cost to build and run them (maintenance/electricity) is still ridiculously low compare to earning.

How do you know that? Have you seen any numbers (statements) form AM to back that up? Can you please give me a link?

It would be a mistake to believe thath because 55nm are out there and soon 28nm, our gen1 is obsolete in terms of just being profitable. The only reason to sell is because you earn even more, not because you're doomed to never break even.

Belief has nothing to do with it. Just simple math. Why waste time mining with this stuff if you can earn more by selling it and concentrating on developing the next gen chip? And if you add mining risks to this equation... huh. Let someone else have them and take the coin available now from sale.

You'll see that from how low the price of the blades will be in the next few months.

Exactly, because they become less and less profitable (to mine or to sell)

I have to agree here.

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September 19, 2013, 11:28:37 AM
 #13037

Anyway we are not in a position to decide anything, we are just trying to guess what is FC's next move. What seems to us to make the most sense is maybe not what is going to happen, because we do not have all elements of knowledge in hands.

What I am sure, is that FC was planning to release 200TH/s in September/October, one month ago, and I do not consider likely that he changes completely his plan on such a short term.

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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September 19, 2013, 11:33:10 AM
 #13038

I shudder to think of the electricity wasted otherwise.
I'm quite concerned about scaling too, but apparently most people aren't.

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September 19, 2013, 12:50:27 PM
 #13039

I shudder to think of the electricity wasted otherwise.
I'm quite concerned about scaling too, but apparently most people aren't.


Can you copy paste what you wrote there here? It seems to be a private forum.
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September 19, 2013, 01:15:25 PM
 #13040

So about that sell-versus-mine tradeoff, there are not one but two considerations:

1) Time preference, already mentioned above several times.  This is more or less obvious: it may be preferable to get slightly less immediately than to get slightly more later, depending on how much "slightly" and how much is "later".  This is not only about APR but about market situation as well: when you have sufficient funds for current needs, your time preference is more likely to be "later but more" than when you need to gather more financial resources quickly.  Here franchising is treated as mining (if I understand correctly, franchising pays off over time, just like self-mining).

2) The less obvious factor here is anticipated network hashrate growth.  By favoring mining over selling they would be betting against hashrate growth relative to market (average public) expectation.  And by selling more they are clearly anticipating that the network will grow faster than the average public expects.  And here franchising is treated as selling (the price is affected by customer's network growth expectations).

So we can conclude that if AM is selling new units instead of deploying them, then it can only mean that at least one of the following statements is true (more likely both):

A) They have time preference for "less but sooner", which may indicate they are accumulating funds for massive final gen.1 production or for launching gen.2.

B) They anticipate higher network growth than the market expects.  This can assure us that they are trying to be well-prepared for the coming 28nm massacre.

Note that franchising volume doesn't indicate much on itself because it belongs to the opposite sides of decision.

As you see, I'm still bullish because both conclusions look optimistic to me.  Now with the current share prices I seem to be against the market, but sadly I don't have enough capacity to buy even more shares.  Regardless, an update from friedcat would be very nice.

Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
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