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1701  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Mempool.Space accelerator service on: May 20, 2023, 02:32:39 PM
Can anyone explain how it technically works?

Simple!
Foundry USA which is the biggest mining pool right now, and the one that sponsored mempool.space with both money and hardware is now planning on offering the same thing as ViaBtc does but through mempool.space . As you can see the block that confirmed it was mined by Foundry , but it was a coincidence they mined one right then, probably they've done more instances of the videos till they got one right!

Btw, their new feature seems to not be counted by the explorer, it still shows the fee span as 86 - 401 sat/vB despite it being 1 - 401 in reality.
1702  Economy / Economics / Re: Argentina raises interest rate to 97% as it struggles to tackle inflation on: May 20, 2023, 02:04:52 PM
You've mixed things up a bit, because what does celsius have to do with interest rates, unless you think some people got a fever from a 6% increase Roll Eyes

Maybe it's Fahrenheit?  Roll Eyes
Quite the coincidence but 97F is around the normal human body temperature, so, it makes sense, they are heating up the workers to be more productive!  Grin

anyone who wants to be saved should leave such a country as soon as possible.

How about not, people who have f**** their own country with their stupid votes should stay there rather than go to a different country and do the same, but it's a bit too late, it's already happening as I see the ones fleeing collapsing countries for a better life here advocating for the same stuff that made them flee in the first place.
1703  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Is cryptocurrency a financial pyramid on: May 20, 2023, 01:02:53 PM
Bitcoin doesn’t need increasingly more demand to get a larger price. Scarce supply plays a huge role in the middle of all this. Supply gets more scarce, miners keep mining, price needs an increase for mining to continue to be worth it. Will I continue to pay double or more for Bitcoin after next halving? Yes. Will others do the same? Yes! Because you get the idea that Bitcoin simply becomes harder and more costly to mine.

You have just described the growing demand!
And no, as with any other thing out there, be it an asset, a commodity, a metal, oil, real estate, jpg monekys or bitcoin they all need more demand in order for the price to grow. How could the price even go up when there would be fewer people with less money buying than people selling?
No matter how great Bitcoin is it still needs to abide to the laws of economics.

So I had to bring this to the forum to know if you guys also think, cryptocurrency is some ways a financial pyramid.
Let's discuss please

You've been around this forum for almost a year and you seriously, seriously!!!! want to discuss this here?
Besides, just a quick search and I've found a ton of topics with the same thing, why not express your fears there?

How do I convince people that Bitcoin isn't a financial pyramid
Bitcoin Exceptionalism: Why Should this Pyramid-Ponzi Not end Like all Others??



1704  Economy / Economics / Re: Argentina raises interest rate to 97% as it struggles to tackle inflation on: May 20, 2023, 12:52:44 PM
Is it really with a feeling of siam and raising interest rates is the solution to reduce inflation? The interest rates strategy is good to combat inflation in the long run, but when a recovery does not occur in the market for two consecutive two, the more interest rate will put more fire on the oil.

It worked for the US it worked for Europe despite being in the small single-digit area, it has been proven a lot of times during the last century and there is little to debate, making money more expensive for borrowers drives down consumption and inflation, it's simply economics.

What is your recommendation to countries in such cases?

In Argentina's case?
Pretty simply, make a list of all the things that have been done by the government since the 50s last century, and don't do any of them again!
It will end far better than the current path. But more realistically, just flee the country, it's doomed to be in a perpetual loop of crisis.

The main cause of inflation is because a country is depending on other countries too much, depending on their services and products. The countries that is having inflation use more of their foreign reserves to buy from other countries and they increase the price of the local currencies to make the foreign currencies stronger and higher in price. Turkey dependent on other countries in Europe and other countries is the main cause of their problem.

Then, why is Japan not experiencing inflation despite being dependent on imports and why is the US having inflation when, d'oh, they can just print it?
Besides, how could Turkey be 20 times more dependent on imports than all the countries in Europe?
Inflation is simply a cause of more demand and less offer, we have just entered a period of consumption after the lockdowns and the industry with the broken logistics chains can't revamp production as easily as customers decide to spend money.
1705  Economy / Economics / Re: Helpful mineral resources on: May 20, 2023, 12:28:19 PM
This is another example of how the actual population is the one deciding the fate of a country
- you can have billions in resources, but that's not like those were given to you or you earned them somehow, it's just that in the lottery of life, you were born there and not on a completely different continent, so one shouldn't feel entitled just by that
- you can have almost no resources but ingenuity born out of shortages will help you way more than just having your meal dropping on your head every day, see how Japan industrialized itself

Besides, since the discussions start with we have resources, we need to be wealthy, It is clear how this will go long term even if those resources will be exploited, a classic example of Dutch disease where everyone would simply depend on the price of minerals on the markets.

Wishes have no place here, as they stand against the economic launches of companies that make commercial profits from those cheap raw resources. Even if governments decide that, some countries will prevent them, as is happening in some African countries, as they cannot create their own currency and all of their local currencies are printed in France.

And the ability to print money has been always a double-edged sword, look at what this did to the Zimbabwe dollar, the Sudanese pound, the Naira, and the SAR rand, almost all of the currencies have lost 80% vs the dollar, while the CAF, it was 0.0019 in 2003 it's 0.0017 now 20 years later.
1706  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Algorithm for selecting a low-fee transaction from the mempool on: May 19, 2023, 03:03:27 PM
So you say it is purely a greedy algorithm?

It's a free market algorithm.
There are more people who want a confirmed tx than space available and since there is no other way to select tx that won't be abused by spammers and make thinks far worse this is it!

I'm pretty sure you would also sell your coins to the one offering $22.5 k when you have offers for 26.5k just because the other guy has been waiting for days for a customer!Right?

What I am asking is what algorithm miners/mining pools typically follow.

They all follow it, one exception to the rule is viabtc which allows up to 100 tx/h submitted on their website in the next block, but with their own rules, under 0.5 kb and over 10sat/b.
1707  Economy / Exchanges / Re: Bittrex to shut its U.S operations on: May 19, 2023, 12:11:28 PM

How?

I have already mentioned it in this post.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5447061.msg62196665#msg62196665

This is only my own speculation, however, the reason why I speculated this is from how we have witnessed the SEC regulates traditional securities. Everything uncle Gary is trying to impose on crypto are based on regulations which might be obsolete.

In any case, I agree that this is only my own assumption. However, if it is the right assumption, does it not kill innovation?

Again, what innovation?
You could have given a real example where a company forced to take care of customers money can't innovate anymore cause for sure I haven't heard of one in my whole life.

Every single time that we have things that regulate financial companies and customer care there is this thing how this is bad for crypto for some reason when the whole thing shouldn't have existed in the first place, the whole deal of not your keys not your coins.

All the complains essentially boil down to one thing, people will not be able to invest in crypto freely because of a fee and somehow this will kill...omg!
How easy is for a guy in Kiawabuga to buy Tesla or Tsmc shares? Did it kill innovation?
Did any of those Icos that burned billion had any real life real product proven innovation?

How can normal companies invent millions of things and suddenly because crypto companies are required to deposit safely customers funds they are getting lobotomized.
Common, this is just bs and propaganda from exchanges that, like davef said, have no books and have no idea where customers money really is.




1708  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Are you doing this as a Bitcoin miner also? on: May 18, 2023, 06:01:20 PM
I noticed that they don't mine in a bear market

If people wouldn't be mining in a bear market then bitcoin would have stopped existing a long time ago, after the bear market in 2013, 2017 or the last one. Where did you even get this idea from? Does this look like miners stopped mining?
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-hashrate.html#3y

Because some people invested in gear at the wrong time and need to shut down when the revenue is lower it doensn't mean it's a trend, it's simply economics, the ones doing stupid investments are paying the price.

they always buy their asic miners after Bitcoin halving

Lol, no!
Bear markets are when you buy gear as the prices go down exponentially.
A s19 used to cost 7k in 2021, now you can get it go $1k.

My question. Is are people doing this?

No! Miners stop mining when the revenue is lower than the costs, a bear market can trigger this but even prolonged periods of up and downs can do the same, rising energy bills can do this also, in my case for example where I downsized my mini farm because my profits were dust.
A bear market can be the trigger but at the same time better prices don't always mean better revenue, 2020 or 2023, 10 or 27k now, and the income per th/s is still 8 cents in both cases.
1709  Economy / Reputation / Re: Is ItsCrafty a bought account? on: May 18, 2023, 01:59:03 PM
But crafty's active until 2022 and I don't see anything password or email change. crafty's claimed he's from US, he posted it on 2018, while ItsCrafty is from Pakistan.

Same for ItsCrafty, he also mentioned he's from the US when he was buying hardware in 2017
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2437053.msg24979954#msg24979954
Obviously, it's not the original owner behind it, no way possible.

Anyhow, I don't know why we should still discuss reputation if indeed he was found out with plagiarism, there is only one outcome once that is proved, the whole owner change thing becomes irrelevant when the account is banned.
1710  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Thinking of creating a discord server and send signals that we feel are legits on: May 18, 2023, 01:47:07 PM
My friend and I have been actively trading futures for over a year, and we've had some good results. We believe we can help others navigate the crypto market with our expertise.

Ok, let me be completely blunt about this!
You've earned money from your "info", you made profits and now you're willing to invest hours of time-consuming work, pay for resources and stuff, deal with others, customers, take payments all that.....for the love of the community? Yeah right!
If you're still going to charge others for your "info" why not use that for yourself and make profit far easier and with fewer headaches?

Still, earning trust and building a community is going to be quite complex 

It is pretty simple, you just have to prove that your "signals" are not just pump and dumps schemes like the rest of the 100% services out there, where the actual users are just used to unload useless tokens on him. Just like the users above said, you want to earn trust and post a few of your signals here, but obviously before the pump or dump happens, and not 10k volume coins either, cause otherwise you will be just one of the rest and we already have way too many.

1711  Economy / Economics / Re: Sanctions at work:Russia posts its second highest deficit in the post-Soviet era on: May 18, 2023, 01:24:08 PM
And here we are again, right after being told that the deficit was a fluke, that it's some state business with taxes and other bla bla that the deficit will be covered, and that Russia's economy will keep grow when in reality:

Russia Budget Deficit Hits $45 Billion, Exceeding Full-Year Goal
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-05-11/russia-budget-gap-hits-45-billion-exceeding-full-year-goal

Russia's Economy Contracts 1.9% In First Quarter
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/russian-economy-shrank-1-9-161523790.html

Love how Europe is sinking although it records growth while Russia becomes a superpower while in a complete recession.
But, yeah, reality and propaganda can't show the same picture, ever!!!!
1712  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Exciting New App for Bitcoin - Seeking Honest Reviews! on: May 18, 2023, 12:53:10 PM
This can't be really called an app, it's just a bunch of info and links, and not-so-good info and not-so-good links either.

I don't know where it pulls this info from or if OP is the author but there is a mess of everything there, for example, hey call Coinbase and Mycelium hot wallets, and when it goes into details it says stupid things like this:
"Bitcoin addresses always begin with numbers 1 or 3". Common!
or
"A hardware wallet can be used for storing large amounts of bitcoin for the long term, while a mobile or desktop wallet is typically used for moving bitcoin between exchanges."

Not to mention that LocalBitcoins is a recommended exchange, lol!

In short, not so much of an "app" and you could probably have found all that info by just opening bitcoin.org in your browser.

Smart Bitcoin Investments is designed to keep you informed and up to date on the subject of investing in bitcoin today.

When your info is 1-3 years old seems like you need to be kept updated first.


1713  Economy / Exchanges / Re: Bittrex to shut its U.S operations on: May 18, 2023, 11:50:40 AM
That's very bad. If the SEC achieves this, crypto would become no different than traditional stocks. After all, one of the main advantages of crypto is financial sovereignity and personal freedom. By leaving crypto funds to an "approved custodian", we're introducing the middleman into the crypto/Blockchain space. Of course, crypto will still be decentralized. But most on/off ramps are controlled by centralized exchanges, so people won't have a way to buy/sell crypto without dealing with the "middleman issue".

Have you actually read what this is about?
What freedom and sovereignty are you talking about when this is clearly about

Quote
The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) went too far when it proposed a new rule demanding investment firms safeguard all of their clients’ assets – including crypto – with approved custodians, according to an array of critics not often in alignment.

crypto assets you have deposited on a 3rd party like an exchange?
You already introduced this middleman when you deposited the coins, this will guarantee you that another 3AC or FTX won't happen, it's not like they are demanding to put your personal assets with a custodian. They are requiring businesses that operate with a crypto currency to use one to safe guard user deposits.

I'm hoping Congress makes a vote to remove Gary Gensler from office.

Why? Because half of the world can't read 3 words into a headline?

Quote
SEC Chair Gary Gensler, who said the rule “would help ensure that advisers don’t inappropriately use, lose, or abuse investors’ assets,” was quick to point out the crypto platforms that now maintain custody of investors’ assets don’t fit in.

Completely outrageous! Such a disgrace! Incomprehensible!  /s

@Abiky. The approved custodian rule will kill the innovation of real ownership that it brings in web3.

How?



1714  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Ledger Recovery - Send your (encrypted) recovery phrase to 3rd parties entities on: May 16, 2023, 08:04:12 PM
Muhahahaha, what took them so long?
Just selling devices isn't making enough money, you don't make enough money out of selling a smartphone you make a ton on the apps the people are buying, so just as Mercedes wants a monthly fee for allowing you to fully use the car, how about Ledger charging you some monthly fee to lose all your money? Having people being their own banks and independent is simply not profitable, let's milk the cow while we have more and more users that are gullible enough to think that 9.99$ protects their money way better than they could do themselves.

Quote
Coincover provides the gold standard in digital asset security, addressing the most significant barrier to mainstream adoption: trust. If wallet access is lost, Coincover offers encrypted and military-grade storage for retrieving the key.

How many times have we heard about "gold standard" "military grade" and all those bs words only to find out a few years later the whole security was more like  Swiss standard Emmental cheese?

What is going to be interesting to see is how this will unfold if we fast forward one year or two, the ones that know what this shit means will stop buying, but...the people who already bought one and are throwing it out of the window weren't in their soon to be again customer base anyhow, so a backslash from the old guard won't affect them so much, while the new generation that still believes in the #SAFU bs is way more numerous.
Interesting times, a ton of popcorn is needed as I'm pretty sure we're in for even dumber things down the road.
1715  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Transaction stuck from bitcoin wallet app because 2 low fee. Help on: May 16, 2023, 06:11:00 PM
If I'm right then you won't be able to make a CPFP because only the receiver can do that.

The tx OP mentioned:
https://mempool.space/tx/159e82ff52bc29286b123102d0c4786c386bccb5a52bbfd20b08b0d796ea16b4
was made 6 days ago
Three days ago somebody already made a CPFP for it
https://mempool.space/tx/3fd47e9b5b569d7bc13509f1d6a1ed9f51e5938ac3d104d50f4815e308e27970
but even so, the bumped fee is still too low, from 2 to 13 sat

Since OP didn't mention doing anything, I suppose this was the other guy doing it, so probably an automatic system, one can still hope that during the weekend the whole thing will get confirmed and they will not demand some extra $ for the exchange rate change between the payment days and the day it got confirmed.

If indeed it's a payment processor like Coingate, they will most likely return the amount minus fees immediately after it gets confirmed, this happened to me once because of the gap of 1 hour between blocks that screwed all the fees!
1716  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Miners Should Consider the Lower Transaction Fees on: May 16, 2023, 05:27:21 PM
Miners Should Consider the Lower Transaction Fees

And people transferring coins should also pay once in a while my electrical bill, wouldn't that be fair?  Cheesy

There are 1000 topics with 1 million answers on what happens when the block reward is gone so miners will survive on fees and everyone says the network will be secure, there won't be any problem, and the miners will be happy with the fees, but when briefly for 5-10 blocks the fees hit the same level as the reward everyone as saying they will not pay that much! How is this going to work?
Do you want cheap transactions and a system that requires billions for an attacker to even try damaging it? You can't have both!

Now if you send 0.01 BTC to Alex with the fee rate of 5 sats/vByte and I also send that the same amount of bitcoin 0.01 BTC to Favour with the fee rate of 30 sats/vByte and which you did the transaction before me but base on it that your fee rate is small and mine is big so they mine first before yours and if there is any other person who send again with high fee they would still mine the person own again and all these while you are waiting, and if you can not wait you can bump the fee but if you don't have coins to bump the fee again what will you do? So you are to wait for weeks. This is what I am saying, they should also consider the lower fees because they don't know what is happening from those people end. Most of them are even frustrated on this issue of waiting.  Well I understand you to some extent.

If miners would consider low fees based on let's say the time of the tx, which is not really a reliable method but let's get with this:
An attacker will simply generate 500 000 transactions, and pay a little over 3 cents per tx, that's $15000 a day and the whole day miners will just mine his tx and nobody else's. So for half a million a month, you will make the chain unusable!

Let the lower transaction should be charged less and the very big whale transactions should be done according to the unit. Don't equalize everyone as one and charge them equal.

First, Bitcoin has nothing in common with socialism, so the whole charge of the rich more and giving the poor for free is simply not doable here.
Second, If I make a tx in which I spend out of 1 BTC 0.0005 for something and the rest goes to a different address of mine, not the changed address, how am I going to be taxed? For the whole 1 BTC or for the 0.0005?

Sorry but BTC is the perfect example of a free market where the law or demand and offer are set in stone.
If you want progressive taxation, use Western Union!
1717  Economy / Economics / Re: How do banks generate income? on: May 16, 2023, 04:57:54 PM
When a bank lends you money for buying a house that money is directly spent as it leaves the bank to the previous owner, you can't do fractional reserves when you're paying money, you can only do that with reserves, that's why they are called so and not fractional loans.
If you don't understand that it's not money, but credit, even if you take out the bills and pay for the house with bills, it's not worth arguing about.

So you say that credit is not real money?
So if I take a loan from a bank, this loan is fake money, I buy a car from you the money you get is fake money?
Seriously, stop! The bank is loaning money that it has on deposit, it's real money, that's what's said even in the link you've quoted:

Quote
Fractional reserve banking is a system in which only a fraction of bank deposits are required to be available for withdrawal. Banks only need to keep a specific amount of cash on hand and can create loans from the money you deposit. Fractional reserves work to expand the economy by freeing capital for lending. Today, most economies' financial systems use fractional reserve banking.

They lend you the money others have deposited, they don't make money out of thin air, the only thing that is wrong with this system is that the money the first person deposited is now tied to the ability of the creditor to pay back his loan, you even have mocacinno example above which should be as clear as the sky is blue!

10 years on the forum and you say that the system against which bitcoin was created is impossible.

No, I'm saying you don't understand the system for which Bitcoin was created as an alternative!
Obviously, it has its flaws because there is a need of trusting somebody and taking actions based on predicting future events like the ability of the borrower to pay back, but the rest is just an exaggeration.
Bitcoin eliminates the need for trust is a depositing scenario, it can't supplement the loan part in no way possible!

It is about the fact that with the million deposit the bank can create money (i.e. credit) out of thin air depending on the cash ratio.

How in god's name you create money out of thin air when you actually said it yourself you need 1 million $ first ?  Roll Eyes


1718  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: OG Bitcoin Wallet Addresses Suddenly Active - Are they being hacked? on: May 16, 2023, 10:56:07 AM
I did a quick search though and found this relevant article: https://cryptoslate.com/old-wallets-activate-sparking-fears-of-mass-hack-targeting-bitcoin-veterans/

Could it be that folks have figured out how to crack the codes on these old private keys? IF so, they are seeing some massive pay days, EH?

Whale alert...d'oh!

So first transaction mentioned would be this:
https://mempool.space/tx/bb40bc71a6c551ef2c3b767094e2225685a8f690877edc6bb97b33035e65d866
what hacker withdraws 400 BTC and leaves the other 600 BTC in the compromised address?

Second one:
https://mempool.space/tx/859878cbe79f7cd4a2be5d4c5e2f80bbe5230a1e33ed3b0318b75288acbf721f
So the hackers decided to take only 6071 coins and leave there coins worth $108,448,000!

Do this sound to you like some "hacks" happening?



1719  Economy / Economics / Re: How do banks generate income? on: May 16, 2023, 10:11:31 AM
So, from the net view of the bank:
  • A has a positive balance of +$200.000
  • B has a negative balance of -$180.000
  • C has a positive balance of +$180.000
  • D has a negative balance of -$162.000
  • E has a positive balance of +$162.000
  • F has a negative balance of -$145.000
  • G has a positive balance of +$145.000

So, with one deposit of $200.000, at this point in time, person A,C,E and G have a total of $687.000
Person B,D and F have a total negative balance of -$487.000

A,C, E and G get 1% intrest whilst B, D and F have to pay 3%.
As long as B,D and F repay the debt, the final balance of the bank is fine.

Exactly, and if it weren't for B,C,D,E,F,G  the bank would have had $200.000 and zero negative balances, which is exactly what $687k-$487k does at the end of the line. I like the ending, the bank is fine as long as, everyone that borrows the money pays back, this is quite interesting and I'm sure you will agree with it, as long as customers pay back their debts the banks are fine.
A scenario that will end badly in your friend's situation too if he decides he's not paying back the money you lent him while the housing market crashes!!

As soon as they don't, the system is in trouble

Don't you find it at least one bit ironic that almost everyone is angry about banks not guaranteeing their deposits and how the system is broken when the trigger is actually the people who took out loans that are not willing to give back the money they owe? I find it quite a lot more than just one bit ironic!

But anyhow, how could a bank that sets aside user deposits even work? How would they be able to give loans and why would they even pay you interest when they can't use that money and they have to keep it ready for withdrawal at any time? Why would they even take deposits at all?


1720  Economy / Economics / Re: How do banks generate income? on: May 16, 2023, 08:26:57 AM
It is accurate, you have misunderstood. mocacinno is saying that banks create that money out of thin air, not that the money created does not exist. When commercial banks lend money by creating it out of thin air with a lower reserve ratio, in some cases 2.5% or even 0%, they are creating money out of thin air even though the money they send you is real.

Sorry, but what you describe it's still impossible and it's not fractional reserve.
When a bank lends you money for buying a house that money is directly spent as it leaves the bank to the previous owner, you can't do fractional reserves when you're paying money, you can only do that with reserves, that's why they are called so and not fractional loans.

Second, what happens when you're paying back your since this would mean the virtual cash gets erased and replaced by real money?  Wink
Because otherwise, you would have a bank full of real money and virtual money back by nothing, when actually there is real money backing it up!


If my understanding of fractional reserve is correct, i might have explained it better....

I asked chatGPT for an ELI5 about fractional reserve banking in regards to the housing market, and this is what it came up with... To the best of my understanding, this is correct.
The bottom line is that, in this example, there was an initial deposit of $20.000 (for example, on somebody's saving account), and in the end the banks manage to lend out (and collect intrest on) $200.000 with only the $20.000 in the bank account to back up all those loans. The person with the saving account gets intrest on the $20.000 whilst all the borrowers have to pay the bank intrest on $200.000.

No, the bank is not making 200 000 out of 20 000!
Just as in the exact line you've quoted from the answer chatgpt gave you the banks sometimes loan 90% of the deposits.
So in your case with a deposit of 20 000, the bank will be able to make a loan of only 18 000!
For a consequent loan, it needs another step, which chatgpt mentioned one line below, the cycle, for that person to deposit the said loan in the bank, which, let's get real is impossible and it makes no sense at all.

So A deposits 20 000.
B takes a 18 000 loan and deposits 18 000 in his house seller account!
C takes a 16 200 loan and deposits 16 200 in his house seller account!
D takes a 14 580 loan and deposits 14 580 in his house seller account!
None of the house sellers are taking a penny out of the bank!
Do you see this as actually happening in any economy or at least in 1% of consumer spending?

But wait, it's not even the 10x loan-to-deposit ratios, that cause
We have A,B,C,D deposits worth 68 780 we have 48 780 in loans and we have still 20 000 in cash since nobody took money out of this scheme.

Furthermore, how is that different from you having 200 000 loaned to your friend with no fractional reserves?
You have loaned him 200 000 and you won the rights to the house, the bank is indeed 180 000 short in cash, but has 180 000 on the loan it has given out! So fast forward ten years from now when the guy pays back his loan, what happens to the so called virtual money?
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