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Author Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It  (Read 3901474 times)
tarmi
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September 24, 2013, 04:22:56 PM
 #13321

so most if not all blades are going to be sold and franchised.


We are in ASIC bubble (which isnt sustainable) and people today are much more aware of the risks and implications of buying ASIC miners.  

I think that time of hysterical buys of overpriced hardware is over. why would anyone spend and risk their bitcoins to buy asic miner?

That's a problem mostly for sellers/retailers and for particular miners.

Most of the new players have not amortised their original investment yet. Be it time or money. They will have to face higher pressure than those who already have their infrastructure in place and have been long running on profit.


new players (bitfury) are already hashing for months with their gear, they are deploying 8 x ASICminer hashrate, and are selling chips for premium prices.

I would say its quite the opposite: ASICminer is facing higher pressure now then 6 months ago.

  
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September 24, 2013, 04:28:25 PM
 #13322

Custom Cooling Systems
We have been finalizing on our HK datacenter with our professional partner on immersion cooling. This product will be of interest both miners, and other industries that require cooling of similar hardware. Our cooling system partner built it as an exhibition house where everything is clean and shiny for investors/buyers to visit and for ASICMINER to make videos as a demonstration.

This is the most interesting part of the news. Their first datacenter is in Shenzen, curious about the capacity of this second data center. The immersion cooling news means they are expanding beyond just Bitcoin mining and hardware sales.

I have a hunch on what system they are using but it is interesting news

I hope that friedcat will do and sell this extremly overpriced Novec 7000 cheap Smiley
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255613.0;all
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September 24, 2013, 04:33:43 PM
 #13323

I totally share Strange Vlad's feeling:
Many of you seem to believe that thiner chips instantly make the previous ones obsolete. But from a miner point of view, the equation is simple: see what you can get for which price, see how much it will consume of electricity, and see how much it will earn you in bitcoins. Looking at products with this in mind, 130nm will remain a relevant choice for many more months. I am sure AM pricing policy will constantly remind that to everybody.
When FC says "gen2 will come in time", you are wrong to think it is a way to admit they are late. It simply means "at the most appropriate time". You should really wonder why AM does not agree with you as to what is the most appropriate time...

First - the process size (130nm, 55/45nm, 28nm, etc) has nothing to do with the chip thickness.  That is determined by the thickness of the wafer, which is 400-800 microns thick (it's actually usually more for smaller process nodes, since 300mm wafers are used and those have to be thicker to keep the wafer from flexing/shattering).

The process size instead refers to the standard half-pitch of a memory cell. That doesn't really apply to a SHA256 ASIC, but it is a measure of how small the process can reliably make things. A die shrink (logic's 32nm -> 22nm for example) typically doubles the amount of standard cells that can fit on a die of fixed size. For SHA256 applications, this means precisely double the speed (and probably less power use per GH). Since the assembly is a major part of the costs,  and you can get twice as much out of one chip, you've basically halved your costs per GH, AND made it easier to deploy a large amount of hashpower.

So that's 32->22, one 2x shrink. For 130-> 28 we expect approximately 21.5x performance (feel free to check my math). Probably more, since professionals will be doing the 28 designs and FC's 130 design was basically a hobby project.

The process node matters. Intel's whole business model has relied for decades on staying a process node ahead of their competitors. Seems to be working.

“Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing”
― Warren Buffett

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September 24, 2013, 05:22:06 PM
 #13324

The process size instead refers to the standard half-pitch of a memory cell. That doesn't really apply to a SHA256 ASIC, but it is a measure of how small the process can reliably make things.

This is typically called the "minimum feature size".  It has a bunch of other names too, like "critical dimension", etc, but I feel that "feature size" gives the best immediate understanding.

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September 24, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
 #13325

mean while, cointerra have just got FPGA working, is it good or bad news
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September 24, 2013, 05:53:18 PM
 #13326

Interesting regarding the franchising. I hope more information comes out as I have ~60 kW of electrical capacity sitting idle due to increasing difficulty making any ASIC purchases a risky gamble. Winter is coming and while $0.076/kWhr might not be the most competitive, I'm sure it'll be competitive for a few months.
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September 24, 2013, 06:43:34 PM
 #13327

Interesting regarding the franchising. I hope more information comes out as I have ~60 kW of electrical capacity sitting idle due to increasing difficulty making any ASIC purchases a risky gamble. Winter is coming and while $0.076/kWhr might not be the most competitive, I'm sure it'll be competitive for a few months.

Any idea what rates are around the world?

I pay about 0.045/kWhr.
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September 24, 2013, 06:46:58 PM
 #13328

Interesting regarding the franchising. I hope more information comes out as I have ~60 kW of electrical capacity sitting idle due to increasing difficulty making any ASIC purchases a risky gamble. Winter is coming and while $0.076/kWhr might not be the most competitive, I'm sure it'll be competitive for a few months.

Any idea what rates are around the world?

I pay about 0.045/kWhr.

~ $0.07/kWh in Guangdong (Shenzen - AM is here).

~ $0.01/kWh in parts of Central Washington (state) and Siberia.

~ $0.15/kWh in California (for businesses).

The electricity cost is going to be much a factor in the long haul as the chips are. We will definitely see a migration of old hardware to super-cheap electricity regions. If I was starting a company, it'd be to do just that - buy obsoleted hardware and move it to super-cheap locations.

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September 24, 2013, 06:48:45 PM
 #13329

I checked europe when i still thought i would get a reasonable amount of profitable avalon asic chips and found that in europe bulgaria has the best rates with 9Euro Cents.

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
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September 24, 2013, 06:55:43 PM
 #13330

Interesting regarding the franchising. I hope more information comes out as I have ~60 kW of electrical capacity sitting idle due to increasing difficulty making any ASIC purchases a risky gamble. Winter is coming and while $0.076/kWhr might not be the most competitive, I'm sure it'll be competitive for a few months.

Any idea what rates are around the world?

I pay about 0.045/kWhr.

~ $0.07/kWh in Guangdong (Shenzen - AM is here).

~ $0.01/kWh in parts of Central Washington (state) and Siberia.

~ $0.15/kWh in California (for businesses).

The electricity cost is going to be much a factor in the long haul as the chips are. We will definitely see a migration of old hardware to super-cheap electricity regions. If I was starting a company, it'd be to do just that - buy obsoleted hardware and move it to super-cheap locations.

Wow -- I thought we had it cheap in Oklahoma at $0.045/kWhr during non-summer months.

Thanks for the info.
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September 24, 2013, 06:57:11 PM
 #13331

Interesting regarding the franchising. I hope more information comes out as I have ~60 kW of electrical capacity sitting idle due to increasing difficulty making any ASIC purchases a risky gamble. Winter is coming and while $0.076/kWhr might not be the most competitive, I'm sure it'll be competitive for a few months.

Any idea what rates are around the world?

I pay about 0.045/kWhr.

Vycid has it correct. This is an interesting link for a rough comparison -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing. In the US, I believe the average is around $0.09-0.11/kWhr with some exceptions(California, extremely high, Pacific Northwest, extremely low).

I'm on an industrial plan, if I can franchise I need to talk with Excel about the ability to drop my kWhr rate even further.
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September 24, 2013, 08:14:15 PM
 #13332

The future of asic mining is selling hardware, including cooling system, backplane, maybe a diesel generator, solar cell, phone miner, anything relating to mining. Ltc / xmp asic ,may come in a few years, we might even see a personal nuclear powerplant selling in btcguild. So the income is not limited to  btc left to be mined.





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September 24, 2013, 08:14:23 PM
 #13333

We pay here about $0.01/kWh, but that's for private homes.  Companies pay less, about $0.005/kWh, depending on their volume, voltage and location.  And the big loyal-to-government companies get it for $0.001/kWh in some cases, because government kinda "supports" them, LOL.  Stupid socialists.

It's not Siberia though, only 500 km to the east from Moscow.
But it also varies from region to region, I just happen to live 30 km from a hydroelectric plant.  I heard in other regions prices are significantly different.  For example, some southern regions (Dagestan, Chechnya) get some "special" government support, so people there get $0.003-0.005/kWh for private homes and even less for companies.

Hope it's useful.

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Vycid
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September 24, 2013, 08:23:01 PM
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We pay here about $0.01/kWh, but that's for private homes.  Companies pay less, about $5/MWh, depending on their volume, voltage and location.  And the big loyal-to-government companies get it for $1/MWh in some cases, because government kinda "supports" them, LOL.  Stupid socialists.

It's not Siberia though, only 500 km to the east from Moscow.
But it also varies from region to region, I just happen to live 30 km from a hydroelectric plant.  I heard in other regions prices are significantly different.  For example, some southern regions (Dagestan, Chechnya) get some "special" government support, so people there get $0.003-0.005 for private homes and even less for companies.

Hope it's useful.

Interesting. Haven't had a chance to speak to a local. I assume cooling expenses are lower too in Russia  Wink

How's rent on industrial space? What would it cost for, say, a 1MW hookup (and associated costs per watt at that consumption size)?

I think there is serious first-mover potential for low-margin mining in Russia.

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September 24, 2013, 09:03:28 PM
 #13335

How's rent on industrial space? What would it cost for, say, a 1MW hookup (and associated costs per watt at that consumption size)?

I'm sorry, but it's very difficult to answer that question.  The industrial prices are usually lower than home prices, but they depend on a lot of things.
1) There are many different companies in different areas, but all of these companies are de-facto national, not private.  These companies are very complicated, and may have very different prices.
2) The companies usually don't post the prices on the internet, suggesting you call them and ask.  I've just tried to find some region-by-region comparison rating or something like that, but there's no such info.
3) The prices are calculated from many parameters: maximum power, average power, consumed energy, power usage ratio (avg. power / by max. power), supplied voltage, location, etc.  The prices are calculated from company's transit price (set by local officials) and federal prices (set by laws), both of them change often, at least every year.
4) The prices depend on who you are: what kind of company (there are several categories), and it may become lower if you are "well connected" to some officials in the energy business.
It's all VERY complex.

As for hooking up, it may also be different: for example they can provide a cable, or you may have to lay the cable yourself.  The closest energy hub may be full so you may need to lay a cable to some more remote hub.  If you're in the city, it will become bureaucratic hell to lay the cable through the streets.  And of course it also depends on corruption, whether you are "well connected" or not.

I've managed to find some numbers at around $300/kW for hook-up, but it's for 2010 and for Moscow (the most expensive region).

Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
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September 24, 2013, 09:24:22 PM
 #13336

Great news
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September 24, 2013, 10:30:45 PM
 #13337

He says an order is two weeks late. Why? Do they know if it will show up? I don't see how you can say , oh the order is 2 weeks late, but in OCT it will add 500 ths. If it's already late how can you know when it will arrive?
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September 24, 2013, 10:43:54 PM
 #13338

He says an order is two weeks late. Why? Do they know if it will show up? I don't see how you can say , oh the order is 2 weeks late, but in OCT it will add 500 ths. If it's already late how can you know when it will arrive?
When you're on your way but 20mn late to a date, I guess you call and say "I'll be 20mn late, sorry". Isn't that slightly abusive? If you're already late how do you know when will you arrive?

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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September 24, 2013, 11:25:32 PM
 #13339

He says an order is two weeks late. Why? Do they know if it will show up? I don't see how you can say , oh the order is 2 weeks late, but in OCT it will add 500 ths. If it's already late how can you know when it will arrive?
When you're on your way but 20mn late to a date, I guess you call and say "I'll be 20mn late, sorry". Isn't that slightly abusive? If you're already late how do you know when will you arrive?


Did you just compare going to a date to operating a business? And 20 minutes to 2 weeks?

Typically, in a business situation, the delay is explained and the anticipated impact to ETA is provided.

AM is not, of course, legally considered a public company in the eyes of any major regulatory body so FC can do whatever he likes.

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September 24, 2013, 11:41:48 PM
 #13340

He says an order is two weeks late. Why? Do they know if it will show up? I don't see how you can say , oh the order is 2 weeks late, but in OCT it will add 500 ths. If it's already late how can you know when it will arrive?
When you're on your way but 20mn late to a date, I guess you call and say "I'll be 20mn late, sorry". Isn't that slightly abusive? If you're already late how do you know when will you arrive?


Did you just compare going to a date to operating a business? And 20 minutes to 2 weeks?

To demonstrate the fallacious logic of the post I was replying to, yes I did.
His logic was that once you're late, you cannot provide any ETA. That is fallacious, both for a date and a business, both for 20mn and 2 weeks. Because the logic is fallacious, you know, not the stuff around.

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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