Why do Atheists Hate Religion?

[Astargath]

Which if their seven tenets do you personally disagree with?

The Satanic Temple has seven fundamental tenets:

1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
3. One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.
4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
5. Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
6. People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Temple

I disagree with economic egalitarianism, everything else looks good to me (maybe 2 is a bit radical, first change the laws, don't go over them).

The Devil as they say is in the details. The most dangerous lies mix truth and falsehood. I lack the time or desire to go into a point by point refutation of these but perhaps the following will enable a quick understanding of my thoughts.

Satanic Temple tenets fixed by CoinCube
1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures.
2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit.
3. One's body is inviolable from the moment of conception.
4. The freedoms of others should be respected unless they unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another.
5. We should take care to ensure that our beliefs conform to reality. Scientific observation and theory is a powerful formalized tool that helps us achieve this.
6. People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we have an obligation to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought.

There is no logical way to go from the above tenants to:

“And despite the fact that they claim that they “don’t worship Satan”, the group does celebrate the black mass, it does conduct Pentagram rituals, and it does seek to put statues of Baphomet up in prominent public locations.”

And there is a logical way of going from bible rules? Things like:

"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." (Deuteronomy 22: 20-21)

or

"For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken. No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God." (Leviticus 21:18-21)

You honestly think they are better or logical at all?

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[CoinCube]

You agree with their tenets, why don't you call yourself Satanist?  You do believe that Satan/Baphomet exists, don't you?

Do you prefer Christian mass theatrics?  You know, cracker turning literally into the body of Christ and wine into the blood of Christ, all at once in all churches across the US, every Sunday.  Is that why you are a Christian?

I don't agree with any of their tenets they are flawed. I agree with what I wrote immediately above which might sound superficially similar to their tenants to a non discerning reader but if you look closely you will see they are different each and every one.

Symbolism is important. It's carries meaning both purpose and principle. That is why the rituals of Christianity matter they are important. It is also why the rituals of the Satanist matter.

I believe evil exists as objective reality. How you want to envision that evil and reduce it to a form the human mind can grasp is up to you.

[CoinCube]

(Deuteronomy 22: 20-21)
or
(Leviticus 21:18-21)

You honestly think they are better or logical at all?

I can see why rules must be in place to limit infidelity and preserve the stability of the family unit and ultimately society at large. I can see why the options for such rules in primitive tribal time would be very limited.

I can also see the logic in establishing the precedent that drawing closer to God entails increasing perfection. Perfection in thought, perfection in action, and ultimately perfection in form.

So yes I think those passages were a logical means of stabilizing early societies and leading towards long term prosperity. Do I think we should execute people via stoning or forbid the very sick and deformed from entering churches today of course not. 

[Astargath]

(Deuteronomy 22: 20-21)
or
(Leviticus 21:18-21)

You honestly think they are better or logical at all?

I can see why rules must be in place to limit infidelity and preserve the stability of the family unit and ultimately society at large. I can see why the options for such rules in primitive tribal time would be very limited.

I can also see the logic in establishing the precedent that drawing closer to God entails increasing perfection. Perfection in thought, perfection in action, and ultimately perfection in form.

So yes I think those passages were a logical means of stabilizing early societies and leading towards long term prosperity. Do I think we should execute people via stoning or forbid the very sick and deformed from entering churches today of course not. 

The problem with your argument is that ignores god. God is all knowing and powerful, there was never any ''need'' of any of those laws, god could have made moral laws from the beginning and there would have been no ''primitive'' civilizations at all since they all of them would have followed God's rules, was it really that hard?

[CoinCube]

The problem with your argument is that ignores god. God is all knowing and powerful, there was never any ''need'' of any of those laws, god could have made moral laws from the beginning and there would have been no ''primitive'' civilizations at all since they all of them would have followed God's rules, was it really that hard?

Yes he could have but then we would be slaves.

Why Does God Allow Evil?

[af_newbie]

You agree with their tenets, why don't you call yourself Satanist?  You do believe that Satan/Baphomet exists, don't you?

Do you prefer Christian mass theatrics?  You know, cracker turning literally into the body of Christ and wine into the blood of Christ, all at once in all churches across the US, every Sunday.  Is that why you are a Christian?

I don't agree with any of their tenets they are flawed. I agree with what I wrote immediately above which might sound superficially similar to their tenants to a non discerning reader but if you look closely you will see they are different each and every one.

Symbolism is important. It's carries meaning both purpose and principle. That is why the rituals of Christianity matter they are important. It is also why the rituals of the Satanist matter.

I believe evil exists as objective reality. How you want to envision that evil and reduce it to a form the human mind can grasp is up to you.

I don't see any difference between Christian and Satanist symbolism.  They both deal with blood, murder and human sacrifice.

They are equally insane, IMHO.

[BADecker]

I don't see any difference between Christian and Satanist symbolism.  They both deal with blood, murder and human sacrifice.

They are equally insane, IMHO.

Just so you know. Christianity is the symble of eternal life in joy with God.

Satanism is the symbol of destruction, and eternal death - eternal death isn't as simple as it sounds.

But you know this because you have read the Bible.

[Vod]

I choose reality - eternal death. 

[Viron]

Well, I never truly had "faith", just not wired that way. Started doubting religion very early on, became an atheist before I even hit puberty.
I did hate religion with a passion for a good chunk of my teenage years, reason for that was my environment. Religion is very prevalent in my country, a majority of people here are devout believers in orthodox christianity. I, being the "doubtful tom", often ended up on their crosshair, even without me "advertising" my lack of faith.
Being the proud guy that I am, I got into a lot of conflicts because of it.
These days, I'm not as passionate about my dislike for the "opium of the masses", but I'd rather it didn't exist.
A wise fella once said "religion is the only thing, that I know of, which can cause a good man to do monstrous things".

[Astargath]

The problem with your argument is that ignores god. God is all knowing and powerful, there was never any ''need'' of any of those laws, god could have made moral laws from the beginning and there would have been no ''primitive'' civilizations at all since they all of them would have followed God's rules, was it really that hard?

Yes he could have but then we would be slaves.

Why Does God Allow Evil?

Awful argument. First it talks about babies dying from horrible diseases and then proceeds to say there is evil in all of us and that's why god can't get rid of evil because he would have to wipe humanity. However, a baby is not evil and has done nothing, he/she didn't even have time to do anything and yet they still die for absolutely no reason of horrible diseases, suffering.

Another important flaw in your argument that we would be ''slaves'' is the FACT that god himself already wiped the whole humanity once, remember? With the flood? I'm not sure your brain functions correctly mate.

[BADecker]

The problem with your argument is that ignores god. God is all knowing and powerful, there was never any ''need'' of any of those laws, god could have made moral laws from the beginning and there would have been no ''primitive'' civilizations at all since they all of them would have followed God's rules, was it really that hard?

Yes he could have but then we would be slaves.

Why Does God Allow Evil?

Awful argument. First it talks about babies dying from horrible diseases and then proceeds to say there is evil in all of us and that's why god can't get rid of evil because he would have to wipe humanity. However, a baby is not evil and has done nothing, he/she didn't even have time to do anything and yet they still die for absolutely no reason of horrible diseases, suffering.

Another important flaw in your argument that we would be ''slaves'' is the FACT that god himself already wiped the whole humanity once, remember? With the flood? I'm not sure your brain functions correctly mate.

Ignorant points.

All people die. Or do you know of someone who is 200 years old, and still wildly young? The differences are how old they are when they die, and everything else when comparing people... like the different locations they hold in space, and the different atoms that make up their respective bodies.

The point is that God provides salvation in simply understanding that Jesus removed the curse of death. There will be a resurrection. If you say there won't be a resurrection, how do you know? After all, life the first time is impossible, except that it is here. So, if impossible life can miraculously happen once, why would you think it can't be brought about a second time?

Turn while you have the chance, and accept the salvation offered. But if you won't accept, it isn't because you didn't know. Rather, it's because you made your choice.

[af_newbie]

The problem with your argument is that ignores god. God is all knowing and powerful, there was never any ''need'' of any of those laws, god could have made moral laws from the beginning and there would have been no ''primitive'' civilizations at all since they all of them would have followed God's rules, was it really that hard?

Yes he could have but then we would be slaves.

Why Does God Allow Evil?

Awful argument. First it talks about babies dying from horrible diseases and then proceeds to say there is evil in all of us and that's why god can't get rid of evil because he would have to wipe humanity. However, a baby is not evil and has done nothing, he/she didn't even have time to do anything and yet they still die for absolutely no reason of horrible diseases, suffering.

Another important flaw in your argument that we would be ''slaves'' is the FACT that god himself already wiped the whole humanity once, remember? With the flood? I'm not sure your brain functions correctly mate.

Ignorant points.

All people die. Or do you know of someone who is 200 years old, and still wildly young? The differences are how old they are when they die, and everything else when comparing people... like the different locations they hold in space, and the different atoms that make up their respective bodies.

The point is that God provides salvation in simply understanding that Jesus removed the curse of death. There will be a resurrection. If you say there won't be a resurrection, how do you know? After all, life the first time is impossible, except that it is here. So, if impossible life can miraculously happen once, why would you think it can't be brought about a second time?

Turn while you have the chance, and accept the salvation offered. But if you won't accept, it isn't because you didn't know. Rather, it's because you made your choice.

You really don't have control over your thoughts and actions as you think you do.

If the universe is deterministic, you have no control over your actions, they are the result of causations that preceded them.
If the universe is non-deterministic, there must be some randomness inside or outside of your brain over which you have no control.

i.e. there is no free will.

That is why the notion that God created evil but gave homo sapiens 'free will' does not make any logical sense.

[BADecker]

^^^ God perfectly controls the thoughts and actions of us all according to the free will directions we would move if we had control. But He controls, also, according to His desires for the universe, and the order He has placed herein. This means that our thoughts and actions are controlled according to the direction of our free will, by God.

God can do anything. And sometimes He does things that seem like miracles to us... like when people are healed from an ill, and the doctor can't believe that such healing could have happened. Other times he lets us free will our own death by maintaining our free will direction to use that gun.

Is it God's fault? Yes and no. God set things up in a way that He gave Himself over to obedience of our free will, to an extent. He did this before there was imperfection in the world. At that time nothing bad would have happened, but only good.

When people chose to start doing imperfect things, this placed God in a position of carrying out the bad free will actions of people for them. So, God did the only thing He could do. He sent Jesus to take the pain of all the wrongdoings, and the punishment for them. And...

God went around the way He set things up to exist in this life originally. He gives people the choice to be saved for a future life where there will no longer be any imperfection. It's all in Jesus salvation.

You have read the Bible. Believe the salvation.

[CoinCube]

You really don't have control over your thoughts and actions as you think you do.

If the universe is deterministic, you have no control over your actions, they are the result of causations that preceded them.
If the universe is non-deterministic, there must be some randomness inside or outside of your brain over which you have no control.

i.e. there is no free will.

That is why the notion that God created evil but gave homo sapiens 'free will' does not make any logical sense.

We either have free will or we have such a perfect illusion of free will that the difference from our frame of reference is moot.

C.S. Lewis addressed the issues of free will the choice of evil and how it relates to the self in this excellent little essay/video.

The Shocking Alternative by C.S. Lewis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxzuh5Xx5G4

[af_newbie]

You really don't have control over your thoughts and actions as you think you do.

If the universe is deterministic, you have no control over your actions, they are the result of causations that preceded them.
If the universe is non-deterministic, there must be some randomness inside or outside of your brain over which you have no control.

i.e. there is no free will.

That is why the notion that God created evil but gave homo sapiens 'free will' does not make any logical sense.

We either have free will or we have such a perfect illusion of free will that the difference from our frame of reference is moot.

...

Because you say so?  Where is your logic, went out of the window?  I gave you a logical conclusion about why there cannot possibly be free will.

Your assertion is baseless.

[af_newbie]

^^^ God perfectly controls the thoughts and actions of us all according to the free will directions we would move if we had control. But He controls, also, according to His desires for the universe, and the order He has placed herein. ...

How do you know that?

[notbatman]

An NPC claims there's no free will, how charming.

[CoinCube]

You really don't have control over your thoughts and actions as you think you do.

If the universe is deterministic, you have no control over your actions, they are the result of causations that preceded them.
If the universe is non-deterministic, there must be some randomness inside or outside of your brain over which you have no control.

i.e. there is no free will.

That is why the notion that God created evil but gave homo sapiens 'free will' does not make any logical sense.

We either have free will or we have such a perfect illusion of free will that the difference from our frame of reference is moot.

...

Because you say so?  Where is your logic, went out of the window?  I gave you a logical conclusion about why there cannot possibly be free will.

Your assertion is baseless.

My assertion is most definitely not baseless. We cannot know higher order perspectives of reality for they are outside of our frame of reference.

From a sufficiently high Godlike perspective time itself may not even exist and everything may appear as a four dimensional structure consisting of the present past and future simultaneously.

See: TIME is an ILLUSION
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VYZQxMowBsw

If that were the case then from that Godly perch not only do we not have free will we don’t even have a future. We would be more akin to God’s finished painting a fixed image or work of art.

Say for a moment that is the nature of reality. Would the simultaneous existence of our fixed future change anything? No because it is totally outside of our perceived reality. From our perspective that future is yet to come and will be brought into existence by our actions. For us it may as well not yet exist.

Free will is the same problem. Free will may indeed be an illusion but if it is the illusion is perfect for the determinism is undetectable to those of us living under it. Thus from our limited perspective of we either have free will or we have a perfect illusion of free will. The difference between the two are undetectable for us and thus moot.

[af_newbie]

You really don't have control over your thoughts and actions as you think you do.

If the universe is deterministic, you have no control over your actions, they are the result of causations that preceded them.
If the universe is non-deterministic, there must be some randomness inside or outside of your brain over which you have no control.

i.e. there is no free will.

That is why the notion that God created evil but gave homo sapiens 'free will' does not make any logical sense.

We either have free will or we have such a perfect illusion of free will that the difference from our frame of reference is moot.

...

Because you say so?  Where is your logic, went out of the window?  I gave you a logical conclusion about why there cannot possibly be free will.

Your assertion is baseless.

My assertion is most definitely not baseless. We cannot know higher order perspectives of reality for they are outside of our frame of reference.

From a sufficiently high Godlike perspective time itself may not even exist and everything may appear as a four dimensional structure consisting of the present past and future simultaneously.

See: TIME is an ILLUSION
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VYZQxMowBsw

If that were the case then from that Godly perch not only do we not have free will we don’t even have a future. We would be more akin to God’s finished painting a fixed image or work of art.

Say for a moment that is the nature of reality. Would the simultaneous existence of our fixed future change anything? No because it is totally outside of our perceived reality. From our perspective that future is yet to come and will be brought into existence by our actions. For us it may as well not yet exist.

Free will is the same problem. Free will may indeed be an illusion but if it is the illusion is perfect for the determinism is undetectable to those of us living under it. Thus from our limited perspective of we either have free will or we have a perfect illusion of free will. The difference between the two are undetectable for us and thus moot.

In your world, free will might be an illusion based on your grandiose God Delusion (GGD).

In the real world, unknowns remain unknowns until they become knowns. And there is no such thing as God entity 'painting his work of art'.

There is no free will, things are either determined by the physical laws (neurons firing in your brain) or non-deterministic randomness outside of our control.  Both cases push the concept of free will into notbatman's la-la-land.

 

[CoinCube]

In your world, free will might be an illusion based on your grandiose God Delusion (GGD).

In the real world, unknowns remain unknowns until they become knowns. And there is no such thing as God entity 'painting his work of art'.

There is no free will, things are either determined by the physical laws (neurons firing in your brain) or non-deterministic randomness outside of our control.  Both cases push the concept of free will into notbatman's la-la-land.

We disagree so strongly on every single issue because of of your delusion.  Let’s call it your grandiose nihilistic delusion (GND).

In your world life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value, morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are arbitrarily contrived. Human or even the entire human species is essentially insignificant, without purpose and of no importance in the totality of existence.

http://www.arasite.org/WL3/nietnihil.html#_ftn1

It is the continued destruction of all meaning and signification. It is the belief that nothing really matters any more, because nothing really has any meaning. We have no system of beliefs or values which could orientate us. The old systems of belief, like religion and morality, still exist, but at best we only follow them half-heartedly, and at worst, think that they have no meaning whatsoever.  They exist only the edges of our lives and consciousnesses. But it isn’t just the world that doesn’t have any meaning anymore. We ourselves don’t have any meaning to ourselves. Why should we choice one course of action over the other? What does it really matter anymore, since no-one’s individual life really has any significance in the grand scheme of things...

Nothing is worth much anymore, everything comes down to the same thing, everything is equalized. Everything is the same and equivalent: the true and the false, the good and the bad. Everything is outdated, used up, old dilapidated, dying: an undefined agony of meaning, an unending twilight: not a definite annihilation of significations, but their indefinite collapse.

By rejecting intrinsic value as you do, your are not abandoning the quest for value but certifying the absence of value. What is the antithesis of nihilism? It is faith.

Faith holds that life has inherent meaning. It proclaims that there is an objective status for ethical ideals grounded in the very bedrock of creation. It teaches that man is created "in the image of God," and therefore has inherent dignity and immense value. It offers mankind a purpose in this universe.

Faith demands we not accept the world as it is. Faith provides an ideal and asks us for ethical perfection. It is a goal we fall far short of a world to strive for. Your nihilism provides none of these things for at its heart it is a philosophy of emptiness.

Free will may be an illusion so might time and indeed the entire universe as we perceive it. These possibilities, however, are irrelevant. We have the freedom to express who and what we are by living life. Who and what we are is ultimately determined by what we ‘choose’ to be. Maybe there is some higher order perspective that is capable of knowing the entire structure of our neuronal wiring or is not limited by time as we are and capable of knowing with certainty what our future choices will be. Even in that scenario we are still ‘free’ in the sense that we shout out to the universe what we fundamentally are via our lived lives.

In your world the murderer had no choice on his actions he was compelled to kill by his neuronal wiring the killer is a victim compelled by cause and effect. In my world the murderer made a conscious choice to commit a horrific evil and informed us of who and what he is.

We will not agree because our world views are fundamentally incompatible. We will have to leave it to the readers to ‘choose’ which of our two world views they believe true.