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1781  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement on: July 31, 2014, 10:09:03 PM
It is interesting, there are more substance and material in one development update from the Skycoin dev than combined in the top 20 coins on Bittrex. Similarly, the white paper on the gihub repo is a really innovative piece, I think it is in the league what we can see in the white paper of Ethereum's Vitalik Buterin and the yellow paper of Gavin Wood. I can't wait to see the actual implementation of Skycoin.
1782  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 31, 2014, 09:39:41 PM
I'm getting a little bit scared. 50% of my investment is lost. VRC features are beeing copied and the value of other coins explodes (cloak,rdd and others). Have we already seen the top value of VRC?
If I would have invested the 4 BTC in RDD at the same time, I would have 24 BTC now, so I only have 2.
I hope beeing patient is not a kind of stupidity.

Regards,
Michael

P.S.: I just looked in my wallet. I've got 0,4 VRC from the mining pool in the last 24 hours and 0,0 VRC from stakeing. So why should i keep the machines running? Sad

stop mining, bet you will continue to get payouts for a day or two after you stop, it takes time for the OBA to buy coins at best price and pay them out not to mention we have to wait for solved blocks to mature before they payout to get converted into VRC this has been stated AT LEAST 100 times here and on the IRC.

Also get out if you want, but look across the spectrum wheres all the volume? volume has disappeared across the WHOLE altcoin market and it would only take one whale to come in a buy up VRC to push price back to 50k because volume is so low. What little volume there is left is soaked up into the few "flavor of the week" coins which will in turn get dumped and then move onto the newest "flavor" in short don't agonize over P&D's you will lose far more money chasing the pumps then you would holding VRC longterm.

I can't tell you what to do with your own money but I can damn sure try to stress the market conditions to you, and right now market conditions suck for everyone (except the few P&D coins)

Nothing is wrong with the volume generally, at least the volume that could move Vericoin to 100K is obviously on the market. Investors just don't like this coin and even I still hold my vericoins I fully understand why there is no interest in vericoin lately and the interests have shifted to other probably better coins. Innovative coins, good news and exciting features (blockchain 2) are getting very nice volumes - see Viacoin. It is clear people who are interested in altcoins and investors think the current features like Veribit, Fiat in wallet are useless (otherwise they would invest), the fantasy about third world domination is baseless, also initiatives like the radio and silver coin which are good fun and great community projects but from investors' viewpoint such additions to the coin mean nothing. The regional representatives sounds good but will bring a combined of no more than 0.2 BTC from the Phillipines and Kenya, that's not going to make the coin stronger, and investors don't put money into a coin that executes such business plan.
Investors with real cash and BTC are interested in good news and usable features, Vericoin has none of them lately and therefore the price is low. This shouldn't be like this because even with the latest addition I don't think the Viacoin devs are a lot more competent than the Vericoin devs, Vericoin devs are perfectly capable to implement features that the market rewards with investment and hopefully they are going to start delivering good features and good news sooner than later.
1783  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 31, 2014, 09:03:11 PM
I'm getting a little bit scared. 50% of my investment is lost. VRC features are beeing copied and the value of other coins explodes (cloak,rdd and others). Have we already seen the top value of VRC?
If I would have invested the 4 BTC in RDD at the same time, I would have 24 BTC now, so I only have 2.
I hope beeing patient is not a kind of stupidity.

Regards,
Michael

P.S.: I just looked in my wallet. I've got 0,4 VRC from the mining pool in the last 24 hours and 0,0 VRC from stakeing. So why should i keep the machines running? Sad

I fully understand your concerns. I am a very big fan of this coin, I have lots of VeriCoin so I would really like to see the price is going up, but things are not going well with this coin.

Completely agree, I have offered my help for marketing issues, but I am still waiting for response from the devs. By the way I have sent you a message, I am not sure you have noticed...

Thanks, I have replied!
1784  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 30, 2014, 11:46:22 PM
I'm getting a little bit scared. 50% of my investment is lost. VRC features are beeing copied and the value of other coins explodes (cloak,rdd and others). Have we already seen the top value of VRC?
If I would have invested the 4 BTC in RDD at the same time, I would have 24 BTC now, so I only have 2.
I hope beeing patient is not a kind of stupidity.

Regards,
Michael

P.S.: I just looked in my wallet. I've got 0,4 VRC from the mining pool in the last 24 hours and 0,0 VRC from stakeing. So why should i keep the machines running? Sad

I fully understand your concerns. I am a very big fan of this coin, I have lots of VeriCoin so I would really like to see the price is going up, but things are not going well with this coin.
1785  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 30, 2014, 11:36:58 PM
I'm getting a little bit scared. 50% of my investment is lost. VRC features are beeing copied and the value of other coins explodes (cloak,rdd and others). Have we already seen the top value of VRC?
If I would have invested the 4 BTC in RDD at the same time, I would have 24 BTC now, so I only have 2.
I hope beeing patient is not a kind of stupidity.

Regards,
Michael

P.S.: I just looked in my wallet. I've got 0,4 VRC from the mining pool in the last 24 hours and 0,0 VRC from stakeing. So why should i keep the machines running? Sad

It's your money, but as I've stated before, I've not heard of anything wrong with VRC.  It's healthy, works well, good community, etc.  If you sell now, feel free to sell into my buys, but you would probably be selling at a low.

If you would be a big buyer the VeriCoin order book would not be a pathetic 15 BTC.
1786  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 27, 2014, 02:33:33 AM
Looks like the free market has indicated that the VRC price go down by about 50% since the last time I posted in this thread.

For me that is pretty telling. Of course some here will say "Yes I'm backing the truck up to buy moAR" or "people are just paying their bills".

Look at the market depth and you will see how flimsy the VRC market is. But to those who want to "believe" keep believing that the VRC devs tell you about how "we are not going to roll back the VRC block chain in the future".

Good luck to you VRC holders and let's revisit this post/thread in a year and see where things stand in comparison today.

Current price is: 0.00017149 BTC per VRC  Wink

I assume you don't own VeriCoin. So why do you feel that you need repeatedly emphasize here your low opinion on VeriCoin? I am sure everybody got your point already because you have pointed it out here about 32,733 times, and it is clear that in your opinion Vericoin is a very poor initiative, but why do you feel that you need to repeat this message again and again? Just asking :-))
1787  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 26, 2014, 02:10:57 AM
I think the most important and encouraging in the VeriCoin operation is that the devs are still interested in the project and working on adding new features. The price goes up and down, right now is down, but the hard work and the release of usable features will take care of the price increase. This is a legit dev team, as PNosker said they are real people building a real money. This transparency is a very unique attribute in the scam driven alt coin market.

Right now people are upset, but 50-100% price swing happens all the time even with real business operation. In the place Russia where I have been dealing/trading/funding IT, telecom and software companies I had experienced with a few 3000% price drop in the last 25 years, there were dead bodies all over the offices, so this is a very calm environment compared to that one, here is even the crypto-history maker scummer pumper WizRig is alive, so nothing dramatic happened here. Price drops are part of the business, even bitcoin has gone through several swing. Again, the hard work from the devs will take care of the price and the future of the coin still very bright.

Which is very encouraging to me that it seems the Devs are finally working on what really matters, the decentralized app feature. No one cares about VeriBit (why would anyone want it when we can pay with bitcoin, no wonder there is only 6 VeriBit users worldwide), the FIAT feature could be useful for a few people but nothing is innovative nor exciting in the FIAT feature, but a decentralized market place or exchange could be a game changer. Please focus on that and try to roll out at least a basic app that implements decentralized features. As you know there are incredible capable and smart people working on decentralized apps, Ethereum, Skycoin, even ViaCoin with the Counterparty inegration, etc., so the competition is fierce, that's why would be important that the Devs try to release at least a very basic but working decentralized app as soon as it is possible. As you know better than I do you compete with very smart guys like Dr. Wood from Ethereum http://www.gavwood.com/Paper.pdf , but if you have something that works (even if it is a very basic app) you can be the winner in this race.

There are many people like myself who invested a lot into VeriCoin, we are not overly worry about short term price changes and willing to invest lot more if things are going in the right direction. Please implement the decentralized feature and I guaranty you many more investment will come not from pumpers but from real investors.



That is a terrible mistake for nothing can lose more than 100%. That's tops.

You would understand that reading your post after that would be a waste of time, wouldn't you?

Agreed, but he made a point and everyone got it, pitty you are being either too dumb or too troll to stop reading past that point, he just made some really interesting points about minimum viable product and customer development in that and some recent posts. I think you are too "smart" to realize how dumb you are/seem sometimes, take it as you will.

If everyone "got it", what does it matter if I did or didn't.

Don't worry, I take your post for what it is: Inane stupidity. Pure and simple. Anything else to discuss?

Or what do you expect after posting what you chose to post, a bunch of flowers?

Well actually yes, WTF is inane stupidity, could you please at least learn how to correctly spell in your moronic posts? and BTW rocket scientist are you able explain why you say what you say like an adult instead of childishly trying to offend like the stupid troll you are? no wonder you  are in the top 5 morons list... meh

I thought in mathematics you could say that there is a more than 100% decrease exists. I mean I thought one could say that there is a 100%, 200% or 300% decrease. Like if your start number is let say 10 and your end number is negative 300 (-300), then my high school teacher described that result as 3000% percent decrease.  But I could be very wrong, I am very poor in mathematics. From business viewpoint I definitely felt in that past that I experienced with a 3000% decrease in my pocket when I provided collateral and I was liable to cover a $300,000 loss instead of gain the expected $10,000, but obviously it was just a decrease relative to the expected gain, and I am sure you are right Barrabas, saying -3000% is just plain stupidity from my part.

Anyway, sorry Barrabas for writing stupid things like that -3000%, when such a fucking genius is in thread like yourself then every single word is obviously very important. As your actions implies sloppy phrases in the forum will seriously effect the future of Vericoin, our chances to cure cancer and the mission to Mars just to mention a few tasks which I am sure you have been involving. The good news is, we are safe, because you are here and frequently point out to people what, how and when to write.
1788  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement on: July 24, 2014, 04:43:53 PM
I can't wait to see the finalized Skycoin app :-)) If you can roll out a working solution before Ethereum, then you could be the winner in the blockchain 2 race. Good luck!


They are two completely different platforms...  Nxt, eMunie,  Ethereum and skycoin are all front runners in their fields. There is a fair bit of crossover but not enough to have 1 winner.

Nxt is the only real product. In reality right now the rest are vaporware.

I disagree with that. Just like IBM and later Oracle couldn't own the database market and there are places for many database solution provider lately even many non-relational databases like Mongodb can have a market share, just like Apple could not own the smart phone market and HTC, samsung, etc. came, one player is not going to own the blockchain 2 decentralized app market. There are always place for multiple players who provide a good solution.

The Skycoin dev seems incredible knowledgeable in this field so if the solution is working there is a good chance that Skycoin will be one of the players.
1789  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 24, 2014, 04:14:26 PM
Guys and Gals,

This kind of price drop has happened to us three or four times already since launch, take a look at the charts.  These market fluctuations occur with this and all coins.  If you look at the rich list it is undisturbed.  There is panic sellers and they are relatively small holders, 10 million coins staking and so on.  This is not to say holding doesn't require will, it does, but if you believe it's the right coin, long term holding has the best financial reward.


Personally I am not worry about price fluctuations, yeah that happens even with bitcoin all the time. I'am a bit disturbed about your association with the scammer wizrig who according to you just brought good things to the table. Yeah we remember the hype making talk 3 days before he dump about Miami party with celebrities, the contract wit the PR company, the worldwide media campaign, making crypto-history which was presented for us by the vericoin team. Obviously it was just making the hype before the dump - but OK, I assume you were just naive, naively you let at the table the scammer wizrig who used that opprtunity to make the hype and dump, I guess you are inexperienced and made a mistake, lets forget it.

Which I am more interested is what's your plans if any to move the project forward? Is there any chances you would share any details about the decentralized app, how, what and when are you going to develop?
Thanks in advance for the info!
1790  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 24, 2014, 01:10:33 PM
Are the serious investors really worried about the price? This coin is only a few months old.... Bitcoin didn't shoot up to 8 billion marketcap in 2 months. Come on guys...

you make me laugh, 99.9% alt coin has several days lifetime,  pump-> dump -> dead, or dump->dead

many people like compare bitcoin with altcoin, are you out of mind? even ltc is not in position to compare with btc, look the price of ltc .

I think you are not right, there is a place for alt coins, especially that implements a decentralized aka blockchain 2 feature. Bitcoin is great, but there is a market gap for coins that support smart contracts and decentralized apps.

And yes, 99% of the altcoins are P&D and will disappear, but vericoin that has a transparent dev team is in the 1% that have at least the chance to succeed. If the devs continue to develop the coin, if they develop the right feature then Vericoin will be fine. In the meantime price goes down and up, but that's the nature of this thing.
1791  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement on: July 24, 2014, 12:34:41 PM
I can't wait to see the finalized Skycoin app :-)) If you can roll out a working solution before Ethereum, then you could be the winner in the blockchain 2 race. Good luck!
1792  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 24, 2014, 12:15:11 PM


Decentralized apps and smart contracts combined with digital currency are the future. See Ethereum, $3.5 million investment in 24 hours.

Yeah, I was about to mention the Ethereum IPO and other Blockchain 2.0 platforms such as Swarm & NXT. If VeriCoin does not become a Blockchain 2.0 organisation then it is a guaranteed failure, no ifs and no buts.

It really would be nice to know what the developers are planning going forward. All these roadmaps we had before, talks of this and that. And in the past few days, its like Patrick went silent on twitter ect, David never speaks, And Doug looks like he has been trying his hardest. We have a VeriCoin party in a few days right? Shouldn't we be building excitement, rather than fizzling out right now?



Can we have the vision laid out of whats going on by the devs? Where we are headed, whats in the pipeline of innovation? No hard deadlines are needed, The investors just need to know that there is a clear plan, and its being followed. Right now people are investing in vericoin for a lot of reasons. It would be great if people knew what they where investing in. Investing in the "mainstream" crypto is NOT working for us.

But just a general, who is vericoin, what are we, and where are we going would be EXTREMELY helpful.

They have to have building a Blockchain 2.0 platform in their roadmap and get it done fast, others will streamroller them if not. As you can see on http://coinmarketcap.com/ the 24hr daily volume for all alt coins is down drastically because of Ethereum, this downward slide in value will continue for Blockchain 1.0 coins.

You are quite right saying that the key is to get done the decentralized (blockchain 2) app fast. Also, I think the key is don't try to do too much like Etrhereum does because that dramatically slow down the process - just have a basic app that works, implement one feature (e.g a decentralized market place that uses VeriCoin) and do that feature well. That will be the winner.

Also, while the vericoin devs are incredible intelligent and smart, the history indicates that they don't always make the best decisions strategy wise (VeriBit, FIAT). EffectTocasuse said yesterday that they have a very good strategy regarding to the decentralized app, but I think it would be useful if they would to validate that strategy with the community, to have a dialogue whether the planned features do make sense. Barrabas was partly right saying that the devs have the young arrogance attitude, something like that this is their coin, they define the strategy, and that's it if you don't like sell your coin and fuck off. They are right in a certain extent and yes, we should fuck off and create our own blockchain 2 app if we don't like vericoin. This one way to tackle the issue. On the other hand if he devs need the community, the devs think that they need real money then always better to have dialogue about things, even about development strategies and with all members of the community including useless investors like myself who don't do anything useful like the all day long IRC chatters do just put some real money into vericoin.  
 

You hit several nails on the head. Everyone should be welcome as a customer, or in an investment. Telling anyone if they don't like it to sell, is a bit strange to me. If a customer said to me I don't like something, I would do my best to show them why they like something else I can do.

Telling people to go away, or sell is something I never understood. It sets a bad precedent in the minds of investors. Money is money, if there is better places to have money make money, then that's where it will go. Money doesn't have emotions. People do. I would love to support this coin, but if the goals are not laid out and aggressively followed, my money is going to head to greener pastures. Just like a lot of the smarter money has apparently been doing already   Huh


Kevin O'Leary said it best.

"Here's how I think of my money - as soldiers - I send them out to war everyday. I want them to take prisoners and come home, so there's more of them."

A lot of investors think of money like this. If you do not care about the soldiers you are going to have problems with the people sending them out....

WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE NO BUYERS!!


I hope you guys get my point, we need to create value, and soon. Because this is a very bad thing that large sellers can't even get the liquidity and are crashing the price.

You are absolutely right. Everyone should have place in the community. Even for barbaric Russian investor like myself who don't care too much about price drops because invested for not day trade reasons so I support this project with my money because I have the luxury to have 100 BTCs hobbies like Vericoin, Viacoin, Ethereum, etc, investors like yourself who concerned about the price but still support this coin, people like socal who is a nice guy and enthusiast about the silver coin and leckey who don't like day traders but interested in the core concept of digital currencies.

It would be nice if the devs could find the right direction and focus on things that matter. I think the silver coin, regional representatives, VeriBit, FIAT don't matter, these aren't going to make people buy and more importantly use Vericoin. I think what matters is the decentralized app, that could be the key to why people would use vericoin.
1793  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Is the OP_RETURN for contracts and smart properties? on: July 24, 2014, 11:44:54 AM
There are lot of hype around Ethereum's smart contracts, but I read somewhere that it is already possible to create contract using bitcoin's OP_RETURN. I am very inexperienced in this field and I was just wondering is it possible to implement contracts and smart properties with the OP_RETURN 40 bytes in the transaction? Is there any sample applications or white papers that describe such use case? If not, do you think would it be a good idea to put together a UML based design document that describes how contracts and smart properties work using OP_RETURN 40 bytes field? I would be happy to start working on a UML document if the experienced members of the community think it is a good idea, and more importantly if I could get some help or pointers because I have no idea how OP_RETURN works.

I am happy to help you with the UML document. I think lots of IT and software literate people will find that such docs are very useful. The problem is I don't know either how OP_RETURN works LoL

I am checking the source code and will try to post a UML sequence diagram that describes the operation.
1794  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 24, 2014, 11:35:53 AM


Decentralized apps and smart contracts combined with digital currency are the future. See Ethereum, $3.5 million investment in 24 hours.

Yeah, I was about to mention the Ethereum IPO and other Blockchain 2.0 platforms such as Swarm & NXT. If VeriCoin does not become a Blockchain 2.0 organisation then it is a guaranteed failure, no ifs and no buts.

It really would be nice to know what the developers are planning going forward. All these roadmaps we had before, talks of this and that. And in the past few days, its like Patrick went silent on twitter ect, David never speaks, And Doug looks like he has been trying his hardest. We have a VeriCoin party in a few days right? Shouldn't we be building excitement, rather than fizzling out right now?



Can we have the vision laid out of whats going on by the devs? Where we are headed, whats in the pipeline of innovation? No hard deadlines are needed, The investors just need to know that there is a clear plan, and its being followed. Right now people are investing in vericoin for a lot of reasons. It would be great if people knew what they where investing in. Investing in the "mainstream" crypto is NOT working for us.

But just a general, who is vericoin, what are we, and where are we going would be EXTREMELY helpful.

They have to have building a Blockchain 2.0 platform in their roadmap and get it done fast, others will streamroller them if not. As you can see on http://coinmarketcap.com/ the 24hr daily volume for all alt coins is down drastically because of Ethereum, this downward slide in value will continue for Blockchain 1.0 coins.

You are quite right saying that the key is to get done the decentralized (blockchain 2) app fast. Also, I think the key is don't try to do too much like Etrhereum does because that dramatically slow down the process - just have a basic app that works, implement one feature (e.g a decentralized market place that uses VeriCoin) and do that feature well. That will be the winner.

Also, while the vericoin devs are incredible intelligent and smart, the history indicates that they don't always make the best decisions strategy wise (VeriBit, FIAT). EffectTocause said yesterday that they have a very good strategy regarding to the decentralized app, but I think it would be useful if they would to validate that strategy with the community, to have a dialogue whether the planned features do make sense. Barrabas was partly right saying that the devs have the young arrogance attitude, something like that this is their coin, they define the strategy, and that's it if you don't like sell your coin and fuck off. They are right in a certain extent and yes, we should fuck off and create our own blockchain 2 app if we don't like vericoin. This one way to tackle the issue. On the other hand if he devs need the community, the devs think that they need real money then always better to have dialogue about things, even about development strategies and with all members of the community including useless investors like myself who don't do anything useful like the all day long IRC chatters do just put some real money into vericoin.  
 
1795  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 24, 2014, 10:10:52 AM
I think the most important and encouraging in the VeriCoin operation is that the devs are still interested in the project and working on adding new features. The price goes up and down, right now is down, but the hard work and the release of usable features will take care of the price increase. This is a legit dev team, as PNosker said they are real people building a real money. This transparency is a very unique attribute in the scam driven alt coin market.

Right now people are upset, but 50-100% price swing happens all the time even with real business operation. In the place Russia where I have been dealing/trading/funding IT, telecom and software companies I had experienced with a few 3000% price drop in the last 25 years, there were dead bodies all over the offices, so this is a very calm environment compared to that one, here is even the crypto-history maker scummer pumper WizRig is alive, so nothing dramatic happened here. Price drops are part of the business, even bitcoin has gone through several swing. Again, the hard work from the devs will take care of the price and the future of the coin still very bright.

Which is very encouraging to me that it seems the Devs are finally working on what really matters, the decentralized app feature. No one cares about VeriBit (why would anyone want it when we can pay with bitcoin, no wonder there is only 6 VeriBit users worldwide), the FIAT feature could be useful for a few people but nothing is innovative nor exciting in the FIAT feature, but a decentralized market place or exchange could be a game changer. Please focus on that and try to roll out at least a basic app that implements decentralized features. As you know there are incredible capable and smart people working on decentralized apps, Ethereum, Skycoin, even ViaCoin with the Counterparty inegration, etc., so the competition is fierce, that's why would be important that the Devs try to release at least a very basic but working decentralized app as soon as it is possible. As you know better than I do you compete with very smart guys like Dr. Wood from Ethereum http://www.gavwood.com/Paper.pdf , but if you have something that works (even if it is a very basic app) you can be the winner in this race.

There are many people like myself who invested a lot into VeriCoin, we are not overly worry about short term price changes and willing to invest lot more if things are going in the right direction. Please implement the decentralized feature and I guaranty you many more investment will come not from pumpers but from real investors.

1796  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Noob's question on transaction in the block and related source code on: July 23, 2014, 09:51:02 PM
Line 84 in miner.cpp is a good place to start (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/miner.cpp).

Mind you that some pools may use custom implementations that apply different logic to decide which transactions to include. As long as all transactions included in a block are valid, it is up to the miner to decide exactly what to include and what to leave out.

Thanks for your reply, that's great and really helpful.

I can see from the source code that the miner try to include transactions from the memory pool. If I understand correctly the main.cpp line 3888 populates the memory pool with transactions. Are these messages with the strCommand value "tx" transactions from p2p clients such my wallet when I send BTC to some one? If yes, does it mean that many miners would include my transaction and the lucky one who finally get the block will put the block that includes my transaction into the block chain?

1797  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 23, 2014, 07:27:05 PM
This either must be a joke and these three guys have no idea what they are doing or this a very nicely orchestrated scam with the sole purpose of making US$ 300K-400K and let ppl hold the bag.


You hit the nail on the head. This is a classic case of IT people gone awry. They have no clue what they are doing from a marketing standpoint. I've voiced my opinion on this many times in this chat forum but making the educated decision to present both Wiz and Socal as part of the team has been detrimental to their success.

Also PNosker continuously saying "we don't care about price", "we don't care about traders" is just plain stupid.

IMHO we have the classic case of a team of developers with all the books smarts and none of the street smarts.

Precisely that's what I think.

This coin needs US$ 2-3 million injection to get it to a sustainable position. The jokes about VeriBit (6 users worldwide), the FIAT feature (opening a web site from the app which was already not innovative in 1999) and the plan that third-world countries will use this coin (how that could will happen no one knows) will not help progressing this coin. Not these hardly innovative functionalities and plans, but only investment will provide the backbone for a healthy coin. However, Patrick Nosker is not interested in the price and investment which is as you said just plain stupid. If not investors create the hype (see Ethereum) but wizrig calibre pumpers in association with the Devs then this operation is going down. This coin need the hype from real investors with real money.

I feel the lead dev Nosker is very hypocritical. He says we are not interested in hype, price nor investors. On the other hand they go to the conference and organising some party to create the hype, frequently tweet about investors and before the dump create the hype with wizrig stating that they are here to create crypto-history.
1798  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 23, 2014, 06:59:17 PM
Every time before we where at a technical make or break point, we would get news about something "soon". Any chance to make healthy corrections where lost during the pumps. Now I think the day traders realize this won't go up 100% a day everyday and they are panic'd.

F'kin idiots.

Meanwhile, Everyone runs around like a chicken with their head cut off, No leadership, sigh.

Lost 1/3 our value in a day. Anytime I tried to get things on track, nothing. Nobody is near NYC that can try to make an effort to go outside and drop a paper wallet in a few iconic locations and create a game and some buzz about vericoin? Honestly, where is the coordination, the "team" is 3 people and a loosely affiliated gang of helpers is madness. Where do people go to solve issues, and create things for VRC?

I want to help create something big here but the more I think about it. Current money flow is showing that people are giving up on vericoin in masses in the last day alone? How are we going to create anything, bring in any support and create products for vericoin if nobody knows / cares about it?


I am so frustrated its hard to put into words. We can do better, but the more I think about it. Maybe its time to move on if nobody else gets it, or cares to make it better. I am sure someone will chime in and say this or that, but the fact of the matter is the products aren't wowing people enough. The words and hype created was bigger than any feature we released, and this is sad. Simply having a vision to be mainstream doesn't look like its going to be enough.

I have to agree with you on many issues you have pointed out.

Right now I am not sure whether the Devs are just inexperienced, naive, young scientists who want to change the world by rolling out a digital currency or just little scammer scum bags.

In the first hangout the devs associated themselves with wizrig, they presented wizrig as part of the team (at least from the talk and presentation any sane person would think wizrig was part of the team and plans) and were perfectly fine with wizrig's talk about creating history with vericoin, and then 3 days later a dump came. It makes me believe they could be easily in the second category (scammers).  
Since that hype there is no word about PR plan, following the hype and dump action wizrig disappeared from the vericoin screen and these three coin creator couldn't even manage to hire a PR firm. And know they think the regional representatives in Phillipines and Kenya will solve the problem of lack of investment/interest in the coin. In the meantime the devs communicate that they are not concerned about the price. But in the meantime there is a tweet almost every day that they had a very good meeting with investors. This either must be a joke and these three guys have no idea what they are doing or this a very nicely orchestrated scam with the sole purpose of making US$ 300K-400K and let ppl hold the bag.

The fact that the DEVS created the hype around 50K together with wizrig, and since nothing sensible happened around the coin makes them look not very good.

The main problem is that people are loosing hard earned cash because of the hype and dump, and people will be very unhappy to realise that while their money is gone, wizrig's Lamborghinies and Nosker's BMW 3M are just fine.
1799  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement on: July 23, 2014, 11:54:38 AM
Development Update

Incredible breakthrough on consensus. We have been discussing methods for distributed consensus, creating terminology for understanding consensus in distributed and mathematical models.

We drew out a finite state machine diagram for client transition states and found a new way of reasoning about state. We discovered that there are security measures that can be layered on to coins, which provably only improve the security of the coin without possibility of introducing a new attack. The coin client has a finite state machine and there is an operator that composes the finite state machine. If a mapping from the new state machine back into the original state machine, exists, which satisfies a property, then no sequence of input exists where the new state machine fails where the original state machine did not also fail with respect to the security property.

The property was originally proven using a state machine and constructing a binomial lattice type diagram of the transitions for of a state machine for a single input. The result generalized to machine with arbitrary sequence of input.

We are looking at Harel Statecharts and Hierarchical Moore Machines models now, for modeling the Skycoin consensus process and proving properties. We have very good results so far. If this works we can implement the Skycoin consensus system as a formal state machine being emulated by a golang program to ensure we get the mathematical guarantees on the security properties (such as state unreachability).

Types of Double Spending Attacks:

Types of double spending attacks
- Public Chain Forks: Two different groups of miners are mining on different branches, but are publicly publishing the blocks. This is not bad, because the client can run and replicate both forks. The client knows transactions are not final until the alternatives have been reduced to one. Exchanges avoid double spending by not crediting accounts until "10 confirmations AND there is only one public candidate chain". In contrast, Bitcoin switches from one branch to another aruptly, instead of running both alternatives until resolved and one chain is abandoned. Concurrent execution may be desired to switch over for some stability. Awareness of the publicly published alternatives allows exchanges and merchants to eliminate double spending as long as their clients are aware of the fork.
- Private Chain Forks: A miner with majority hash power, mines a longer chain in secret and then publishes it. Everyone switches to the new chain and previously "confirmed" transactions and blocks are reverted. This is the real threat.

Bitcoin is susceptible to double spending from Public Chain fork attacks, where a fork is public and eventually grows to overcome the main chain. Skycoin is not. The Skycoin client tries to be aware of alternate chains and for older history its impossible to create a public chain fork from blocks past a certain number of confirmations, which can become a consensus chain. The only issue left is ruling out chains that were mined in secret and then published to network.

We have identified two types of client behavior with respect to forks
- Hard Forking: As soon as the client sees a longer blockchain, it switches over immediately (Bitcoin)
- Soft Forking: A client is aware of forks and maintains state for both chains. The client has awareness that there is not consensus among the publicly published chains. Exchanges avoid double spending by not crediting accounts or counting transactions as executed until there is a single alternative chain (or until the transaction has been executed on both candidate chains). This is how Skycoin handles forking behavior.

We show that public chain forks are benign. They cannot result in double spending with a properly designed client.

We show that timestamping can be used to eliminate the Private Chains from being accepted. This is the last challenge to eliminating economically significant double spending attacks in Bitcoin like systems. For simplicity, we examine different centralized solutions, then will discuss decentralized alternatives.

Example System for Analysis:

Example 1: Insecure Time Stamping
- Security property: 51% attack proof (a person should not be able to get client to change to a blockchain fork  once a block has reached 10 confirmations.
- In Bitcoin the longest chain is valid. A person can mine a longer chain in secret and publish the chain and each node will switch to the new chain.
- Example Attack. At block 5 a person mines a secret chain fork to block 20. The public chain is at block 15. Block 5 has 10 confirmations.  
- Attack: Each public node accepts the chain with 15 blocks as valid. The attacker publishes the secret 20 block chain. Each node sees that the chain is longer and downloads it. Each node switches to the new chain. Transactions may have been reverted (The attacker deposits Bitcoin to exchange, gets Dogecoin, then uses the chain fork to revert the deposit transaction. The attacker now has his Bitcoin back and the Dogecoin).

Here we have
- node state
- condition transition between the nodes states
- an attack success state
- a security property (reachability of the attack state)

Assume we have a trusted 3rd party time stamping server. The server signs each publicly announced block after it has received five confirmations. A client will use the time stamps to determine which chain is valid.

In this system
- an attack on the time stamp server can be used to 51% attack (by only signing blocks on a chain fork instead of signing the public consensus blocks, resulting in the clients rejecting the valid chain.)
- an attacker with majority hash rate cannot perform a 51% attack without also compromising the timestamp server. If they mine a longer chain in secret and later publish the chain, then the clients will examine the time stamps by the 3rd party, realize that the blocks which would cause a 51% attack were not published to the network and reject the chain.

This system is not stronger than hashing. It introduces a new attack state transition (compromising the timestamp server).

Diagrams

To simplify analysis, we will gloss over network state and focus on individual clients. We will also simplify issue of orphan chains. To simplify analysis and diagrams, we assume that
- the client has a consensus chain (the longest chain the client knows about)
- we ignore issues of orphans and assume blocks are either successors to consensus chain or an unpublished side chain, that is being published in a 51% attack.
- this analysis for simplicity is client level, not network level

Some of these nodes are "State nodes" which represent changes in state of the client chain. The state nodes are the symbols the model emits in each round in response to an input. Other nodes are decision nodes, where a node must make a decision. There is actually a series of "state nodes" in succession, an input comes in and then an output is emitted by the machine on certain nodes, then the machine resets and the next symbol comes in. The diagram over a sequence of inputs actually looks like a linked Markov model diagram. Each transition node itself, could be a program which looks at some state variables and outputs the transition.

The decision nodes, themselves may be state machines themselves (hierarchical state machines). The network enters the sub-machine and the submachine emits the transition the parent machine is to take, as an output.

These diagrams are simplifications of a more precise hierarchical state transition model which is still on paper. Issues such as netsplits, clients joining the network are ignored as special cases.

System1:



Rules:
- Normal Bitcoin
- Client Accepts Longest Chain accepted

States:

S1: Client accepts new block on existing chain
S2: 51% attack. Client accepts chain that forks at a block which has more than N confirmations

Transitions:
T2: Normal operation. Addition of blocks or acceptance of new chain, which does not fork at a block with more than N confirmations
T1: New chain is longer and forks at a block which has more than N confirmations

End Nodes:
S1: emits action to do nothing or extend the current consensus chain
S2: changes the consensus chain

The client reaches S2 and the 51% attack succeeds only if the new chain is longer (more hashing power).

System 2:

System two is system 1 but with a developer run timestamp server, to prevent 51% attack



Rules:
- Client accepts longest chain
- If blocks with more than N confirmations must be signed by time stamp server or are rejected

States:
S1: Normal Functioning (stop node)
S2: A new longer chain has been presented to client. The presented chain forks current consensus chain before a block that has N confirmations. The client needs to decide between the old consensus chain and newly presented chain. The client accepts the chain based upon time stamps
S3: Attacker succeeds and attack chain was accepted

Transitions
T1: Normal operation. Extension of current consensus chain. Block must extend the current chain. If addition of the new block to the chain would cause the block to go over N confirmations, then it must be timestamped by the server.
T2: New longer chain presented to client
T3: Client accepts chain which is potential 51% attack
T5: Client rejects 51% attack chain and maintains current consensus chain
T4: 51% attack without majority hash power. Attacker compromises timestamp server and client rejects the legitimate chain for the attack chain. The client will reject blocks with more than N confirmations, which do not have timestamps. The attacker simply only timestamps the attack chain, until it becomes longer than the current consensus chain.

State Nodes:
S1: emits action to do nothing or extend the current consensus chain
S3: changes the consensus chain

Decision Nodes:
S2: checks time stamping server to determine whether to reject the 51% attack chain (T5), or accept the chain (T3)

The machine starts at S1. Under normal operation (a new block extending the current consensus chain) T1 is taken and the consensus chain is extended uneventfully.

There are 4 conditions
1. normal operation (no 51% attack and working timestamp server)
2. 51% attack and non-compromised timestamp server (attack fails)
3. Attacker does not have enough hash power to create a longer chain, but compromises the timestamp server to get clients to reject the legitimize chain (attack succeeds)
4. Attack has majority hash rate and controls time stamp server (attack succeeds)

This system is interesting
- it cannot operate without the developer timestamp server. the system stops without the timestamp server
- the timestamp server has no control over transactions in blocks but can veto blocks and cause small forks which revert up to N blocks by not time stamping blocks from that chain
- with linked timestamping, signatures and peer-to-peer replication, the timestamp server cannot backdate timestamps
- there is no 51% attack. After N block, confirmation consensus cannot be reverted, regardless of hash power. Transactions are finalized
- depending on implementation the 51% attack requires compromising the timestamp server and backdating timestamps (which can trigger a STOP condition, requiring human resolution). This should be treated as a special condition which cannot be handled automatically in software and requires human judgement.

System 3:

Here we use a timestamp server to rule out chains that were mined in secret and later published. However, we only fallback or even look at the timestamps if a switch over between chains is being considered. The timestamp server can prevent a double spending attack, but cannot be used to cause one.

- System 3 is system 2 with the T4 transition removed.
- System 3 is exactly like Bitcoin normally
- A third party timestamps blocks as it sees them, signs the timestamp and publishes it
- A 3rd party block timestamps only when a client receives a chain which would cause its consensus chain to change. Otherwise timestamps are ignored.

Rules
- the timestamp server timestamps all valid published blocks as it sees them
- timestamps are only used in S2. Timestamps are only examined if an incoming blockchain is long enough to become the new consensus chain and if that chain would replace the existing chain.
- S3 state literally means "Accept new longest chain"
- S1 state literally means "remain on current chain"



End States:
S1: extend current chain by one block or do nothing
S3: accept new consensus chain (accept fork)

Decision States:
S2: Check timestamps on forked blocks and decide to accept the chain as the new consensus chain(S3) or reject the chain and keep the current chain (S1)

Transitions:
T2: A new longer chain has appeared that would change the consensus chain. Move to S2
T5: The timestamps of the new chain were examined and the new chain was determined to be a 51% attack attempt (someone mined an unpublished chain until it was longer than current public chain and then published it). The new chain was rejected.
T3: The attack chain was accepted

In this system
- Two systems, instead of one must be compromised. The attacker must control both the timestamping server and must have majority hash rate, for the attack to be successful. The previous system failed if either of two systems were compromised. The current system "composes" by replacing a state node with a a sub-machine, which is only triggered if the first security measure has failed.
- Compromising the timestamping server cannot result in a 51% attack
- It is impossible to mine blocks in secret and the publish them to network to 51% attack, if timestamping server is working


Challenges:
- A client connecting to network must ensure that it has the same head and consensus chain as the other clients before running this algorithm, or it may end up in a different state than the other clients. Discussing this edge cause would complicate discussion, but there is a resolution if you work through it.
- Clients need a notion of "network state" and need to ensure they are converged. We think we have this solved (but not within Bitcoin framework, will discuss it later). Skycoin clients have notion of "network state" which is different from client state. Each client only has local information, so sometimes network state can only be inferred probabilisticly and requires a randomized process for global convergence from local information.

Implications:


By using a honest third party service which timestamps each block we can eliminate the Private Chain Fork attack. The timestamp acts as a proof of publication of the block. Blocks mined in secret and then later published will not have timestamps and therefore can be identified as 51% attack attempts.

Fair Timestamping:

The original Skycoin consensus system, gives each user a personal blockchain. The users publish blocks and subscribe to other user's blockchains. When a user becomes aware of a block, they publish the hash of the block in the next block published to their personal blockchain. Each published block is timestamped and therefore attests to the existence and publication of the block.

Alternatives:
- web of trust, distributed timestamping system (like Skycoin)
- delegated Proof-Of-Stake is used to elect five "fair" timestamping servers
- putting the timestamps in the Bitcoin blockchain
- putting timestamps or block headers in different altcoin chains and then referencing them against each other. This exploits tags like Mastercoin uses, which are not stored in the unspent outputs but which can be embedded in blockchain and querried.
- each coin can be check-pointed in the blockchain of other coins and the checkpoints countersigned. A significant 51% attack which reverts a coin back to significantly earlier block, now requires simultaneously 51% attacking a dozen other coins. This is Skycoin's distributed timestamping system, but operating on altcoins chains instead of personal chains.
- banks and financial institutions running centralized cryptocoins who do not want to incur the security costs of mining, may run their own centralized timestamping servers

Proof-of-Stake with Delegated Timestamping:

Bitcoin combines three separate things in a single entity in the block headers
- consensus, determining which chain is the correct one, "network state"
- choosing who gets to create each block
- rate limiting block creation

In Bitcoin these separate functions are combined into a single block header.
- the group of miners with the most hash power determines which chain is valid
- the miners choose what is in each block
- difficulty rate limits block creation rate

However, it does not have to be designed that way. In Skycoin these functions are separated out in a more fine grained way.

We could imagine a system where
- blocks are created by hashing through Proof-of-Stake (coinhours can be burned to reduce target or substitute for hashing).
- Proof-of-Stake is used to elect five timestamping servers (one coin one vote). Bad timestamp servers are automatically voted out.
- Each block is timestamped and signed by the public keys of each of the five elected servers. Consensus is determined by the timestamps (first block published wins. average of time the five timestamps).
- The timestamp servers will only sign blocks after they have been confirmed for five confirmations
- no block rewards for mining
- transaction costs in coinhours (no transaction costs, but rate limiting through coinhours)

In these systems the questions to ask are
- who determines what blocks are created
- how is the consensus chain determined

There can be different groups of people serving these functions

The consensus mechanism can be complex, can be outside of the blockchain and can contain multiple factors or mechanisms. Hashing is the weakest mechanism and most expensive per unit of security. Proof of stake is second mechanism but also imperfect. An ideal system would combine Proof of Stake with a second mechanism indepedent of coin ownership, where even a majority coin holder could not attack the system without also compromising the independent mechanism.

Thanks for the update. Quite impressive piece of work assuming the whole thing is operational.

I have only one additional comment: who needs Ethereum when we could have Skycoin. (I hope we will have skycoin sooner than ether.)
1800  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Noob's question on transaction in the block and related source code on: July 23, 2014, 10:44:12 AM
I have been buying and using bitcoin in the last two years, but was never interested in the technical details and underlying concept. Now I am reading more and more technical materials and being really fascinated by how bitcoin works, what a good technology it is. Unfortunately more reading raises more and more questions. The newest topic I would like to understand how transactions are recorded in the block more precisely what handles that process (putting new transactions into the block). If I understood correctly miners who generate the block will include the incoming transactions in it. According to the wiki, "all peers trying to solve blocks collect the transaction records and add them to the block they're working to solve". My question is which software component does that, is it the bitcoind software or the mining pool would handle that? If the bitcoin core software does that, would you mind to let me know where is that in the source code? Tracking down step by step the process by reading the source I would understand better what's happening under the hood.
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