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Author Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion?  (Read 900322 times)
CoinCube
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October 11, 2018, 10:10:23 PM
 #8161

Hate to interrupt guys, but breaking news!

Man Made His Wife Kill Herself So He Could Use Insurance Money to Build Church
http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2018/10/11/man-made-his-wife-kill-herself-so-he-could-use-insurance-money-to-build-church/
Quote
Morant deserves punishment for what he did — and depriving him of that could send a green light to others who may be similarly deluded in the name of religion and selfishness. The sentencing phase will begin soon.
discuss...

End of the article sums up my feelings. Sickening story.

In many ways these types of crimes are the worst of them all. Dennis Prager sums it up well.

The Greatest Sin
 http://www.dennisprager.com/the-greatest-sin/
Quote
There is one sin that may be worse than all other sins. And it is taking place on a large scale today.

There are some religious people who maintain that one cannot declare any sin worse than any other — that a person who takes an office pen is committing as grievous a sin in God’s eyes as a murderer. But most people intuitively, as well as biblically, understand that there are gradations of sin.

Having a background in theology and a lifetime of teaching the Bible from the original Hebrew, I would like to offer evidence for demarcating one sin as worse than all others. Indeed it may be the only sin that God will not forgive:

Committing evil in the name of God.
My basis is the Ten Commandments. The Commandment widely translated as “Do not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain,” is imprecisely translated. The original Hebrew literally reads, “Do not carry the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”

And, the Commandment continues, “for God will not hold guiltless (literally, “will not cleanse”) whoever carries His name in vain.”

As a strong believer that God (or whomever one credits with authoring the Ten Commandments) has at least as much common sense as I do, it seems inconceivable that God can “cleanse” (implying “forgive”) a murderer but not someone who said God’s name when he shouldn’t have. Therefore, the Commandment about the misuse (“misuse” is the translation of the New International Version of the Bible, my favorite translation) of God’s name must be about far more than merely using God’s name “in vain.”

I admit that I come to this conclusion as a result of my Jewish education. Every yeshiva student learns early in life that the greatest sin is khillul Hashem, public desecration of the Name (of God), and conversely, the greatest mitzvah (commandment, good deed) is kiddush Hashem, public sanctification of the Name. I well remember, for example, one of my rabbis in yeshiva telling us not to go to what were then called “dirty” movies, but if we did go, to take off our yarmulkes first — to enter a dirty movie theater announcing that we were religious Jews would desecrate God’s name.
Imagine, then, how bad committing atrocities in God’s name must be.

Let me explain this in another way.

When a secular person commits evil, it is surely evil, but it doesn’t bring God and religion in disrepute. When a person commits evil in God’s name, however, he destroys the greatest hope for goodness to prevail on earth — widespread belief in a God who demands goodness (ethical monotheism). There is nothing as evil as religious evil.
...
If there is a hell, those who murder and torture the innocent while praising God are surely the first to go there.




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October 11, 2018, 11:49:13 PM
 #8162

Quite simply, I don't like being lied to

I don't believe in gods for the same reason I don't believe in ghosts, gremlins, leprechauns, faeries, unicorns, zombies, vampires, bigfoot, angels, demons, crystals, chakras, chi, dowsing, tarot cards, mediums, psychics, and many other human inventions which have zero scientific evidence to support the claim of their existence
I think that's what most atheists answer would be.
But on the other side, they would agree that many religious rules are good, for example ten commandments. But they would like to people to follow such rules not because of fear of being damned but because it's right thing to do, because of morality etc.
I've seen a TV show and priest, when asked if he knows that God and Heaven exist answered, that he only has faith that's true.
He used "faith" in it's 1st meaning:
faith noun (TRUST)

[ U ] a high degree of trust or confidence in something or someone:

[ + that clause ] I have faith that she will do the right thing.
So even some church's people don't take holy books 100% seriously.
Many people believes that holy books were written as a form of law, God, Hell and Heaven was used as motivation to make people follow rules written in them.
Atheists believe that in today, modern world we no longer need these motivators and that many religious rules aren't needed/ good.

So you can say that atheists hate religion because they feel sorry for people that fall prey to religion.

Sorry for not reading 418 Shocked pages of this topic.

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October 12, 2018, 12:05:57 PM
 #8163

I cannot tell why Atheist hate religion because I am not one. I am a Christian an I believe in the existence of God, the Father, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

In my opinion which could either be rejected or accepted I think Atheist shun the existence of deities because of their belief system and of course every man's belief is his reality. In essence, change your belief change your reality.
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October 12, 2018, 01:24:07 PM
 #8164


You claim that because I base the meaning of life on the life itself that meaning is invalid because the evolution (randomness) is taking place?  Is that what you said?

Which meaning has stronger fundamental rooting, mine based on Biology (that we can test and verify) or yours based on the Bronze Age scripture?  Are you sure you thought this through?  You evaluated 3000+ religious ideologies and determined that Christianity provides the true meaning of life?  If you did, let's hear it.  How did you exclude Egyptian, Hindu, Chinese, Sumerian, Mayan, Aztec and Greek mythologies?
If you have a way to invalidate these other beliefs, you can use the same resoaning to invalidate your religious beliefs.

If you don't have a proof that all other religions are wrong and yours is right, then you just picked your life meaning out of a hat with all religions in it.  It is pure luck that you ended up with Christianity.  If you grew up and lived in Pakistan, you would be Muslim and derive the meaning/purpose of life from Islam.  If you grew up in Guatemala in the 4th century, you would be following Mayan customs and traditions and deriving meaning of life from that.  Do you see a problem?

So please stop calling Biology a faith.  Biology is objective.  All humans work the same way anywhere on the planet.  All people want peace and see their children and grandchildren grow up in peace.  It does not matter if they live in Colombia, Saudi Arabia or Sweden.  It does not matter if they are Muslims, Christians, Jews or Scientologists.  

People who would follow my reasoning and base their purpose in life on Biology would end up with the same conclusions because Biology is the same everywhere you go on this planet and beyond.  Regardless of which book you read from, regardless of which culture you grew up in, or who your parents were.

Which position is more objective, yours or mine?  You searched for objective morality and ended up with subjective reflections of 40+ Bronze Age authors who wrote the Bible.  Science is objective.  Scientific method and peer-reviews make sure of that.

Religions are subjective, a sheer number of Christian denominations is a proof of that.  Even in the same denominations, people cannot agree.  Drill it down, even in some Christian families of the same denomination, people cannot agree on the interpretation of the (subjective) writings of the Bible writers.  Is owning slaves ok?  Is killing gays ok?  Is working on Sabbath bad? Would you sacrifice your son if God asked you?

Morality derived from religions is subjective because people have nothing else to go on but some ancient texts.  So their imagination goes wild.  Just like reading a novel. God does not bother to enlighten them directly.  Guess what? Science can.


Biology isn't objective. The study of it is what can be objective. However, we have so little knowledge of how things work - especially in biology - that our basic conclusions about it approaches religious thinking more than they do objective biology thinking.

How do we know this? We talk about evolution being real, when we don't have even one proof. We talk about being able to live longer by adjusting biology, but we haven't been able to outdo nature for long life, yet.

We are essentially in primitive stages of biology investigation and manipulation. Talking about it like we know more than we do, is turning it into something like religion for us. Why? Because this makes it a faith thing rather than a knowledge thing.

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October 12, 2018, 01:38:10 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2018, 03:01:10 PM by Moloch
Merited by Foxpup (3)
 #8165

Quite simply, I don't like being lied to

I don't believe in gods for the same reason I don't believe in ghosts, gremlins, leprechauns, faeries, unicorns, zombies, vampires, bigfoot, angels, demons, crystals, chakras, chi, dowsing, tarot cards, mediums, psychics, and many other human inventions which have zero scientific evidence to support the claim of their existence

I think that's what most atheists answer would be.
But on the other side, they would agree that many religious rules are good, for example ten commandments. But they would like to people to follow such rules not because of fear of being damned but because it's right thing to do, because of morality etc.

I would NOT agree that the ten commandments are good... since you brought it up, lets talk about them:

First, there are at least 3 distinctly different versions of the ten commandments (Moses broke the first set that "god" wrote without naming those commandments at all... the 2 different lists are from Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21)

The Jews (who wrote the ten commandments) believe in a different list of 10 than the Catholics... the Protestants believe in a different list than either the Jews or Catholics... 3 different lists followed by people who claim they are the infallible word of god (a real god would make sure everyone was on the same page, i.e. used the exact same list)

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me (egotistical, not a complimentary trait for a god)
2) Thou shalt not make idols (why not?  who cares?  more egotistical nonsense)
3) Thou shalt not take god's name in vain (more ego... wow god's ego is HUGE)
4) Honor the sabbath and keep it holy (more ego?)
5) Honor thy father and mother (sounds ok, but some parents do horrible things to children, like rape them, etc)
6) Thou shalt not kill (FINALLY!!!! A GOOD COMMANDMENT!!!!  GO GOD!) (hopefully this second half turns out better than the first half)
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery (does it really matter?  this certainly isn't illegal or anything)
8} Thou shalt not steal (a good rule, but not anything new... god/moses/jews were not the first to have a rule against stealing)
9) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife (thought crimes?  not a good idea)
10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass (redundant... more thought crimes... why not just combine 9 & 10 into "don't covet anything"?... bad bad bad)

Only 2 of the ten commandments are even good rules, and both of those were illegal for centuries before the Jews came along and gave credit to god for them

And, if they are such amazing commandments, why do the Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all believe in a different set of 10?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#The_Ten_Commandments

If god was any good at predicting the future, he would have made commandments like:
"Thou shalt not have sexual relationships with children (talking to you priests)"
or "Thou shalt not own another human being as a slave"
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October 12, 2018, 04:13:08 PM
 #8166

Stay away from that evil Biology you hate so much.  It only stresses you, it is not good for your health.

If you stay away from biology you won't ever fully understand the human condition.

metaphysical - I do not spend one second of my life on philosophy.  Complete waste of time, IMHO.

Similarly if you stay away from metaphysics you won't ever fully understand Biology as you will fail to grasp the assumptions inherent within it.

Suggested further reading:

FUNDAMENTAL UNSOLVED PROBLEMS OF BIOLOGY
https://thewinnower.com/papers/3497-a-teleological-metaphysics-for-biology-hierarchical-purposive-conscious-governing-entities-direct-evolutionary-processes

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October 12, 2018, 05:22:42 PM
 #8167


I would NOT agree that the ten commandments are good... since you brought it up, lets talk about them:
...
Only 2 of the ten commandments are even good rules, and both of those were illegal for centuries before the Jews came along and gave credit to god for them

And, if they are such amazing commandments, why do the Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all believe in a different set of 10?
...

The difference in the commandments between denomiminations is just the choice of how to group the paragraph of commandments listed in the Bible into 10 discrete items. It's not a fundamental difference in content.

I could not disagree more with your analysis. If you want to understand the opposing argument I highly recommend Dennis Prager's excellent video series on the topic. Each video is only 5 minutes long so you may want to start with the commandment you feel is the most "flawed" first if you don't want to watch them all.

The Ten Commandments: What You Should Know

1) I am the Lord Your God

2) No Other Gods

3) Do Not Misuse God's Name

4) Remember the Sabbath

5) Honor Your Father and Mother

6) Do Not Murder

7) Do Not Commit Adultery

8 ) Do Not Steal

9) Do Not Bear False Witness

10) Do Not Covet


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October 12, 2018, 05:32:53 PM
Merited by af_newbie (5)
 #8168


I would NOT agree that the ten commandments are good... since you brought it up, lets talk about them:
...
Only 2 of the ten commandments are even good rules, and both of those were illegal for centuries before the Jews came along and gave credit to god for them

And, if they are such amazing commandments, why do the Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all believe in a different set of 10?
...

The difference in the commandments between denomiminations is just the choice of how to group the paragraph of commandments listed in the Bible into 10 discrete items. It's not a fundamental difference in content.

I could not disagree more with your analysis. If you want to understand the opposing argument I highly recommend Dennis Prager's excellent video series on the topic. Each video is only 5 minutes long so you may want to start with the commandment you feel is the most "flawed" first if you don't want to watch them all.

The Ten Commandments: What You Should Know

1) I am the Lord Your God

2) No Other Gods

3) Do Not Misuse God's Name

4) Remember the Sabbath

5) Honor Your Father and Mother

6) Do Not Murder

7) Do Not Commit Adultery

8 ) Do Not Steal

9) Do Not Bear False Witness

10) Do Not Covet



4 and 6 are in direct conflict. God himself told people to kill other people if they were working on the sabbath. There is a passage where god makes someone, moises i think to kill someone else because he was gathering sticks on the sabbath.

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October 12, 2018, 05:59:23 PM
 #8169

I would NOT agree that the ten commandments are good... since you brought it up, lets talk about them:

It was just an example showing that most atheist are willing to act "good" and "moral" without any religious rules telling them to do so.

Only 2 of the ten commandments are even good rules, and both of those were illegal for centuries before the Jews came along and gave credit to god for them

I wont discuss how many of them are good rules because everyone can have different opinion on that.
I don't think it's about giving credit to God, but almighty God and hell is another way to enforce people to follow these rules, to scare them - and this is why atheists hate religions for.


And, if they are such amazing commandments, why do the Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all believe in a different set of 10?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#The_Ten_Commandments

There are many reasons for that, there should be one version of it ideally.

If god was any good at predicting the future, he would have made commandments like:
"Thou shalt not have sexual relationships with children (talking to you priests)"
or "Thou shalt not own another human being as a slave"

Haha, there are only 10 of them, looks like these things are not as important.
And slaves were common, do remember that these commandments are made by Jewish God and targeted at Jews, why Jewish people shouldn't be allowed to have foreign people who don't believe in their God as slaves?

4 and 6 are in direct conflict. God himself told people to kill other people if they were working on the sabbath. There is a passage where god makes someone, moises i think to kill someone else because he was gathering sticks on the sabbath.

Killing is not forbidden, murdering is.

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October 12, 2018, 06:06:36 PM
 #8170


4 and 6 are in direct conflict. God himself told people to kill other people if they were working on the sabbath. There is a passage where god makes someone, moises i think to kill someone else because he was gathering sticks on the sabbath.
Checkmate CoinCube.

Exodus 35:2  All mighty has spoken  Grin

Capital punishment under a societies laws for one who has willingly and knowingly violated those laws is not murder.

Similarly executing a rapist or thief if those were the punishments prescribed by law would not be murder.

You can debate the moral merits of the commandments but they are not self-contradictory.

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October 12, 2018, 06:14:58 PM
 #8171


So you think that killing someone today because they worked on Sabbath is not murder?

Since there is no law on the books in the USA that prescribes capital punishment for working on the sabbath yes it would be murder.

Do you think executing a convicted rapist and killer is murder?

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October 12, 2018, 06:28:32 PM
 #8172


So you think that killing someone today because they worked on Sabbath is not murder?

Since there is no law on the books in the USA that prescribes capital punishment for working on the sabbath yes it would be murder.
...

So the 10 commandments are contradictory today.

Let's see the next idiotic thing he says now. He wants to defend the bible but he doesn't have the guts to execute someone for working on the sabbath, what a pussy.

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CoinCube
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October 12, 2018, 06:30:27 PM
 #8173


So the 10 commandments are contradictory today.

The 10 commandments say nothing about the punishment for violating them. Clearly today there is no immediate worldly punishment for violating many of them.

Other parts of the Bible do describe how the ancient Israelites attempted to enforce them but those are discussed elsewhere.

You seem to be attempting to show that the commandments are bad because they cannot be effectively enforced in modern times. I won't go into the logical flaws of that argument because they are self evident.

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October 12, 2018, 06:40:50 PM
 #8174

Let's see the next idiotic thing he says now. He wants to defend the bible but he doesn't have the guts to execute someone for working on the sabbath, what a pussy.

As a general rule when people are reduced to screaming and/or childish name calling it is a good sign they have lost the argument.

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October 12, 2018, 07:06:57 PM
 #8175

Let's see the next idiotic thing he says now. He wants to defend the bible but he doesn't have the guts to execute someone for working on the sabbath, what a pussy.

As a general rule when people are reduced to screaming and/or childish name calling it is a good sign they have lost the argument.

Do you agree of killing people that work on the sabbath? Yes or No

\\\\\...COIN.....
...CURB...
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...FROM ALL THE PROJECTS YOU LOVE...
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October 12, 2018, 07:09:26 PM
 #8176


So other parts were written by a different God. I think I understand.

Talk about delusion. Truly umbelievable. You guys should be studied by neuroscientists.

I just urge you all not to go through what is written in the Bible. Otherwise we will have a bloodbath.

Now you are just rambling. This really is not that complex. If you want to evaluate the merits of the Ten Commandments stop changing the subject to other areas of the Bible or state enforcement.

All you need to do is honestly ask if society would be a better place if most people voluntarily chose to follow them. The answer to that question is clear as demonstrated by Dennis Prager above.

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October 12, 2018, 07:34:48 PM
 #8177


I just followed you down your rabbit hole.  I did the same with notbatman, with the same result, apparently.

No this is Moloch rabbit hole. He is the one who wanted to talk about the moral merits of the 10 commandments and you seem to want to talk about everything else besides the topic raised.

The question was are the ten commandments good? That is what Dennis Prager address.

You keep wanting to talk about the problems that arise from forcing everyone to follow them under penalty of law. Different topic entirely.

Do you agree of killing people that work on the sabbath? Yes or No

I literally just answered this question minutes ago.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg46806852#msg46806852

No I do not believe we should murder people.

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October 12, 2018, 10:32:43 PM
 #8178


I just followed you down your rabbit hole.  I did the same with notbatman, with the same result, apparently.

No this is Moloch rabbit hole. He is the one who wanted to talk about the moral merits of the 10 commandments and you seem to want to talk about everything else besides the topic raised.

The question was are the ten commandments good? That is what Dennis Prager address.

You keep wanting to talk about the problems that arise from forcing everyone to follow them under penalty of law. Different topic entirely.

Do you agree of killing people that work on the sabbath? Yes or No

I literally just answered this question minutes ago.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg46806852#msg46806852

No I do not believe we should murder people.


Who cares about US laws? God is the ultimate moral guide, remember? If he says it's ok to kill people who work in the sabbath, it is and you should be following his guidelines.

\\\\\...COIN.....
...CURB...
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...FROM ALL THE PROJECTS YOU LOVE...
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October 13, 2018, 12:48:20 AM
Last edit: October 13, 2018, 02:59:28 AM by CoinCube
 #8179


Who cares about US laws? God is the ultimate moral guide, remember? If he says it's ok to kill people who work in the sabbath, it is and you should be following his guidelines.

Why are you so disorganized in your thinking? I thought you valued science and logic.

Ok one last time the question above was Are the 10 commandments good?

You are attempting to answer a different question. You are asking if we should execute people who break one of the 10 commandments. That's a different question which I can only assume you are obsessed with because the answer to the actual question is so obviously yes they are good.

Nevertheless since you appear to be very concerned with this particular query I will walk you step by step through the logic of how to figure it out.

#1 First you need to determine if the commandments are good. Dennis Prager videos are a good place to start on that front. Hint: The answer is yes they are.

#2 Second you need to figure out the best way for society to implement good commandments. That gets a little tricker but the answer is that it is best if they are willingly and voluntary agreed to and followed.

#3 Third once you determine rules are good and should be followed voluntarily you need to decide if the rules should be codified into law with punishments to force compliance upon those who disagree with the rules.

Here it gets very tricky. How much freedom do we extend to people who don't agree us. Clearly in the case of murder not much. We cannot extend much freedom at all to the murderer regardless of how strongly he justifies murder or society will soon crumble.

In other areas like adultery it is harder. Adultry is clearly harmful to society but should we make it a crime? The more we legislate morality via force the more we reduce the value inherent in making the right choices. When in doubt it is better to error on the side of freedom especially when the fallout for evil actions can be largely contained with consequences falling mostly on the perpetrators. Part of the learning process requires the ability to error and learn from those errors.

#4 Finally if you determine that it is necessary to legislate a rule into law you need to determine a punishment for breaking the law. This is your question. Should we execute people who work on the Sabbath.

Your question about executions is not really an honest question because it assumes the answer to steps 1-3 are all yes which I very much doubt you believe.

Nevertheless, since you are so interested in my answer it is no. I think people should voluntarily go to Church or Synagogue on the Sabbath and not work, but the consequences for not doing so largely falls on them. One way these consequences manifest is in reduced health and happiness as I outlined in the Health and Religion thread. Thus I think not working on the Sabbath should be voluntarily followed and not codified into law.

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October 13, 2018, 04:12:58 AM
 #8180

So I see 2 threads of why islam hates people or why people hate Islam. I dont see the point of such a mundane debate based on religion any debate for or against religion would be stupid. Either you are stupid to believe what a prophet / god / divine entity said or you are stupid enough to believe you can change the minds of the bleak minded people who follow such a prophet / god / divine entity.

But since its fun let me initiate my own brand of 'why do' topic.

WHY DO ATHEISTS (like me) HATE RELIGION ?

Seriously what has to happen in a person's life for them to seriously give up hope on the one true everlasting brand (of religion) which their ancestors have followed for generations.

Everyone has their own story even I have mine, so lets hear some of it.




Religion in this world is one.
We believe in God or do not believe, everything is simple.
We are one big religion, but we have been divided into many parts and cultures, alas
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