in the "official" thread i can speak also about sp20, sp30, sp31, psu's and whatever... every piece of gear even if not only just a speculation gets a thread..why not a clear sp50?..just asking You have touched a good point.Why? Agreed, Bitmain have individual hardware topics for there machines so why not with spondoolies? I also agree. Oh, but then it disrupts my master plan to overcome BFL thread and maybe even someday KNC (I wish...) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=76.0;sort=replies;desc  |
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OMG, I can't believe no one here has thought about this for 2 mins to think about this in a positive aspect & how its not a miner... & its not an IOT device, Well not in a sense that i see but a paid for service..... ( I can already here u all saying?  ? What the??? ) Isn't everyone rushing to get a Silk road / Ebay / Paypal service up & running?? https://openbazaar.org/Anyone??? Think about this..... BTC Fullnode + wallet + space for apps, My guess would be an ebay style marketplace & escrow. Think about loading the service across endless nodes & paying them a small amount to run (Hence the small miner) So Us$400 is entry to setup a distributed ebay style service & the miner is payback for running the service... This would get the service setup & running on lots of ip addresses saving them $$$$ on running the servers themselves, Leaving them just to run the backend & escrow service... I'm pissed i didn't think of this first & seems i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed why no one else here thought of it before me?? I don't know if it's sarcasm or not. Anyway: https://bitseed.org/product/core/ + Sidehack USB miner. |
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...
In a pack of 48 they're upwards of $400 per unit which is probably approaching $300 with Spondoolies quantities.
So that's $3,000 of PSUs. Shipping will almost certainly be palletised, those things are way too big and heavy to go through normal routes so that's a fair chunk but not really different to anyone else.
Regarding PSU cost, you don't have a clue. |
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vavooooom slight note for your webmaster: the specs page is still referring to the RockerBox, rather than the PickAxe  Fixed, thanks! |
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....... As usual, you are very well informed, Guy!  To be fair, with 0.16 J/GH this would be the most efficient chip in the wild so far. The 0.6V BM1384 value is just quadratic extrapolations of the 0.66V value. Try it, it fits perfectly. IMHO too perfect for a measured value. Anyway, 21 really screwed it up with the GH/mm2 value. In best case they have here about 2 GH/mm2 (for sure not with 0.16 J/GH). This is a good GH/mm2 value for 28nm, but for 22nm it should be 3 ... 4 GH/mm2. Otherwise this chip will be simply too expensive in production to be competitive for standard miners. You have got to stop thinking about conventional economics here. The IoT bandwagon is impervious to conventional economic considerations. After all, folks are going to just be so happy to pay an extra $25 for their light bulb, it doesn't matter if the ASIC price is a little high. The fact that it's going to be part of the IoT relieves it from those pesky metrics. If it's connected to the Internet, it MUST be great!!! Isn't Raspberry PI 2 + Sidehack's 1384 dongle is essentially the same for quarter of the price ? |
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Assuming 0.16 is bottom-clock efficiency, that puts it at about 10% better than BM1385. Not really revolutionary by comparison.
+1 21 1st gen was TSMC 40nm 21 2nd gen was Intel 22nm, power numbers of about 0.57 J/GH at nominal working point. 21 3rd gen was another Intel 22nm, they aimed for 0.22 J/GH according to their investors materials (taped out 24/8 2014, silicon was expected in November 2014) I believe this is the 3rd gen. It's very bad number for a Intel 22nn, which is FinFET process. A quote I liked from their presentation: "Approaching Moore's law: best efficiency is likely ~0.15 W/GH/s @ 14nm" So funny. I believe that they're working on TSMC 16nm, or Intel 14nm 4th gen. They're not doing custom design, taking a standard cell brute force approach. Look at the "ASIC Design Engineer" job description here: https://web.archive.org/web/20150821050459/https://21.co/#jobsPure waste of funds, IMHO. |
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Its not exclusive, I've had one for a few days Thank you for taking the time to review it Mane. Don't mind dogie, he doesn't like sharing attention. +1 |
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BM1385 is full custom, so is our 3rd gen.
So currently you are in the same team with Dogie, aren't you? (Bitmain team) No. btw: It seems that KNC finally started to deploy it's 16nm Interesting times ahead. |
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full custom, so is our 3rd gen. Speaking of which, is that still Pickaxe (80/20 custom/auto), or do I need to be adding a line to the wiki? On the BitFury end.. as 16nm is claimed to have taped out, is there any chance we can prise some more solid info on the 28nm chip? It's pipelined (unrolled) full custom. BitFury 16nm was indeed tapedout. I don't believe they'll release any info on their 28nm, seems they're following "The Art of War" |
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BitFury (Valery Nebesny) attempted to do async, domino logic 55nm 5 engine scrypt chip and failed.
That's actually incorrect info. You should sack the Mossad agent working for you There are two all important parameters in Bitcoin ASICs:
GH/mm^2 - Capex and J/GH - Opex
Glad you brought that up! GH/mm^2 + J/GH is exactly the game we've been winning since the FPGA era. With extreme design techniques, sub 0.1 J/GH is possible also on 28nm processes, the question is what will be the GH/mm^2 - miner cost.
What also counts is how much money you need to put down to have that chip hashing for you. I believe we're the leader in that as well. Whenever BitFury gives efficiency numbers (J/GH), they never give the all important GH/mm^2 numbers.
Why would we give such revealing information to our competitors? And I don't really understand why the end user even needs to know about this? He cares for $/GH and J/GH and delivery times. GH/mm^2 is engineering porn. Our figures are NSFW When they're selling hosted hash-rate of their 28nm machines to their customers, they claim the machine efficiency is 0.35 J/GH
Source? Pleasure to chat with you. - LightFury floorplan came from Valery himself. - The fact that it failed and the reason for its failure came from a designer known and respected by both parties. - The 0.35 J/GH number came from two different bulk customers. You have them signed on draconian NDA so I can't reveal their identity. Regarding GH/mm^2 (or $/GH/s): The moderate hash-rate increase due to your 28nm deployment might be due to two different reasons: - You reserve funds for your 16nm deployment - Your number are not that good |
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... Interesting, I didn't hear about BitFury's scrypt miners.. Were there any announcements? I remember epic fail with scrypt miners from Bitmain, when guys had pre-orders on their site and then said "ooops"  No, as I wrote it was a failed ASIC. |
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brontosaurus,
I got to work BitFury chips 55nm rev.1 at 0.4w/gh. I'm not a strong developer. Is not the limit.
These chips are fabulous and gorgeous. 55nm rev.2 even better. I have no doubt, that all this reality.
But now, non-BitFury miners in a bad position, because they have no chance to compete.
2Spondoolies-Tech,
I don't have this image. This 55nm? Or 28nm, 16nm?
IMHO. Now, as two years ago. The only key parameter - w/Gh.
My miners on BitFury chips 55nm rev1(2) successfully work all the time and will work much more. Energy efficiency greater than non-downclock Spondoolies-Tech LTD «RockerBox» or BM1384. GH/mm^2 - minor optimization. A3255 and A3233 better BF756C55 at Gh/mm^2. But... They are turned off. Energy consumption.
Currently we do not have the choice of equipment. KnC, BitFury, Spondoolies-Tech not for sale. Miners can not go far on old-technology in downclock chips.
I wrote that it's 55nm scrypt chip (failed) You're comparing full custom chips (BitFury rev1, rev2) to standard cell designs (RB, BM1384) BM1385 is full custom, so is our 3rd gen. |
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Well since you have grey hair for over 20 years you know that we don't live in a fair world: I see dogie as having +40 trust rating and he is complaining that he is not being paid as he should be. Not a fair world at all. Spondoolies did not pay me 0.12 BTC which they promised to pay me in November last year. What then to speak of even greater amounts. But since you announced here a long time ago , that Guy Is Your Friend , then your opinion is not particularly reliable. Don't know the reason we've missed it. PM your order number and address. Welcome back! Any word you can tell us on next gen? Will regular customer be able to buy? I'm still hoping so! Since we're merging with public company, I need to be careful with my public statements about our status and developments. Public statements need to be "edgarizer". All I can say is "soon" |
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Well since you have grey hair for over 20 years you know that we don't live in a fair world: I see dogie as having +40 trust rating and he is complaining that he is not being paid as he should be. Not a fair world at all. Spondoolies did not pay me 0.12 BTC which they promised to pay me in November last year. What then to speak of even greater amounts. But since you announced here a long time ago , that Guy Is Your Friend , then your opinion is not particularly reliable. Don't know the reason we've missed it. PM your order number and address. |
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Bit of a weird thread to bump, but I'll believe it when I see it. The last 3 chips have never been independently verified or even seen outside of a super farm.
Considering they make up nearly 1/3rd of the network alone .... thats evidence enough. Of power claims? Its only evidence that they have money, and $60M buys you a lot of miners and a lot of PR. Dogie is bang on the money here, this announcement by Bitfury is simply an exercise in misdirection and PR bullshit. They have had several attempts to make a really high efficiency chip and obviously don't know the recipe. It's easy to say 'my chip can do xJ/GH/sec' without revealing key factors like how big it is (very important), what voltage it runs at and the clock speed at the rated efficiency. In all fairness to Bitmain with their BM1385 they have fullfiled most of these conditions, but no mention of the die size as yet. To believe that Bitfury can go from an alleged 0.2 J/GH/sec in 28nm to 0.05 in 16nm is nonsense, unless they have very specific measurement points that bear no resemblance to actual operating conditions in practice. 16nm is not a magic bullet - at best you will get half of the power consumption of an existing 28nm design and maybe 2.5 - 3 x the transistor density, very much depending on your design and memory content. KNC tried this same trick with their solar chip, presumably to try to dissuade their competitors and this is more of the same. The only company that has ever been totally transparent in what they claim to be able to achieve in terms of power efficiency AND tell you how they actually achieved it (eg domino logic) is Spondoolies, and that's largely due to the collective industrial experience of their people and their attention to detail. I'm pretty damn sure that if they were still selling to the public they could come out with all kinds of data about what they could achieve and how they could do it, but they have wisely stayed out of this game and left it to the bullshitters. By the way, anyone every looked at the size of Bitfurys various 'boards' - they have an awful lot of people to pay......what on earth do they all do? Is this some kind of weird vanity project? brontosaurus, I always like to read your posts. A little tidbit I can share (not under any kind of NDA): BitFury (Valery Nebesny) attempted to do async, domino logic 55nm 5 engine scrypt chip and failed. Here is the chip floor plan:  I really liked George BS statement: https://twitter.com/BitfuryGeorge/status/639064051612524544There are two all important parameters in Bitcoin ASICs: GH/mm^2 - Capex and J/GH - Opex With extreme design techniques, sub 0.1 J/GH is possible also on 28nm processes, the question is what will be the GH/mm^2 - miner cost. Whenever BitFury gives efficiency numbers (J/GH), they never give the all important GH/mm^2 numbers. When they're selling hosted hash-rate of their 28nm machines to their customers, they claim the machine efficiency is 0.35 J/GH |
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I guess being private and all they don't really have to worry about posting any specs - nobody who could verify it anyway. Not suggesting that they are doing this, but in that position you can of course claim any efficiency you want, and with it maintenance/operating costs, that'll maximize profit.
Indeed. |
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I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would buy a "mining lightbulb". The economics are just NOT making any sense, even treating the thing as just a toy.
If they would put it on the market at prices comparable to a regular 'smartbulb', then treating it as such, I can see a market even among those who have no idea what Bitcoin mining is Bitcoin transaction verification services are
In other news, BitFury have revealed a bit more of their plans with regard to 16nm tech: http://www.8btc.com/bitfury-chinese-marketSome key points from that: - Plan to expand into non-Bitcoin computation-heavy industries
- Plan to expand into China and further into North America
- 16nm preliminary calculations: 5 times more efficient than 28nm*
- Aiming for 400Ph/s (roughly the current network capacity) 6 months after deployment
* Their claims on 28nm was 0.2J/Gh, which would make their claim for 16nm be 0.04J/GhNot much further detail on the bulb though Interesting, thanks. The article doesn't cover BitFury 28nm results. When they're selling hosted hash-rate, they're claiming efficiency of 0.35 J/GH for maintenance calculation. |
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