Do you guys think that because your government controls and sensors all information, that ours (or for Wiki, the rest of the world's) does too? Sorry to tell you guys, but your country is terrible, and places outside of it are much more free.

And funny you guys are talking about US this and that. Ukraine isn't even on the news in US, and no one here cares about it at all. US is too occupied with ISIS in Iraq, and a white cop shooting a black kid in Ferguson (small US town). US even sent troops into Iraq again, which may not have been legal to do without congress permission, so Ukraine is DEFINITELY not on anyone's watch list here.

Face it, guys. You may have thought you were supporting freedom-loving, libertarian separatists, but there's more and more evidence that you have been supporting a communist dictatorship instead.

No they wouldn't, as that would instantly lose them all international support and make them an obvious bad guy. So they destabilize the region with propaganda and troops without insignia (like in Crimea) instead.

Like this one that came out just an hour ago? http://time.com/3198068/russian-soldiers-in-ukraine-put-pressure-on-putins-denials/
Or the pictures of captured Russian POWs? Or the fact that Crimea is not part of Ukraine any more? What proof do you need to believe that Russia invaded Ukrainian soil?


They're just saying that to get US attention and support. Everyone else recognizes it for what it is, a civil war, started by Russian propaganda, fear mongering, and invasion.


Are you sure about that? Because Russian style freedom is on the move already
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/a-ukrainian-filmmaker-in-prison-for-opposing-russia-s-occupation-of-crimea

Sure there's a huge issue with corruption, and economy never fully recovering from soviet influence, still being way too socialist. But is the solution for these people to be invaded by Russia? From what I hear, Russia has even worse problems.

This is exactly why many of us think bitcoin will grow so much. It doesn't need a bank account, and you can even use it with a dumbphone through SMS. So if most people don't have bank accounts or internet or smartphones, then bitcoin is the only option for most people.

That's just Hive. Bitcoin let's you chain transactions one after another. If they all have proper fees, they will all get accepted in the next block at the same time. Mycelium let's you do this without a problem. The only issues you might see is if you use LocalTrader's confidence graph it will not go past 50%, or if some wallet service tracks for unusual transactions (such as those with unconfirmed inputs) they may not accept your transaction until it is confirmed in a block (happened to me with BitPay, but my unconfirmed input was a single transaction sending 1mBTC to 30 wallets, with no fee, that took 30 hours to confirm).

Easy to do, and was done at least once already. Just have the code be released as dormant in the new versions of bitcoin, have it track how many nodes have updraged, and  then switch on automatically once about 90% to 95% of the network has installed the version with the new code. Users won't even notice the switchover as it goes from an old style block to a new style block. P2Pool publishes upgrades to their systems this way all the time, and unless you know what is going on, you wouldn't even notice the hard forks, other than installing a new version once in a while.

So, I ran some finance calculations, and:

If bitcoin value goes to $10,000 and stays there forever, but USD keeps inflating at 3% every year, Bitcoin will be worth $1,000,000 in 150 years (but $1mil will only buy what $10k buys today)

If Bitcoin value goes up and stays at $10,000, but USD keeps inflating at the rate it has over the last few years, bitcoin will be worth $1mil in just 67 years.

Keep in mind that I picked the $10,000 figure as a conservative estimate of BTC capturing only 0.5% of the world's cash amount.

Now let's say inflation is at a slightly higher rate than the target, at 4% a year, which is I think reasonable with the increased spending, debt obligations, and possibly continuing troubles in the global economy (it's just 1% higher than the Fed's 3% target), and Bitcoin grows at an average rate of a normal stock at 10% a year. Meaning instead of growing to $10,000 (or 0.5% of use) and staying there, it actually continues to grow, with 10% more people adopting it every year. In this case, Bitcoin will be worth $1mil in 56 years, at which point it will be worth about $100,000 in today's dollars, having a market cap of about $1.7 trillion dollars. I don't know what percentage of the total world wealth that will be, since we don't know how much the world economy will expand by then.

If inflation is the same 4%, but bitcoin grows at the same average rate it has over the last few years, about 2x to 3x, or, say, 250%, it will reach $1mil in just 5.9 years, where its worth will be $810,000 per coin. HOWEVER, if that happens, it will have a market cap of about $11 trillion dollars, which tells me that it's pretty much not possible for bitcoin to consistently double or triple every year for the next 6 years. (Sorry latecomers, you may still have a massive return, but there are not many of those left)

So, where about is a reasonable number? No one knows, especially since bitcoins growth is expected to be rapid over the next few years, then level off to something more sustainable years from now, and dollars will continue to decline. While I can set up such a model, the extra detail provided by the variables will not counter the fact that all these numbers are coming out of my ass. But, if we wanted to rough it, and I know you guys want at least some estimates after reading all this, then:

Using 3.5% inflation, and 40% annual bitcoin growth (very reasonable, considering Small Cap stocks give 16%, and we're talking global adoption for currency, transactions, and investments here), gives us a $1million Bitcoin in 21 years, with bitcoin market cap of $8 trillion dollars, which right now is maybe half of all the world's wealth, but 20 years from now may be a fairly small (reasonably believable) part of it.

So there you have it folks. About 20 years for bitcoin to hit $1,000,000, if bitcoin continues being adopted and doesn't fail or get replaced along the way (with an error rate of plus or minus 10 years). For those wondering if you will ever see it in your lifetime, you have your answer.

So who got this hypothetical money? Klitchko? Poroshenko? Because there wasn't anyone acting as a leader at those protests. People were generally angry that Yanukovich reneged on a thing he promised to sign, and then EXTREMELY angry that he started giving himself dictatorial powers, and unilaterally sentenced everyone on Maidan to 15 years in prison. That's the only reason all of my friends were protesting. Maybe CIA paid Yanukovich 5 billion to play a bad guy? It would explain his house and sail ship.

That link doesn't go anywhere. Tesla coils???

You guys support a country that invaded another country and started a war. The country I support isn't in the west, or part of the EU, and didn't invade anyone.

I'm not supporting western imperialism, I'm supporting Ukraine. What, you think if German or American troops go into Ukraine to fight Russia, they will make Ukraine into Germany or Russia? We ALREADY KNOW what Russia would do. It did it as USSR, and did it again with Crimea. Sure, western imperialists aren't great, but at least they're not communist dictators (who killed MILLIONS more than imperialists).



Wow. Now I am sure you're Russian. You're an antisemite too.
Yes, I'm sorry to break it to you, but supporting a pro communist dictatorship rebel force makes you a communist dictator. Just like supporting Muslim extremist rebels in Iraq makes you a Muslim extremist. Also, Poroshenko, CIA backed or not, was not invading foreign countries. If Russia cared so much about their own people getting bombed (which Russia instigated with the same kind of bs you're spewing here), they should have allowed Russian refugees into their country, or displayed an overwhelming show of force by putting in troops that protected their people, but didn't do any actual annexing. And it would have been completely open and public about it, unlike how it was in Crimea where everything is sencored now. But instead Putin was a weak and cowardly pussy who only gave the minimum support to those Russians he was trying to save, and let them get bombed by Ukrainian military. OR he was an idiot, and didn't realize that giving weapons to those Russians and have them go around shooting people would bring the Ukrainian army on their heads. OR, most likely, he doesn't give a shit about those Russians in Ukraine, like he never gave a shit about anyone in Ukraine, and this fight is about something completely diffrrent.

I guess my succinct catch phrase stands corrected. So, instead "100% of fiat currencies fail or get destroyed." Hope that's better.

By the way, I'm wondering, this is a forum dedicated to a currency that enables free markets, personal financial freedom, and freedom from taxation for support of oligarchs and warmongers.

Where the hell did you communist dictator oligarch supporting assholes come from?

Did Russia tell you that? Because none of my friends who were on Maidan got any money, and all of my friends' parents who volunteered to give them food and water paid for those out of their own savings and pensions. Where did that 5 billion go, if none of it got to Maidan?


I heard it was because they wanted the government to help the Ukrainian troops surrounded by Russian military volunteers? I should probably ask my friend what's going on, since he would be one of those back protesting (he was responsible for providing Maidan with internet and WiFi during the previous protests).


The photos were of Russian trucks, and when Grad was first fired, the casualties were Ukrainian civilians and Ukrainian troops. Russia tried to play it down as if it was "the rebels" that shot GRAD, not them, but America and Europe were shocked and were trying to figure out if GRAD is even allowed within Geneva conventions. Your memories are so short! It is no wonder you guys are wishing to have a communist empire again. You all forgot how terrible it was.


So there are no Russians in Eastern Ukraine or Crimea? Or, if there are volunteers, where did they get their military equipment? Did they have a donation collection at their local church? Or maybe everyone in Russia can buy such weapons? (Wikipedia says Russia has strict gun controls, and citizens can't buy rifles, but maybe since Wikipedia is banned in Russia, those Russians just didn't know they weren't allowed to buy them...)

Heh, I've done stop motion animation. No fucking way would kids have the skills, patience, and attention span to do even that level of quality >.<

Wow, how did I miss this one?


You're right, there are 4 of them. According to the wiki link, they are Conservative Statism (communists), actual communists, nationalist imperialists (communists), and democratic socialists (communist lite). They all seem to have the same interests though (nationalism, socialism, and imperialism)


Only because they were attacked, invaded, and occupied by theirs for 70 years. Can't blame them for being a little nervous, can you?


I guess Crimea and the troops invading eastern Ukraine is legal? Then again, when you have a one party system that makes everything it wants to do legal, this point is kinda moot.



Really? Then who's this guy? https://www.google.com/search?q=putin+in+camo&client=tablet-android-google&rlz=1Y3KTZR_enUS595US595&espvd=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sboxchip=Images&sa=X&ei=Dxj-U976MpCdygT0q4CQBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=800&bih=1232


Most of "federal TV channels?" Did you mean to say federal? And most of the media under Hitler was privately owned, but that doesn't mean they weren't careful about what they reported, if they knew what's good for them. Hell, Fox News is privately owned, and is a blatantly obvious media arm of the Republican party here in US. So just because you are privately owned, doesn't mean you are "free."

Russia has done WAY more to hurt that area than to improve the situation. It was Russian propaganda and fear mongering about Ukrainian government being russian-hating Nazis (when in reality Nazis got less than 2% of the vote) that riled up the separatists in the first place. If it wasn't for Russia, this war would never have happened in the first place. And now that Russia has started a war, and caused the deaths of hundreds of people and destruction of hundreds of homes, they are doing a little bit to fix the problem that they caused in the first place. Except that they are still spreading propaganda and fear mongering, still stoking the war enthusiasm, and still giving weapons to rebels who are "taking over" towns instead of "liberating" and recruiting them.

Are they surrounded by volunteers???

Ukraine "winning" this war only means that Ukraine is left alone by Russia. Russia winning means it invades and annexes big chunks of Ukraine. Were you guys rooting for US to win the war in Iraq to free their citizens from their evil government too?

Wow, you guys are nuts. First Ukrainian president was being a dicktator, was deposed, and replaced by populist government, so you call the new government dictators. Then Ukrainians resoundly voted against the Nazi party, giving it las than 2% of the vote, so you claim that everyone in government is nazis , then Russia spends months pumping out propaganda and getting busted for it (doctored photos, lies that were debunked, and even planting a virus in the voting software that would have made the Nazi guy win with a specific percent of the vote, and after Ukraine found and neutralized the virus, reporting that the Nazi did win with that percent of the vote, despite him getting less than %2). Then Russia rolled in GRAD and fired it at a whole bunch of Ukrainian troops and civilians, and you are saying that it was Ukraine being Genocidal? And it was Ukraine that shot down the airline? What is this, opposite world? If Russia drives in with a massive force of tanks, blows Kiev to bids, then drives in a nuke, spends a week setting it up, and then sets it off to wipe Ukraine from the face of the earth, you guys will say that Ukraine rolled in their own tanks and wiped themselves out of existence too? Godamn, what kind of massive brain damage or psychological abuse does one need to have to get to your level?