If we are talking shipping boxes, gotta dig up this old gem on the quality of KNC's boxes from October  omfg |
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Knc only have like 2000 neptunes? Only additional 6ph. Thats assuming both batches
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I think it's perfectly okay for bitmain to mine before selling and shipping. It's not like you paid them money for a preorder and they use your money to build miners, mine on them, then ship it to you months late.
Bitmain is different than other ASIC's companies. They are trying to setup a win-win situation for themselves and customers. Sounds good to me.
Agreed. They are the fairest asic company I have dealt with. One of the few that actually has product on hand to sell. I think the s1 will go down in history as the last great asic machine for the masses. I should edit the wiki later this summer. |
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Holy Crap the network just jumped 3.5 PH in the last half hour
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There is one variable missing from your equation that is very important.
The cost of the mining equipment. With this variable added it seems we are already at the point of the no sum game, at least for the retail and commercial miners. Manufacturers might have another 30-45 days because they can mine at the manufactured cost of the machines. Even for them it will start being unprofitable past 15 billion difficulty.
If I understand Puppet's graph correctly, each curve assumes a different cost per terrahash of mining rigs. I do agree that even the players who make their own rigs based on their own ASICs are going to feel the crunch soon. And that's why I ask... what now? Something has to break. But what? And in what direction? I am this thinking that it will be like any other example of centralization. Bad for most...good for a few and generally devastating for the economy involved. ASICs will not be usable by anyone without a commercial or industrial service which will drive the price down. This will in turn decimate consumer demand which is actually a massive segment of the bit coin economy. And alot of asic companies will stop making machines because of low demand, and negative return on investment as electricity will cost more than the btc it mines. |
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Thats the nature of the beast these days and there is nothing we can do about it. ASIC manufacturers can make more money mining than they can selling their equipment...off bitmain topic, but wait for the KNC scrypt miners, KNC will mine with them until the LTC difficulty becomes so high, then offload them onto the customers with little to no hope of ROI...
They didn't do that with the Oct/Nov batches of Jupiters & Saturns. Why do you think they would with the scrypt ones? They didn't do it then because they needed to build credibility to start the ponzi scheme. Now they have good reputation they can take 25 million in neptune orders and max out the time frame. Alot of people were bitching so they made a new scheme with scrypt miners. The only catch is no refunds. So for those who dont know that means they can basically hold your money forever. |
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Sit back and watch the fireworks 4th of july.
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Because it cost $600-700 to ship 2nd day air and there are custom charges too. They dont get charged for customs as far as I know, and shipping a S2 from china doesnt cost nearly that much via UPS. There are heavy customs charges for European customers. You guys dont appreciate the 2nd day shipping service Bitmain provides, it cost almost the same to ship s1 as the actual cost to manufacture, so profit margins are slim. For s2 I dont know the weight, say it is 14kg: An example: ship to US. $584 usd for 8am deliver, for end of day delivery is $494 usd. 2 day shipping. Shipping USPS is cheaper but they dont have 2 day service, only 3-5 day and thats about $210. Going to Europe and England is alot of customs duties. PS. I had a small problem with one of my s1 before but since it still worked 100% I declined to ship it back for service because shipping would have cost a ton (even the slowest way), and I would have lost valuable time mining. Thanks for your post. If all of it is true we have clear proof they using miners for more than just testing to cover costs. And that's why miners are coming dusted, overclocked etc. Sad only that bitmain posing as company who always deliver on time but actually doing same stuff as others. Mining with customers gear and than once they finish with it just passing to them. I do like bitmain and im really pleased with their service but my last order was dissapointing experience. I think we cant say they are mining with customers gear unless they are using pre-order money. Unlike bfl and knc. I guess it is their gear and they are allowing the public to buy some of it when it is available for purchase?? |
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Because it cost $600-700 to ship 2nd day air and there are custom charges too. They dont get charged for customs as far as I know, and shipping a S2 from china doesnt cost nearly that much via UPS. There are heavy customs charges for European customers. You guys dont appreciate the 2nd day shipping service Bitmain provides, it cost almost the same to ship s1 as the actual cost to manufacture, so profit margins are slim. For s2 I dont know the weight, say it is 14kg: An example: ship to US. $584 usd for 8am deliver, for end of day delivery is $494 usd. 2 day shipping. Shipping USPS is cheaper but they dont have 2 day service, only 3-5 day and thats about $210. Going to Europe and England is alot of customs duties. Um. I know exactly how much it costs to ship the S1/S2 from China to the US, I ve received well over 2k of them. Also you cant get 2 day air from china, they use Express Saver witch is technically up to 3 business days but no guarantees. Bitmain doesnt pay the EU customs- its paid by the receiver. Correct no 2 day. I was also using retail rates. Yes commercial has Big Discounted shipping. We had UPS too, I know there are alot of volume discounts especially for non-ground deliveries. Shipping is a major cost though. As to the original question why local market is slightly cheaper. Less hassle with shipping and tracking i guess. Or easier to wash the money. Im sure paying in rmb is more discount also. |
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Because it cost $600-700 to ship 2nd day air and there are custom charges too. They dont get charged for customs as far as I know, and shipping a S2 from china doesnt cost nearly that much via UPS. There are heavy customs charges for European customers. You guys dont appreciate the 2nd day shipping service Bitmain provides, it cost almost the same to ship s1 as the actual cost to manufacture, so profit margins are slim. For s2 I dont know the weight, say it is 14kg: An example: ship to US. $584 usd for 8am deliver, for end of day delivery is $494 usd. 2 day shipping. Shipping USPS is cheaper but they dont have 2 day service, only 3-5 day and thats about $210. Going to Europe and England is alot of customs duties. PS. I had a small problem with one of my s1 before but since it still worked 100% I declined to ship it back for service because shipping would have cost a ton (even the slowest way), and I would have lost valuable time mining. |
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Because it cost $600-700 to ship 2nd day air and there are custom charges too. |
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They will go. They are serious, not like Knc, the cheap bastards.
yes. and knc the new bfl lol |
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knc is a joke. They are the new bfl. Just finalizing the design after taking 25 million in pre order money last year. If neptunes come end of june buyers are fcked with the difficulty |
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Now what?....I will tell you what.
The smart residential miners are closing up shop this summer because before the end of the year no one in a house will be able to make money.
The smart commercial miners are already planning their exit strategy for the end of 2015.
The smart industrial miners are making connections with governments and banks for when mining becomes 100% centralized.
Mining is pretty well over folks...most people just don't realize it yet.
I have to disagree with everything you said. PUE of home miners = 1.03 PUE of industrial miners = 1.3-1.5 How can you speak for "smart miners" without being one? I agree there are retail miners. Commercial. And manufacturers. I know of 1 big maker selling the farms now to exit by xmas. |
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The sp30 comes in august. By then with 22 billion difficulty will roi about $2200
That is if the don't delay it (which they most likely will). It will never ROI, so this would be a bad investment. and I doubt they will hit the target of only using 2400-2500 watts |
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The sp30 comes in august. By then with 22 billion difficulty will roi about $2200
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I believe they are happy with the their ROI.
Surely had made calculations for 20% increase every time before they made the project.
Everything less than 20% makes them even happier.
They will definetely have huge profits.
Without a doubt. They started early and chose the best chips possible at that time. I see independent farms struggling in the future though. As difficulty rises it will be too expensive to run them. |
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Thats the problem, too many people are worried about efficiency by the time it takes to make a design 20-30% more efficient other companies are pushing out what they have and pushing the hashrate 5x. Thats why btc mining will meet an inflection point very soon and the arms race will have to slow down with the pot of gold harder to get. Wouldnt make sense to spend 10 million to mine 1 million. Buy the coins is better.
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I bet we will stick to 28nm for the whole year.
Nobody achieved asic of 20nm so far.
The company shipping the most miners out now are still on 55nm too |
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The problem is the chips wont be getting much faster. 20nm chips is about as far as they will go for quite some time. My prediction is you won't see 10TH rigs till next year
What if we get to 1nm? Then all we can do is build ridiculously large rigs with loads of chips in them, so it has more hashrate. we won't get to even 18 in the near future besides the fact it will be too expensive. On top of that difficulty would be over 1 trillion. So what if it's too expensive? You know that all manufacturers price the devices too high, and its actual manufacturing cost is much lower? They can simply use them to mine themselves, and literally grab the whole network. When difficulty reaches about 15 billion which will be soon, that is close to the actual cost of machines now. About $600 per TH. If they cant make profit mining or reselling equipment capital spending on research and development will slow down or stop. Alot of asic companies will disappear by the end of this year. |
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