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1801  Other / Meta / Re: The problem begins and ends with YOU. on: April 22, 2019, 04:11:54 AM
Interesting to see a (reddit) account seller trying to improve the forum.

I think a lot of your stated problems can be traced back to problems with the trust system, specifically from the way trust is displayed by default (DT). My suspicion is that theymos wants to have DT setup in a way that he avoids being labeled a "publisher" in regards to liability for libel. If theymos tinkers with the DT system too much, or if it is moderated too heavily, the courts might rule he is not merely hosting content, but is "publishing" content. This matters because if someone is labeled a scammer via the DT system when they are not a scammer, they could sue theymos for libel, and would do so because he is easier to find, and has more assets than most people on DT (and in the forum).

No one obviously intentionally gets scammed, but there are improvements that can be made upon the marketplace. For starters, there could be merit/rank/activity requirements in order to either start a thread, to unlock a thread (more than x times), or to create a thread with self moderation. This would at least increase the effort a scammer would need to put into trying to scam.

I don't see signature campaigns going away anytime soon -- they bring in the page views that generate revenue for the forum. Signature campaigns ultimately are market based, and advertisers pay as little as they can to get the best deal for them. I would point out that when someone pays to have their ad displayed, they are paying to have their ad displayed to potentially 20 other ads on the same page.

Except for "Lack of new upgrades" everything you are complaining about can be traced back to the trust system.
1802  Other / Meta / Re: Any news about the treasurer (paraipan ) who stole BTC? on: April 22, 2019, 02:31:03 AM

What address is the private key to? Can you sign a message from it? I would think that would be harmless.

Are you sure GitHub did not auto "update" all profiles around the time it is showing as being last updated?

Obviously his private key is somewhere in the public domain. If you cannot post the address, was it the private key he held the forum bitcoin in?

I've asked to a friend of mine that is quite good with this kind of thing and he said is a manual update, someone should be doing it. I'm not sure of it since I do not know anything about GitHub.

For the address, I can sign a message but you will see the address, as I said I will share it only with theymos if he wants it.
No, it is a useless address with only a few transactions on it and it wasn't the address with 250 BTC.

I have a lot more to share about it but someone can think is inappropriate, so I don't know if I will share it publicly.
Ah, I was under the impression you would only share the private key with theymos.

Theymos (presumably) has paraipan's dox, as I assume it was given to him so theymos could file tax forms in relation to paraipan's payment he would receive for holding the forum's money. Unless you have information to suggest paraipan had multiple IRL identities, or that he faked his death, I am not sure how much value this would be.

theymos also does not appear to be especially interested in playing an active role in recovering the money, perhaps out of fear of violating debt collection (and similar) laws.
1803  Other / Meta / Re: Meriting people over 1k merit on: April 22, 2019, 02:19:42 AM
One thing the merit system is supposed to do is highlight good posts. If someone asks a question, there are several bad/poor answers/explanations given, and someone with a lot of existing merit gives a correct/good answer, their post may be deserving of merit. 
1804  Other / Meta / Re: Thread owners on: April 22, 2019, 02:06:08 AM
The OP of a thread can create "local rules" when they create a thread. A local rule must be simple enough so that a moderator responding to a report can quickly tell if a rule was broken or not. The local rules are enforced only if the moderator wishes to, and there are certain types of local rules that will not be enforced, such as "no calling me a scammer" "no saying I am wrong" etc.

1805  Other / Meta / Re: [Experiment] Do shitposters care if someone replies to their posts? on: April 22, 2019, 01:55:45 AM
I can assure you that the "shitposters" very much care if someone replies to one of their posts. The reason they care is because if you reply to their posts, they can respond to what you said for another easy/quick post.
Then, I would have gotten much more replies.

I think there may be a couple of reasons you received so few replies:
1 - you posted in fairly large threads in which it is difficult to even a "normal" person to find a response to what you say. These "shitposters" want to spend as little time writing each post as possible, and going back multiple pages to look for a response takes time. I suspect you would get different results if you replied to these users in a smaller thread.
Maybe, but I had the impression that also smaller threads start to get more pages very soon if you can't get a first page reply.
Most threads do not get that many pages of replies.

In my experience, most threads that are titled with a question, especially those that can be answered "yes or no" will not have a lot of meaningful discussion. Looking at the other threads you (I assume 0xmiau is you) posted in, I am not especially surprised you didn't receive a response. 
2 - There is a 20 post per day limit as to how many posts each account will be paid for. I don't think many in this campaign will make much more than 20 per day, or even look at the forum from that account once they make 20 posts that day. If you wait a day or two, you may see a couple more responses
My experiment took place way before the YoShit Signature Campaign (April 11 + April 12) and is not related to it. It migh be a strange coincidence that YoBit starts their spam campaign just after I started to do the experiment.
And I've waited 10 days for their replies if you look at the date of my posts in the OP...
Ahh, that is my bad -- I only assumed this was related to the yobit spammers because that is what most threads are about right now.

I looked more closely at the posts you replied to, and they are especially bad.

My experience with shitposters more closely resembles what happened here by "brewins". I have seen other signature spammers act similarly in that they would ask a series of questions in a marketplace thread for something they had not interest in.

I had always assumed most signature spammers have at least a very basic understanding of bitcoin, but this is perhaps not true (anymore). Ever since I saw this thread, I have suspected some of the bounty hunter spammers are being paid by a third party, and the same forum account may not even be used by the same spammer from day to day. If someone does not even have a basic understanding of bitcoin/crypto currencies, they are not going to be able to engage in a conversation with you -- if they try they will look (more) stupid.
1806  Economy / Reputation / Re: [Yet another Yobit topic because I'm a hypocrite] Yobit shitposting participants on: April 22, 2019, 01:19:45 AM
You can create multiple Yobit accounts trivially (I presume), however this does not mean Yobit does not know when you have two accounts. They can look at your IP address, and browser fingerprint (including cookies they leave in your browser) to detect if you have multiple accounts, and the identities of the multiple accounts.

You generally have to know what you are doing to truly appear to only have one account when you have two. Based on the quality of posts being made by several people within the yobit campaign, I am going to assume they don't have the required knowledge to do this.

     Quite frankly, I'm not confident that Yobit's technical team is going to keep on top of it. There is a reason they have over 1400+ coins listed. They fail to delist shitcoins that are long dead with no chance of revival.   I just hope that they can install a decent campaign manager, quick, who can spoonfeed them exactly which accounts get the banhammer.
Many exchanges take payments to list certain coins, and while I don't know the specifics of these types of agreements, it is possible one clause in the agreements state that yobit will continue listing the coin for x time, or "forever".

Exchanges have a vested interest in tracking the type of information necessary to determine if two accounts belong to the same person so they can do things like prevent suspicious withdrawals and block hacking attempts.

Yahoo62278 claims to have been contacted by yobit to manage their campaign, however I somewhat suspect most exchanges have more staff than necessary for ongoing operations. This is based on the declining trading volumes on major exchanges, and the ~95%+ decline in trading volumes from the ATH (measured in USD). I would suspect that yobit has someone on their staff with sufficient time and skills to manage their campaign.



Well.. If they can't even weed out people with negative trust.... I'm not either. (They're currently just getting paid.) I guess that shows how competent their development team/community manager really is.

As detecting whether or not someone has negative trust is a piece of cake to do manually, and probably even easier if you simply automically scrape each participant...?

Everyone who has used the internet before should be able to do a simple task like blacklisting people who currently have negative trust from participating. There's really no excuse to this laziness from yobit.
Do you know that everyone is getting paid? From what I can tell payments are being made to participants yobit accounts off the blockchain.

The negative trust rule appears to have been implemented after the campaign started. I suspect most of the data is being retrieved via automation so that management can more easily audit payments and track the efficiency of the campaign. They might not be pulling the data from an account that is logged in. Also they will need to write code (and audit code) before they put it into production.

I can also promise you that anyone who trades above certain thresholds, is active/well known in their chatbox (if they have one), or otherwise has generated a lot of revenue for them (perhaps via referrals) is going to be allowed to participate, regardless of any negative trust.
1807  Other / Meta / Re: [Experiment] Do shitposters care if someone replies to their posts? on: April 22, 2019, 12:39:07 AM
I can assure you that the "shitposters" very much care if someone replies to one of their posts. The reason they care is because if you reply to their posts, they can respond to what you said for another easy/quick post.

I think there may be a couple of reasons you received so few replies:
1 - you posted in fairly large threads in which it is difficult to even a "normal" person to find a response to what you say. These "shitposters" want to spend as little time writing each post as possible, and going back multiple pages to look for a response takes time. I suspect you would get different results if you replied to these users in a smaller thread.
2 - There is a 20 post per day limit as to how many posts each account will be paid for. I don't think many in this campaign will make much more than 20 per day, or even look at the forum from that account once they make 20 posts that day. If you wait a day or two, you may see a couple more responses
1808  Other / Meta / Re: Any news about the treasurer (paraipan ) who stole BTC? on: April 21, 2019, 09:40:27 PM
With a lot of research, you have no idea!

I can post one more not a harmless thing

his GitHub profile has been updated on 2017, even if I have no idea on why and who could do it.

https://api.github.com/users/paraipan

What address is the private key to? Can you sign a message from it? I would think that would be harmless.

Are you sure GitHub did not auto "update" all profiles around the time it is showing as being last updated? Are you able to rule out something changing that would not be caused by someone logging into the account? The API response does show it being updated in 2017, but there are no "contributions" in years. I see it lists the email as "null" -- perhaps github removed the email when it got a "bounceback" when his email account was closed due to inactivity (this is of course speculation).

Obviously his private key is somewhere in the public domain. If you cannot post the address, was it the private key he held the forum bitcoin in?
1809  Economy / Reputation / Re: Trust system abuse, i bought this account because the rules allow it. on: April 21, 2019, 08:40:52 PM
Another person seems to have left the forum because their reputation was ruined for something unrelated to scamming.
He will be removed from the Yobit signature campaign, that's all.
Having a negative trust doesn't mean you don't have the right to participate in discussions.

You have a negative trust but still you are one of the most active users.

He said he quit [the forum]. Regardless of what his rights are, it appears he will no longer participate here.

He spent money on buying his account, presumably to be able to participate in a signature campaign to earn money, and a newbie account (possiblyprobably the person who sold him the account) nearly immidiately opened a thread claiming the account was hacked. He now can no longer use that account to earn from a signature campaign.

The newbie account said the account was sold for $60 but was never paid, and the person posting from Vesperion says he actually paid $200 for it. IMO the price that Vesperion provided sounds more reasonable considering he can earn a little more than $100/week in the yobit campaign. Neither has provided any kind of signed message, nor evidence a payment for the account was made one way or another.

I am still able to conduct the amount of business I wish to conduct, under the circumstances that are acceptable to me, and as such, I continue to participate. Someone else who is unable to conduct business with their negative trust is not going to continue to participate.
1810  Other / Meta / Re: Any news about the treasurer (paraipan ) who stole BTC? on: April 21, 2019, 08:29:13 PM
After 3 days of researches.

I've found a private key of Paraipan but the address is empty, I found a lot of interesting things but this may seem offensive for somebody, so I don't really know if I should post them or not.

For the private key, I will never share it publicly, if theymos wants it I will send it by pm only to him. (the key is for a very low-value address and I do not think it will be used ever again)
How did you find his private key?
1811  Economy / Reputation / Re: [Yet another Yobit topic because I'm a hypocrite] Yobit shitposting participants on: April 21, 2019, 08:26:13 PM
It is fairly easy for Yobit to detect multi accounts in their campaign because they need to sign up via their yobit account.

Obviously this is all their words and until it is clear these people are not getting paid, it will be difficult to verify.

I would anticipate the negative trust rule will not be enforced if their participants start getting negative trust in masse 

Yobit only allows a person to register one user id per account. However, Yobit has close to zero KYC requirements. There is little stopping someone from have a different yobit account for each account here. Let's hope the worst spammers are not too bright and take the addtional steps needed to avoid detection.
You can create multiple Yobit accounts trivially (I presume), however this does not mean Yobit does not know when you have two accounts. They can look at your IP address, and browser fingerprint (including cookies they leave in your browser) to detect if you have multiple accounts, and the identities of the multiple accounts.

You generally have to know what you are doing to truly appear to only have one account when you have two. Based on the quality of posts being made by several people within the yobit campaign, I am going to assume they don't have the required knowledge to do this.
1812  Economy / Reputation / Re: [Yet another Yobit topic because I'm a hypocrite] Yobit shitposting participants on: April 21, 2019, 08:08:51 PM
Finally there is some update from yobit (not sure they are official support team)

Quick update: We have found many users abusing our campaign with multiple accounts.  Anyone signing up multiple accounts WILL BE PERMANENTLY BANNED from this signature campaign.  We haven't gotten around to removing accounts with negative trust yet but they will also be removed after our next update.

Thanks for everyone that has joined and keep in mind that short spam posts will not be tolerated in the future.  If we find you burst posting short one liners you will be removed from this campaign when we do our manual checks.  Aim for at least 3-4 lines and please fix any grammatical errors and always stay on topic.

So hopefully most of the spammers and abusers will be removed. Smiley
It is fairly easy for Yobit to detect multi accounts in their campaign because they need to sign up via their yobit account.

Obviously this is all their words and until it is clear these people are not getting paid, it will be difficult to verify.

I would anticipate the negative trust rule will not be enforced if their participants start getting negative trust in masse 
1813  Economy / Reputation / Re: Trust system abuse, i bought this account because the rules allow it. on: April 21, 2019, 08:02:22 PM
I [...]  quit.
Another person seems to have left the forum because their reputation was ruined for something unrelated to scamming.
1814  Other / Politics & Society / Re: NK State media: NK tested a "tactical guided weapon" on: April 21, 2019, 06:58:24 PM
Nearly every military conflict during the Cold War was effectively a proxy war between the West and the Communist countries. The Communists were doing the same thing the US was doing (intervening) via the North.
1815  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A message from the future with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on: April 21, 2019, 06:25:55 PM
She is a narcissist.

The GND is a fantasy that would crash the US economy, remove its status as a economic and military superpower and do absolutely nothing for the environment or global warming

I think you are too harsh in your comment.
OK, she is very young woman without any political experience but she have hearth and desire change something.
She sees that things in society do not work and rich people become more and more wealthy and the poor become more and more poorer.
Social inequality increases, industries are closed (automobile for example) etc.
At least she is trying something and now government should do next step and see what is realistic to apply and do in the following period.
Surely, some ideas are good and politicians should do something about it, environment, climate change etc.  

She is taking credit for doing something that will save the world, but the world is not "going to end in 12 years" and what she is proposing is not going to save anything.

Quote from: google search "narcissist"
narcissist -

noun

a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves.
"narcissists who think the world revolves around them"
I think the above describes AOC pretty well.
1816  Other / Meta / Re: Complete ranking list of the most distrusted/excluded users on: April 21, 2019, 06:20:23 PM

None of that means anything when 15 people have sent 20.7% of all merit ever sent.
I calculated 19.34% as of last Friday.
I had calculated it from the merit stats page, most generous senders - all time when I wrote that post, and I just recalculated it to ~19.35% from the same page just now (perhaps I made a calculation error when I made my previous post). I don't think the ~1.5% discrepancy changes my point.

This would be less of a concern if the merit system was used solely to decide who gets to rank up.

I am just pointing out that considering that who is on DT is ultimately based on merit, and that 15 people have given out over 20% of all merit, any trust or merit stat is going to be skewed heavily towards what those 15 people want.
It's not ideal, but it's something. If users without earned Merit could vote, the users with most sockpuppets would get to decide.
I agree that implementing the current DT system without merit consideration would not be a step in the right direction, but I also think the DT changes implemented early this year was not a step in the right direction either.

The DT system has never been perfect, but I think every change in how it was implemented has been a step in the wrong direction ever since it was originally implemented. 
Quote
Some of these people are trustworthy, others, not so much, but none of them have come close to demonstrating it is appropriate to having anywhere near the amount of influence they have.
It is indeed scary how one post from me changes someone from DT1 (1) to DT1 (-5), without excluding him by myself. But that is how the system is supposed to work: voting based on available data.
There is a lot of data available, but that does not mean this is all the consideration people use, and it does not mean people do not use coercion to get people to chance their inputs to the data, so that the underlying data is changed.

You mentioned that someone with a lot of sockpuppets without the consideration of merit, however that is only the most glaring conflict of interest in which someone can get themselves added to DT. There have been instances in which people have sent trust/merit to close business associates, to people they have traded with many times (and most probably wish to continue trading with), and to their friends, all without anyone batting an eye.

There may be some cases in which it may be appropriate to give merit and/or trust and/or a trust inclusion to people with the above relationships, but if this happens enough, the data does not reflect that a given person has (or doesn't have) judgement valued by many people, or that the person can be reasonably trusted (or cannot be reasonably trusted) with your money -- it is more a reflection of how many of the above types of relationships you have engaged in, particularly with the right people. Further, as you are well aware, many people are confused as to the difference between a trust rating and a trust list, and as such, someone who has traded with many people over time are likely to be reflected as having many trust inclusions.

Also if someone were to speak truth to power, you may see your various scores be negatively affected.
1817  Other / Meta / Re: Leave negative feedback for Yobit spamming? on: April 21, 2019, 01:06:30 PM
Doing this would be very harmful to the forum. You should let the moderators do their job.
1818  Other / Politics & Society / Re: A message from the future with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on: April 21, 2019, 06:02:36 AM
She is a narcissist.

The GND is a fantasy that would crash the US economy, remove its status as a economic and military superpower and do absolutely nothing for the environment or global warming
1819  Other / Meta / Re: [EXPERIMENT] Testing the Limits of Shitposting on: April 21, 2019, 05:06:07 AM
$30 or $60 an hour is actually pretty good in first world countries. In third world countries, this is enough for a days expenses.

I’ve already started to see posts that clearly don’t know what they are talking about and/or clearly haven’t read much more than the thread title.

It's pretty good - but the rate at which you need to be posting to reach this.. You'll go mad in a couple days..

@actmyname did you have these posts "pre-prepared" / ready? (1 post a minute is insanity..)
Out of curiosity, how many accounts are you posting from with their signature?
1820  Other / Meta / Re: [EXPERIMENT] Testing the Limits of Shitposting on: April 21, 2019, 02:32:31 AM
$30 or $60 an hour is actually pretty good in first world countries. In third world countries, this is enough for a days expenses.

I’ve already started to see posts that clearly don’t know what they are talking about and/or clearly haven’t read much more than the thread title.
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