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Author Topic: Obyte: Totally new consensus algorithm + private untraceable payments  (Read 1230651 times)
cryptohunter
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December 11, 2016, 09:22:35 AM
Last edit: December 11, 2016, 09:36:38 AM by cryptohunter
 #1621

How come all the people now starting to wake up to what a disaster this kind of distribution model is?

Nobody will invest in it at any point above a tiny satoshi value since it is simply open to huge manipulation from large ICOs and exchanges and BTC whales.

Who would ever intend to have such an unfair distributional model to start with. That is open so such manipulation with some many large holders having a vested interest in seeing it crushed.

I will link my wallets but will dump the moment it hits exchange.

Whilst jl777 is dumping his bags along with the other icos and driving the price of BB into the ground whilst extracting BTC for his own project (that most here probably didnt invest in at that is in direct competition with this coin and other alts people here hold )and whilst the exchanges are manipulating the markets with their huge bags and whilst BTC whales are pumping and dumping you all over and over it will never be safe to invest in above a tiny satoshi value.

Wait until those that didn't get in on the initial distribution of this. It will be the pariah of all pariah coins.

Strange I see a few people starting to wake up now when this has all been mentioned since the very start.

Those dreaming that adding their 20 BTC wallets to this will have any BB worth anything are dreaming. It will be the most manipulated coin released. Also it is in the interest of other large ICOs to crush the value whilst pumping and dumping for max BTC extraction. Imagine unregulated exchanges holding huge chunks of a coin from the start.

BB will attract not attract investors and will branded a pariah by those with mostly alts and no BTC.

I'm going to be linking my BTC wallets but I will dump immediately since of course that is the only sensible thing to do. Distribution like this doomed to be forked and given a sensible distribution.

This is insane, you may as well say all the development fund you should be having go to BB is going only to other competitors ICOS and they reward this project with crushing the price.

Even now there is time to pull back and do a sensible distributional model.

Create a POW coin with a 2 month mining phase that will be converted to BB at exchanges. Have a small CS too if you need some dev funding.

This is the WORST distributional model Ive ever seen. Even ripple is better at least the majority whale holders have an interest in seeing ripple rise in value and don't want to destroy small investors by pumping and dumping them over and over and driving future investment away.

These type of distributional models actually don't just serve to make the rich richer with no risk to them they crush the small alt holders in a HUGE way. This kind of coin dilutes your alt holdings whilst handing that over to the BTC whales. If other coins are allowed to follow this model you will see that BTC whales that do not want alts to exist will control the entire ALT market place too for no cost or risk to their BTC.

Time to wake up to those that thought they were getting something for free here. You are not getting anything for free, by allowing these types of distribution you are simply allowing BTC whales to now take huge swathes of the ALT market place for free. Any alts you have spent time accumulation value in will be diluted badly. They keep their BTC and take over huge % of the altcoins whilst your alts are diluted .,...even worse when you dump other alts to BTC to buy into this?? reducing further your alts market value and increasing BTC value. Win win win for the BTC whales and you alt coiners lose lose lose.














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December 11, 2016, 10:00:19 AM
 #1622

I would see no problem if the ICO whales did not dump the coins on the market shortly after launch.
The question is, how greedy are they? It would be interesting to see a statement of their intentions regarding the byteball project. Do they really believe that?
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December 11, 2016, 10:11:41 AM
 #1623

Whilst jl777 is dumping his bags along with the other icos and driving the price of BB into the ground whilst extracting BTC for his own project ... and whilst the exchanges are manipulating the markets with their huge bags and whilst BTC whales are pumping and dumping you all over and over it will never be safe to invest in above a tiny satoshi value.
I agree, with one exception: it won't be "Pump'n'Dump coin", for years and years it will be unique "Dump only coin".

Surely it is the author's decision, but there is one concern: with such "near the ground price" there will be no incentive for witnesses to run their nodes.
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December 11, 2016, 10:45:21 AM
 #1624

How come all the people now starting to wake up to what a disaster this kind of distribution model is?

Nobody will invest in it at any point above a tiny satoshi value since it is simply open to huge manipulation from large ICOs and exchanges and BTC whales.

Who would ever intend to have such an unfair distributional model to start with. That is open so such manipulation with some many large holders having a vested interest in seeing it crushed.

I will link my wallets but will dump the moment it hits exchange.

Whilst jl777 is dumping his bags along with the other icos and driving the price of BB into the ground whilst extracting BTC for his own project (that most here probably didnt invest in at that is in direct competition with this coin and other alts people here hold )and whilst the exchanges are manipulating the markets with their huge bags and whilst BTC whales are pumping and dumping you all over and over it will never be safe to invest in above a tiny satoshi value.

Wait until those that didn't get in on the initial distribution of this. It will be the pariah of all pariah coins.

Strange I see a few people starting to wake up now when this has all been mentioned since the very start.

Those dreaming that adding their 20 BTC wallets to this will have any BB worth anything are dreaming. It will be the most manipulated coin released. Also it is in the interest of other large ICOs to crush the value whilst pumping and dumping for max BTC extraction. Imagine unregulated exchanges holding huge chunks of a coin from the start.

BB will attract not attract investors and will branded a pariah by those with mostly alts and no BTC.

I'm going to be linking my BTC wallets but I will dump immediately since of course that is the only sensible thing to do. Distribution like this doomed to be forked and given a sensible distribution.

This is insane, you may as well say all the development fund you should be having go to BB is going only to other competitors ICOS and they reward this project with crushing the price.

Even now there is time to pull back and do a sensible distributional model.

Create a POW coin with a 2 month mining phase that will be converted to BB at exchanges. Have a small CS too if you need some dev funding.

This is the WORST distributional model Ive ever seen. Even ripple is better at least the majority whale holders have an interest in seeing ripple rise in value and don't want to destroy small investors by pumping and dumping them over and over and driving future investment away.

These type of distributional models actually don't just serve to make the rich richer with no risk to them they crush the small alt holders in a HUGE way. This kind of coin dilutes your alt holdings whilst handing that over to the BTC whales. If other coins are allowed to follow this model you will see that BTC whales that do not want alts to exist will control the entire ALT market place too for no cost or risk to their BTC.

Time to wake up to those that thought they were getting something for free here. You are not getting anything for free, by allowing these types of distribution you are simply allowing BTC whales to now take huge swathes of the ALT market place for free. Any alts you have spent time accumulation value in will be diluted badly. They keep their BTC and take over huge % of the altcoins whilst your alts are diluted .,...even worse when you dump other alts to BTC to buy into this?? reducing further your alts market value and increasing BTC value. Win win win for the BTC whales and you alt coiners lose lose lose.

Even if someone dump so what ? Their byteballs will be redistributed to the buyers and the distribution will be fair. And it's not a one time snapshot so it will bring attention to the next one anyway.

EDIT : And actually right now 20 BTC make the difference.

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December 11, 2016, 11:01:34 AM
 #1625

@all:

downloaded the livenet wallet and made the transaction of 0.000765 BTC as shown from my Ledger Nano S wallet. The bot and the blockr.io explorer say that my account is 0 BTC although there is more than 1.2 BTC in it Huh Huh There are more than 70 confirmations. Is there a problem with wallets changing their wallet adresses after an transaction?? Would it be possible to make a transaction from my exchange account (Poloniex e.g.) or just "normal" wallets? Thanks for your help Smiley

▄█████████████████▄▄▄
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██████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀█████████  ▄▄▄▄
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.DEVAULT.     
  ●   

.COMMUNITYE
.GOVERNANCE.
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  .ICOEE
PREMINE
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████
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December 11, 2016, 11:22:04 AM
 #1626

How come all the people now starting to wake up to what a disaster this kind of distribution model is?

Nobody will invest in it at any point above a tiny satoshi value since it is simply open to huge manipulation from large ICOs and exchanges and BTC whales.

Who would ever intend to have such an unfair distributional model to start with. That is open so such manipulation with some many large holders having a vested interest in seeing it crushed.

I will link my wallets but will dump the moment it hits exchange.

Whilst jl777 is dumping his bags along with the other icos and driving the price of BB into the ground whilst extracting BTC for his own project (that most here probably didnt invest in at that is in direct competition with this coin and other alts people here hold )and whilst the exchanges are manipulating the markets with their huge bags and whilst BTC whales are pumping and dumping you all over and over it will never be safe to invest in above a tiny satoshi value.

Wait until those that didn't get in on the initial distribution of this. It will be the pariah of all pariah coins.

Strange I see a few people starting to wake up now when this has all been mentioned since the very start.

Those dreaming that adding their 20 BTC wallets to this will have any BB worth anything are dreaming. It will be the most manipulated coin released. Also it is in the interest of other large ICOs to crush the value whilst pumping and dumping for max BTC extraction. Imagine unregulated exchanges holding huge chunks of a coin from the start.

BB will attract not attract investors and will branded a pariah by those with mostly alts and no BTC.

I'm going to be linking my BTC wallets but I will dump immediately since of course that is the only sensible thing to do. Distribution like this doomed to be forked and given a sensible distribution.

This is insane, you may as well say all the development fund you should be having go to BB is going only to other competitors ICOS and they reward this project with crushing the price.

Even now there is time to pull back and do a sensible distributional model.

Create a POW coin with a 2 month mining phase that will be converted to BB at exchanges. Have a small CS too if you need some dev funding.

This is the WORST distributional model Ive ever seen. Even ripple is better at least the majority whale holders have an interest in seeing ripple rise in value and don't want to destroy small investors by pumping and dumping them over and over and driving future investment away.

These type of distributional models actually don't just serve to make the rich richer with no risk to them they crush the small alt holders in a HUGE way. This kind of coin dilutes your alt holdings whilst handing that over to the BTC whales. If other coins are allowed to follow this model you will see that BTC whales that do not want alts to exist will control the entire ALT market place too for no cost or risk to their BTC.

Time to wake up to those that thought they were getting something for free here. You are not getting anything for free, by allowing these types of distribution you are simply allowing BTC whales to now take huge swathes of the ALT market place for free. Any alts you have spent time accumulation value in will be diluted badly. They keep their BTC and take over huge % of the altcoins whilst your alts are diluted .,...even worse when you dump other alts to BTC to buy into this?? reducing further your alts market value and increasing BTC value. Win win win for the BTC whales and you alt coiners lose lose lose.

Even if someone dump so what ? Their byteballs will be redistributed to the buyers and the distribution will be fair. And it's not a one time snapshot so it will bring attention to the next one anyway.

EDIT : And actually right now 20 BTC make the difference.

90% of the coins are going to whales. you really want that distribution?

airdrops are complicated. you need a large databank with unique registrations.

the only airdrop working is giving every adress the same amount of coins.

you could announce the registration 12 hours before the airdrop with a google document service (so your network is not breaking down) which takes a certain amount of time to fill out and an ip number lock up per every registration.


you have to prevent big whales taking over the coindistribution, otherwise it will be a broken coin. everyone will say, this coin is to avoid because of distribution to big whales. almost every shitcoins distribution is going to big whales and no one is trading them because of that.

the other question is, if you want to give 90% of your coins to whales, so they make BB bigger. But moralistic is that not.
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December 11, 2016, 11:31:33 AM
 #1627

@all:

downloaded the livenet wallet and made the transaction of 0.000765 BTC as shown from my Ledger Nano S wallet. The bot and the blockr.io explorer say that my account is 0 BTC although there is more than 1.2 BTC in it Huh Huh There are more than 70 confirmations. Is there a problem with wallets changing their wallet adresses after an transaction?? Would it be possible to make a transaction from my exchange account (Poloniex e.g.) or just "normal" wallets? Thanks for your help Smiley

Because the Ledger have send your coin to a new "change" address, so you have to send your coin back to the address you have validate.

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December 11, 2016, 11:32:28 AM
 #1628

How come all the people now starting to wake up to what a disaster this kind of distribution model is?

Nobody will invest in it at any point above a tiny satoshi value since it is simply open to huge manipulation from large ICOs and exchanges and BTC whales.

Who would ever intend to have such an unfair distributional model to start with. That is open so such manipulation with some many large holders having a vested interest in seeing it crushed.

I will link my wallets but will dump the moment it hits exchange.

Whilst jl777 is dumping his bags along with the other icos and driving the price of BB into the ground whilst extracting BTC for his own project (that most here probably didnt invest in at that is in direct competition with this coin and other alts people here hold )and whilst the exchanges are manipulating the markets with their huge bags and whilst BTC whales are pumping and dumping you all over and over it will never be safe to invest in above a tiny satoshi value.

Wait until those that didn't get in on the initial distribution of this. It will be the pariah of all pariah coins.

Strange I see a few people starting to wake up now when this has all been mentioned since the very start.

Those dreaming that adding their 20 BTC wallets to this will have any BB worth anything are dreaming. It will be the most manipulated coin released. Also it is in the interest of other large ICOs to crush the value whilst pumping and dumping for max BTC extraction. Imagine unregulated exchanges holding huge chunks of a coin from the start.

BB will attract not attract investors and will branded a pariah by those with mostly alts and no BTC.

I'm going to be linking my BTC wallets but I will dump immediately since of course that is the only sensible thing to do. Distribution like this doomed to be forked and given a sensible distribution.

This is insane, you may as well say all the development fund you should be having go to BB is going only to other competitors ICOS and they reward this project with crushing the price.

Even now there is time to pull back and do a sensible distributional model.

Create a POW coin with a 2 month mining phase that will be converted to BB at exchanges. Have a small CS too if you need some dev funding.

This is the WORST distributional model Ive ever seen. Even ripple is better at least the majority whale holders have an interest in seeing ripple rise in value and don't want to destroy small investors by pumping and dumping them over and over and driving future investment away.

These type of distributional models actually don't just serve to make the rich richer with no risk to them they crush the small alt holders in a HUGE way. This kind of coin dilutes your alt holdings whilst handing that over to the BTC whales. If other coins are allowed to follow this model you will see that BTC whales that do not want alts to exist will control the entire ALT market place too for no cost or risk to their BTC.

Time to wake up to those that thought they were getting something for free here. You are not getting anything for free, by allowing these types of distribution you are simply allowing BTC whales to now take huge swathes of the ALT market place for free. Any alts you have spent time accumulation value in will be diluted badly. They keep their BTC and take over huge % of the altcoins whilst your alts are diluted .,...even worse when you dump other alts to BTC to buy into this?? reducing further your alts market value and increasing BTC value. Win win win for the BTC whales and you alt coiners lose lose lose.

Even if someone dump so what ? Their byteballs will be redistributed to the buyers and the distribution will be fair. And it's not a one time snapshot so it will bring attention to the next one anyway.

EDIT : And actually right now 20 BTC make the difference.

90% of the coins are going to whales. you really want that distribution?

airdrops are complicated. you need a large databank with unique registrations.

the only airdrop working is giving every adress the same amount of coins.

you could announce the registration 12 hours before the airdrop with a google document service (so your network is not breaking down) which takes a certain amount of time to fill out and an ip number lock up per every registration.


you have to prevent big whales taking over the coindistribution, otherwise it will be a broken coin. everyone will say, this coin is to avoid because of distribution to big whales. almost every shitcoins distribution is going to big whales and no one is trading them because of that.

the other question is, if you want to give 90% of your coins to whales, so they make BB bigger. But moralistic is that not.


There will be whales whatever you do. So don't fight them because it's useless but use them and put them on your side.

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December 11, 2016, 11:38:29 AM
 #1629

Why would lowering the micropayment be riskier than with the current micropayments? (because they would be easily spotted?)

Because the attack would become cheaper, hence worthwhile.

mmmm, in my opinion the attack is already worthwhile, anyway such an attack won't succeed unless the attackee is not vigilant and doesn't double check their address (as the bot instructs them), so why not lower it if it permits to filter out exchanges addresses at the detection process (not requiring you to check suspect addresses)?

People do make mistakes, and having to be overly vigilant scares them off.  I'd rather have a more comfortable environment for the entire process.
The attacker's ROI depends on 3 factors:
- % of people who do not check that the address is theirs after receiving a second notification "Received your payment from ..." (the attacker's microtransaction is almost certainly later than the legitimate one)
- average balance of such users
- cost of attacking, which is the average amount of the microtransaction
By lowering the cost, we turn the ROI at some point from negative to positive.

I see your point. If you are comfortable with filtering out exchanges addresses after adding them and then investigating them, then there is no need to lower the micropayment. Yet, I still think lowering it would easily filter any exchange address out as the transaction won't be possible to begin with. (and if I were an attacker, paying (n times) 0.000x instead of 0.0000x wouldn't hurt my ROI that much Smiley).

I agree, but instead of manual filtering, maybe requiring signatures on an amount above X would be beneficial since it wouldn't be hurting anyone; those who are not good at technology usually own less Bitcoin. Plus, it would greatly reduce the effect of those who are putting in exchange/joint wallet addresses. That way, it would only exclude those who cheat the system.

Could we just ask big exchanges to claim and distribute their Byteball to their users ? Like Poloniex and others exchange did with Ardor distribution ?

Because really that would make everyone life easier and more people will be aware about Byteball.

You could be right. Exchanges did exactly the same with the free Ardor they got. To archive this good communication with the exchanges is key.


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December 11, 2016, 12:18:00 PM
 #1630

tonych decided to keep   ... an additional 1% for further expenses, promotion, etc. related to the project.
No, he did not:
One last thing.  The remaining 1% will be given away to the first 100m users who install Byteball wallet, 100 Kbytes to each user.
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December 11, 2016, 12:47:29 PM
 #1631

tonych decided to keep   ... an additional 1% for further expenses, promotion, etc. related to the project.
No, he did not:
One last thing.  The remaining 1% will be given away to the first 100m users who install Byteball wallet, 100 Kbytes to each user.

I must have missed (or not paid attention to) this.  So 1% for tonych, 1% for people who install wallet, and 0% for the other things I mentioned?  Although the actual point of my post stands regardless.

Tony deserves a stake in his own coin, this is fair and reasonable for ongoing development.

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December 11, 2016, 12:54:48 PM
Last edit: December 11, 2016, 01:10:30 PM by cryptohunter
 #1632

...

Dude, sorry, you're the one that needs to wake up.  It would take ages for me to argue such baloney (it's not coming only from you), so I'll keep it short:

  • Everything you're witnessing here is in lieu of a crowdfund.
  • Instead of asking for BTC, tonych decided to keep 1% for him and an additional 1% for further expenses, promotion, etc. related to the project.
  • If at any point in the future tonych's 1% translates to a monetary value that he considers enough for his blood, sweat & tears, then the distribution method currently chosen WILL BE deemed a success (assuming the additional 1% will also be enough for the rest at that point).
  • Any and all arguments against said distribution method ought to revolve around the mentioned 2% (i.e. the case where potential future valuation will not cut it).  Or else it's just self-interest babble.

Dude, Usually you post good stuff but in this case I prefer that you take each of my points and present a logical and factual counter argument instead of calling it baloney. In fact nothing in your retort has any bearing on what I posted. Tonych's angle is not even covered in my post. It is as if you have no counter arguements to what I have put so have chosen to call it baloney and divert to something not even directly related.

I am not saying Tonych is a scammer or is taking more than his fair share. I do not mention his personal gain or otherwise. I don't care if the dev keeps 20% so long as there is ledger for expenses and wages.
This method of distribution is not good for alt holders at all.
This kind of distribution is worse for alts than ICO's.




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December 11, 2016, 01:01:08 PM
 #1633

How come all the people now starting to wake up to what a disaster this kind of distribution model is?

Nobody will invest in it at any point above a tiny satoshi value since it is simply open to huge manipulation from large ICOs and exchanges and BTC whales.

Who would ever intend to have such an unfair distributional model to start with. That is open so such manipulation with some many large holders having a vested interest in seeing it crushed.

I will link my wallets but will dump the moment it hits exchange.

Whilst jl777 is dumping his bags along with the other icos and driving the price of BB into the ground whilst extracting BTC for his own project (that most here probably didnt invest in at that is in direct competition with this coin and other alts people here hold )and whilst the exchanges are manipulating the markets with their huge bags and whilst BTC whales are pumping and dumping you all over and over it will never be safe to invest in above a tiny satoshi value.

Wait until those that didn't get in on the initial distribution of this. It will be the pariah of all pariah coins.

Strange I see a few people starting to wake up now when this has all been mentioned since the very start.

Those dreaming that adding their 20 BTC wallets to this will have any BB worth anything are dreaming. It will be the most manipulated coin released. Also it is in the interest of other large ICOs to crush the value whilst pumping and dumping for max BTC extraction. Imagine unregulated exchanges holding huge chunks of a coin from the start.

BB will attract not attract investors and will branded a pariah by those with mostly alts and no BTC.

I'm going to be linking my BTC wallets but I will dump immediately since of course that is the only sensible thing to do. Distribution like this doomed to be forked and given a sensible distribution.

This is insane, you may as well say all the development fund you should be having go to BB is going only to other competitors ICOS and they reward this project with crushing the price.

Even now there is time to pull back and do a sensible distributional model.

Create a POW coin with a 2 month mining phase that will be converted to BB at exchanges. Have a small CS too if you need some dev funding.

This is the WORST distributional model Ive ever seen. Even ripple is better at least the majority whale holders have an interest in seeing ripple rise in value and don't want to destroy small investors by pumping and dumping them over and over and driving future investment away.

These type of distributional models actually don't just serve to make the rich richer with no risk to them they crush the small alt holders in a HUGE way. This kind of coin dilutes your alt holdings whilst handing that over to the BTC whales. If other coins are allowed to follow this model you will see that BTC whales that do not want alts to exist will control the entire ALT market place too for no cost or risk to their BTC.

Time to wake up to those that thought they were getting something for free here. You are not getting anything for free, by allowing these types of distribution you are simply allowing BTC whales to now take huge swathes of the ALT market place for free. Any alts you have spent time accumulation value in will be diluted badly. They keep their BTC and take over huge % of the altcoins whilst your alts are diluted .,...even worse when you dump other alts to BTC to buy into this?? reducing further your alts market value and increasing BTC value. Win win win for the BTC whales and you alt coiners lose lose lose.

Even if someone dump so what ? Their byteballs will be redistributed to the buyers and the distribution will be fair. And it's not a one time snapshot so it will bring attention to the next one anyway.

EDIT : And actually right now 20 BTC make the difference.

90% of the coins are going to whales. you really want that distribution?

airdrops are complicated. you need a large databank with unique registrations.

the only airdrop working is giving every adress the same amount of coins.

you could announce the registration 12 hours before the airdrop with a google document service (so your network is not breaking down) which takes a certain amount of time to fill out and an ip number lock up per every registration.


you have to prevent big whales taking over the coindistribution, otherwise it will be a broken coin. everyone will say, this coin is to avoid because of distribution to big whales. almost every shitcoins distribution is going to big whales and no one is trading them because of that.

the other question is, if you want to give 90% of your coins to whales, so they make BB bigger. But moralistic is that not.


There will be whales whatever you do. So don't fight them because it's useless but use them and put them on your side.

This argument does not hold water.

Produce a POW coin with fair launch protocol and then token swap on exchange later.

Even in the ICOs the whales have to risk BTC for the new tokens. In this way the Whales risk nothing and still get to be whales in the new alt ..so it is even worse than an ICO. Also it starves this project of btc and give opposing project that BTC whilst giving them incentive to crush this project whilst liquidating BB into BTC to feed their project. How many levels can this be a bad idea on?

POW with fair launch protocol trumps ICO's on here by mile and ICO's trump this method of initial distribution.



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December 11, 2016, 02:44:16 PM
 #1634

Produce a POW coin with fair launch protocol and then token swap on exchange later.

POW is not suitable for the average user and will give advantage to the guys with big mining rigs. And the power costs in my country is magnitudes higher than in a lot of other countries (which prevented me to have a mining rig in the first place).

IMHO there is no 'fair distribution', I hope we can just achieve a wide distribution, that would already be a success.

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December 11, 2016, 02:52:52 PM
 #1635

This argument does not hold water.

Produce a POW coin with fair launch protocol and then token swap on exchange later.
And what might that be? Is having people with massive GPU farms or ASICS joining your coin right at the start fair?
Have it instamined like Darkcoin/Dash?
Fair POW distribution is as hard to achieve as any - if not harder.

Even in the ICOs the whales have to risk BTC for the new tokens. In this way the Whales risk nothing and still get to be whales in the new alt ..so it is even worse than an ICO. Also it starves this project of btc and give opposing project that BTC whilst giving them incentive to crush this project whilst liquidating BB into BTC to feed their project. How many levels can this be a bad idea on?

POW with fair launch protocol trumps ICO's on here by mile and ICO's trump this method of initial distribution

Like in Bitbay ICO? Fake volume, fake promise, fake everything ICO? Where was the risk in that?

I think it is highly unfair of you to come in here and shit from up high on tony like he is the worlds worst scammer.
At least he is experimenting with this distribution method and trying to do something unusual - inspired by Metcalfe's law.

It is worth a shot, so far it seems like everything is on the table. Join or not, it is your decision to make and, as you say, there is no risk in it Smiley

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December 11, 2016, 03:18:11 PM
 #1636

@seccour: thx for your answer. do you mean i have to do an IN-Ledger transaction or how does it function to send back my coins to my validate BTC adress?

▄█████████████████▄▄▄
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█████                ██████▀
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 ▀███▓▀   ▄▓███████▀▀▀┘
.DEVAULT.     
  ●   

.COMMUNITYE
.GOVERNANCE.
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  .ICOEE
PREMINE
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▐████████▀▀   ▄▄     ██████▌
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December 11, 2016, 03:21:17 PM
 #1637

This argument does not hold water.

Produce a POW coin with fair launch protocol and then token swap on exchange later.
And what might that be? Is having people with massive GPU farms or ASICS joining your coin right at the start fair?
Have it instamined like Darkcoin/Dash?
Fair POW distribution is as hard to achieve as any - if not harder.

Even in the ICOs the whales have to risk BTC for the new tokens. In this way the Whales risk nothing and still get to be whales in the new alt ..so it is even worse than an ICO. Also it starves this project of btc and give opposing project that BTC whilst giving them incentive to crush this project whilst liquidating BB into BTC to feed their project. How many levels can this be a bad idea on?

POW with fair launch protocol trumps ICO's on here by mile and ICO's trump this method of initial distribution

Like in Bitbay ICO? Fake volume, fake promise, fake everything ICO? Where was the risk in that?

I think it is highly unfair of you to come in here and shit from up high on tony like he is the worlds worst scammer.
At least he is experimenting with this distribution method and trying to do something unusual - inspired by Metcalfe's law.

It is worth a shot, so far it seems like everything is on the table. Join or not, it is your decision to make and, as you say, there is no risk in it Smiley

Okay at the least you are trying to engage in meaningful discussion. So I will discuss and debate this with you in public on civil terms.

And what might that be? Is having people with massive GPU farms or ASICS joining your coin right at the start fair?
Have it instamined like Darkcoin/Dash?
Fair POW distribution is as hard to achieve as any - if not harder


The key is a fair release protocol for POW.

1. announced ahead of time
2. anti instamine meansures - rapid diff adjust and low coin reward for early blocks
3. anyone can hire or lease rigs or buy coins dumped by miners. The only real variable is electricity cost. GPU farms have invested money into hardware that could be used to simply buy the mined coins etc etc. You can lease gpu power or buy your own. The only real advantage is cost of electricity if the anti instamine measures are in place.

How does this compare to the fact BTC whales simply take it all by risking or spending nothing further. It is ridiculous to say that instantly just creating whales via this method is comparable to having everyone fight on a fair playing field except for electricity cost. Over such a short POW phase this factor is not really as large as it seems either.




Like in Bitbay ICO? Fake volume, fake promise, fake everything ICO? Where was the risk in that?

Exactly my point. Bitcoin whales (except those running the scam and actually the only whale there was really the exchange owner of bter since I would not have called bob previous to the scam a btc whale) had to risk their BTC to become whales in bitbay. Bitbay is a prime example of why you need fair or acceptable ICO protocols with escrows and multisigs holding the funding and released only for milestones met.

A fairly advertised and carefully run ICO is much better for alt coin investors and the project itself if it is not run by scammers. These points I have already explain in my previous posts and you can feel free to refute them as you like as long as you give reasonable logical evidence that we can all examine in public.


I think it is highly unfair of you to come in here and shit from up high on tony like he is the worlds worst scammer.
At least he is experimenting with this distribution method and trying to do something unusual - inspired by Metcalfe's law.



Again you have omitted most of my important points and have diverted to something I have never said which is both strange and telling. Please show me where I have indicated tonych is himself to benefit from this form of intial distribution more than if he were to keep even 20% with full ledger of costs as I suggest? This accusation again does not hold any water. I do not believe he owns 20% of BTC or even 20% of BTC that will link their wallets. Therefore me saying personally him keeping 20% for development with ledger would be okay does not imply I think him a scammer for keeping 1% and whatever BTC worth he will accrue.

This form of distribution is damaging to all alt holders including you who will even get to claim your small BTC worth. It is the wet dream of BTC whales who would love to see alts crushed.


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December 11, 2016, 03:30:29 PM
 #1638

Produce a POW coin with fair launch protocol and then token swap on exchange later.

POW is not suitable for the average user and will give advantage to the guys with big mining rigs. And the power costs in my country is magnitudes higher than in a lot of other countries (which prevented me to have a mining rig in the first place).

IMHO there is no 'fair distribution', I hope we can just achieve a wide distribution, that would already be a success.

Anyone can hire hash power and this would be a very short mining period. The only variable is really cost of electricity.

Miners will be taking a risk for the BB
Miners will be investing in it for real
Miners will stop BTC whales becoming BB whales with no risk to their BTC
Miner will stop other ICO owners using BB to crush the BB price to fund their own project
MIners will stop exchange owners being whales to manipulate the markets pumping and dumping on innocent investors.
Miners will stop ALT coin dilution in general.

The alternatives are the inverse of what miners will prevent.


Mining farms will have no advantage at all over anyone else except in the form perhaps of electricity savings and a small factor of buying their hardware over leasing. That was anyones choice to start with. They are not taking the whales share with no investment or risk.


If you are going to do an airdrop this is not the way. This is the worst way to conduct an air drop possible for this coin and all alts.










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December 11, 2016, 03:55:44 PM
 #1639

Not sure if you guys are already aware about but the Dutch translation is terrible. Don't hope this guy devpol did get paid for his automatically translation work done by a service like google translate. Translation work should be done by a native Dutch speaker.
if you do not mind to pay me 0.03 btc for  translation  Nederlands (Dutch)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1710955.0

sent to adress btc:

1HaGJdTbhm17GuT8NE5LAmjWjgdZW1Jm7w

thanks

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December 11, 2016, 04:08:43 PM
 #1640

Okay at the least you are trying to engage in meaningful discussion. So I will discuss and debate this with you in public on civil terms.

And what might that be? Is having people with massive GPU farms or ASICS joining your coin right at the start fair?
Have it instamined like Darkcoin/Dash?
Fair POW distribution is as hard to achieve as any - if not harder


The key is a fair release protocol for POW.

1. announced ahead of time
2. anti instamine meansures - rapid diff adjust and low coin reward for early blocks
3. anyone can hire or lease rigs or buy coins dumped by miners. The only real variable is electricity cost. GPU farms have invested money into hardware that could be used to simply buy the mined coins etc etc. You can lease gpu power or buy your own. The only real advantage is cost of electricity if the anti instamine measures are in place.

How does this compare to the fact BTC whales simply take it all by risking or spending nothing further. It is ridiculous to say that instantly just creating whales via this method is comparable to having everyone fight on a fair playing field except for electricity cost. Over such a short POW phase this factor is not really as large as it seems either.

I agree with your points, they were invented as a stopgap to enable "fairer" launches for POW coins.

The idea here, as far as I gather, is to achieve a wide distribution and to try to mimic BTC's network effect with all its ups and downs.
I think we would agree that no altcoin is as widely distributed as BTC, also I would dare to argue that other coins have bigger whales and to mimic their distribution would be even more disastrous (cue in NXT distribution for example).
Also, I believe the intention here is to lower the cost of entry into BB. Something you cannot achieve with any sort of POW / ICO launch.

Like in Bitbay ICO? Fake volume, fake promise, fake everything ICO? Where was the risk in that?

Exactly my point. Bitcoin whales (except those running the scam and actually the only whale there was really the exchange owner of bter since I would not have called bob previous to the scam a btc whale) had to risk their BTC to become whales in bitbay. Bitbay is a prime example of why you need fair or acceptable ICO protocols with escrows and multisigs holding the funding and released only for milestones met.

A fairly advertised and carefully run ICO is much better for alt coin investors and the project itself if it is not run by scammers. These points I have already explain in my previous posts and you can feel free to refute them as you like as long as you give reasonable logical evidence that we can all examine in public.
Bitbay scammers risked virtually nothing, because the scam was mostly done within BTER (I am obviously not focusing on any whale that might've bought in without being in cahoots with bob'n'co)

I am hard pressed to find ICO's that meet the criteria you wrote of above  - even if they do incorporate escrow and multisig, most of them just meander about with no real milestones.
I will concede the point that a properly run IPO is a way to gather funds which is accepted - even successful - in the "real world", however it took a while to get where we are now and I would hazard a guess that not many people here are willing to pay the regulatory price that comes with "properly run IPOs".

I see this sort of distribution also as a way of "getting us there" with regards to distribution models.

I think it is highly unfair of you to come in here and shit from up high on tony like he is the worlds worst scammer.
At least he is experimenting with this distribution method and trying to do something unusual - inspired by Metcalfe's law.



Again you have omitted most of my important points and have diverted to something I have never said which is both strange and telling. Please show me where I have indicated tonych is himself to benefit from this form of intial distribution more than if he were to keep even 20% with full ledger of costs as I suggest? This accusation again does not hold any water. I do not believe he owns 20% of BTC or even 20% of BTC that will link their wallets. Therefore me saying personally him keeping 20% for development with ledger would be okay does not imply I think him a scammer for keeping 1% and whatever BTC worth he will accrue.

This form of distribution is damaging to all alt holders including you who will even get to claim your small BTC worth. It is the wet dream of BTC whales who would love to see alts crushed.

You never shat upon directly, but I found your usage of all caps (WORST distribution) and overall tone to be one of derision. If I were mistaken, I apologize.
Therefore, there is no "telling" whatsoever here Smiley I hold no beef with you, nor anyone on this forum (well maybe a selected few Cheesy)

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