Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[johnyj]

I think bitpay are cashing out their bitcoin order and cause the bitcoin price to fall  

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[idee2013]

I guess the preorder ID is worth nothing.  The order numbers of the time they opened the payments are clearly different.

It's a disaster

Messy maybe.  But it seems like they have a system that isn't too hard to understand.  Pre-order does matter, it is used to determine your placement in the queue.

Examples:

Pre-Order #1 pays for his Jupiter today.  He is in the 7 day window, he will always be #1 in the shipping queue.  Even if Pre-Order #2 paid before him.

Pre-Order #501 pays for his Jupiter today.  He is in the 7 day window, he will be no worse than #501 to be shipped, unless someone with a lower Pre-Order number fails to pay.

Seems relatively easy to understand once I got that confirmation directly from KnC  

+1

i didn't want to write it again. this was said very often in this and the openday topic. But peoples who are to lazy to read more past posts made it more confused...at this often... i estimate one time a day in the last  days.
want somebody to bet if it will happen  in the next 2 days again?   

[KS]

I have read they partnered with ORSoC. That seems a legit and long living company thats trustworthy. But i dont remember to read how much financially KNCMiner is invested into ORSoC. I mean how much money did they put into ORSoC? Partnering could mean that ORSoC is paying the development and creation of the chips out of their own pockets. Were there numbers how much money KNCMiner put into ORSoC somewhere? If its much, and the amount of money KNCMiner got with their preorders isnt much higher, it would be a pretty good sign that KNCMiner is legit. Because they cant run easily.
Only thing to consider then would be the time when the miners are in customers hands.

A partnership doesn't mean you'll put any money into the other company.

The way I see it, KNCMINER will handle the front of the house and ORSoC the back. KNCMINER with take care or orders and payments and ORSoC will bill them, as a supplier.

This way, the risky bit (debt) is with KNCMINER while the profits can stay with ORSoC. If things go pear shaped, bankrupting KNCMINER will be much cheaper (and the profits are more or less safe with ORSoC - I'm sure though that Sweden must have some rule like "money that has been paid by KNCMINER to X,Y,Z within the last xx months needs to be returned and shared amongst all the creditors/state/banks/whatnot", so it's not all bad).

Please understand (KS I'm sure you do) there is a reputational element.

For all intents and purposes time is a healer etc. but any misappropriation of funds or failure would cause significant problems for them in future. Being affiliated with Bitcoin, there is a public relations risk for them I'm sure they don't want a failure on their hands. It's more than other people's money...

Not just misappropriation of funds, but bad management.

The goose with the golden eggs is ORSoC. If KNCMINER fails as a company, ORSoC can find another shell company to sell same or similar miners, can take over the clientele and generally let KNCMINER die and the accumulated debt with it (if debt is the killer).

That's an "old" business strategy: keep the money safe from the debt.

Same if the directors decide to split. KNCMINER is dead and ORSoC can take over the business directly or indirectly.

That doesn't mean ORSoC's reputation will suffer one bit. It depends how they will spin it and what they will do about it (if they don't do anything, it will be bad, but if they offer to take over support, they'll be seen as saviors).

[keyzersoze]

SO, trigger is pulled. Saturn is payed for.
Now, we just sit back and mentally visualize the blockdifficulty gently rocking onto the shores of 150 mil by the time we get these babies

[HeRetiK]

SO, trigger is pulled. Saturn is payed for.
Now, we just sit back and mentally visualize the blockdifficulty gently rocking onto the shores of 150 mil by the time we get these babies

if that's the blockdifficulty gently rocking onto the shores of 150 mil i don't wanna know what a tsunami would look like

[nosurrender]

I have read they partnered with ORSoC. That seems a legit and long living company thats trustworthy. But i dont remember to read how much financially KNCMiner is invested into ORSoC. I mean how much money did they put into ORSoC? Partnering could mean that ORSoC is paying the development and creation of the chips out of their own pockets. Were there numbers how much money KNCMiner put into ORSoC somewhere? If its much, and the amount of money KNCMiner got with their preorders isnt much higher, it would be a pretty good sign that KNCMiner is legit. Because they cant run easily.
Only thing to consider then would be the time when the miners are in customers hands.

A partnership doesn't mean you'll put any money into the other company.

The way I see it, KNCMINER will handle the front of the house and ORSoC the back. KNCMINER with take care or orders and payments and ORSoC will bill them, as a supplier.

This way, the risky bit (debt) is with KNCMINER while the profits can stay with ORSoC. If things go pear shaped, bankrupting KNCMINER will be much cheaper (and the profits are more or less safe with ORSoC - I'm sure though that Sweden must have some rule like "money that has been paid by KNCMINER to X,Y,Z within the last xx months needs to be returned and shared amongst all the creditors/state/banks/whatnot", so it's not all bad).

Please understand (KS I'm sure you do) there is a reputational element.

For all intents and purposes time is a healer etc. but any misappropriation of funds or failure would cause significant problems for them in future. Being affiliated with Bitcoin, there is a public relations risk for them I'm sure they don't want a failure on their hands. It's more than other people's money...

Not just misappropriation of funds, but bad management.

The goose with the golden eggs is ORSoC. If KNCMINER fails as a company, ORSoC can find another shell company to sell same or similar miners, can take over the clientele and generally let KNCMINER die and the accumulated debt with it (if debt is the killer).

That's an "old" business strategy: keep the money safe from the debt.

Same if the directors decide to split. KNCMINER is dead and ORSoC can take over the business directly or indirectly.

That doesn't mean ORSoC's reputation will suffer one bit. It depends how they will spin it and what they will do about it (if they don't do anything, it will be bad, but if they offer to take over support, they'll be seen as saviors).

I´m not defending nor accusing one or the other side of this arrangement - but in case of illiquidity of KNC they can´t just drop the business and leave. There would be formal    insolvency proceedings, a liquidator would be commissioned by court. One creditor (ORSoC) wouldn´t be favored over other creditors (e.g. customers). Financial transactions can be forced to take back for a time frame up to 3 month. If two companies are involved, both would could be hold accountable for fraudulent charges in court. Also the acting managers could be hold responsible personally even with there stakes in other companies.

Not saying, pre-paid money is safe, just saying, European Laws in case of bankruptcy are quite strict and although I know, that doesn´t make it impossible to get burned, it could be an advantage to deal with legit companies compared to deals with completely unknown people from literally anywhere in the world.

[Bitcoinorama]

I have read they partnered with ORSoC. That seems a legit and long living company thats trustworthy. But i dont remember to read how much financially KNCMiner is invested into ORSoC. I mean how much money did they put into ORSoC? Partnering could mean that ORSoC is paying the development and creation of the chips out of their own pockets. Were there numbers how much money KNCMiner put into ORSoC somewhere? If its much, and the amount of money KNCMiner got with their preorders isnt much higher, it would be a pretty good sign that KNCMiner is legit. Because they cant run easily.
Only thing to consider then would be the time when the miners are in customers hands.

A partnership doesn't mean you'll put any money into the other company.

The way I see it, KNCMINER will handle the front of the house and ORSoC the back. KNCMINER with take care or orders and payments and ORSoC will bill them, as a supplier.

This way, the risky bit (debt) is with KNCMINER while the profits can stay with ORSoC. If things go pear shaped, bankrupting KNCMINER will be much cheaper (and the profits are more or less safe with ORSoC - I'm sure though that Sweden must have some rule like "money that has been paid by KNCMINER to X,Y,Z within the last xx months needs to be returned and shared amongst all the creditors/state/banks/whatnot", so it's not all bad).

Please understand (KS I'm sure you do) there is a reputational element.

For all intents and purposes time is a healer etc. but any misappropriation of funds or failure would cause significant problems for them in future. Being affiliated with Bitcoin, there is a public relations risk for them I'm sure they don't want a failure on their hands. It's more than other people's money...

Not just misappropriation of funds, but bad management.

The goose with the golden eggs is ORSoC. If KNCMINER fails as a company, ORSoC can find another shell company to sell same or similar miners, can take over the clientele and generally let KNCMINER die and the accumulated debt with it (if debt is the killer).

That's an "old" business strategy: keep the money safe from the debt.

Same if the directors decide to split. KNCMINER is dead and ORSoC can take over the business directly or indirectly.

That doesn't mean ORSoC's reputation will suffer one bit. It depends how they will spin it and what they will do about it (if they don't do anything, it will be bad, but if they offer to take over support, they'll be seen as saviors).

I´m not defending nor accusing one or the other side of this arrangement - but in case of illiquidity of KNC they can´t just drop the business and leave. There would be formal    insolvency proceedings, a liquidator would be commissioned by court. One creditor (ORSoC) wouldn´t be favored over other creditors (e.g. customers). Financial transactions can be forced to take back for a time frame up to 3 month. If two companies are involved, both would could be hold accountable for fraudulent charges in court. Also the acting managers could be hold responsible personally even with there stakes in other companies.

Not saying, pre-paid money is safe, just saying, European Laws in case of bankruptcy are quite strict and although I know, that doesn´t make it impossible to get burned, it could be an advantage to deal with legit companies compared to deals with completely unknown people from literally anywhere in the world.

I went to Uni with a couple of guys that started up a student property business. They were popular guys at uni. They're actual method of acquiring housing, renovating and releasing equity to then acquire another property was sound. Rent was always covered as they chose an ideal point between the Uni and town and students were contracted for the entire year. They weren't satisfied and sought investors to expand. Without business sense or advice, they cheaped out on a local accountant that rather than advise, let them do whatever they liked. Unwittingly they misappropriated funds, added staff they didn't need (family members) and grew faster than they could handle. They had to seek investors constantly to meet the demands and expectations of investors already on board and wages (became a Ponzi). Furthermore houses they had promised were ready and rented weren't just there yet. Honestly they 'never meant to hurt anyone' originally, but they had delusions of grandeur. It ended messily. They had taken on other partners, created multiple companies within the main company, shifting liability here and there, never on themselves, new investors were courted and praised, old investors were treated like crap. They could never produce books so kept changing names and directors and basically ended up taking people for around £4 million allegedly the Financial Times said. Yes, the f***ing FT! P***ed investors have blogs about them. Two are motivated enough to chase these guys to the ends of the earth. Facebook pages hating on them, they are bankrupt, facing jail time once the receiver has worked out with what little bookkeeping there was, what the hell they were doing.

They were utterly irresponsible and some prople had invested their life savings. Their lives, quite justifiably are a living hell due to the greed hat blinded them.

When people are pissed and motivated enough they will never let go. These two and those directly connected to them have had their lives ruined. They'll never ever be leant money again. If you were to Google their names, all there is is bad press and they used to have a lot of great media.

I'm not going to mention their names, sad thing is they genuinely feel they're the victims and I'm sure monies have been siphoned somewhere from that equity. That said, the two were related as we're the family members involved and they really did loose the family home of their parents/aunt they they had grown up in.

KS please don't be so confident to believe the 'old strategy' outlined above works as seemingly as you state, i've witnessed such an attempt crash and burn badly. This is a new world of shared media and neither KnC or ORSoC want to be found misappropriating anything. ORSoC is a clean, reputationally strong 10-year old business without a blemish, regardless of whether legal liability is solely KnC's; associated moral liability by affiliation would lead to that name being tarnished if games were played. ORSoC's three acting as KnC's directors in an open KnC/ORSoC partnership are well aware of what is at stake. This is as high risk for them as it is for anyone else. Moreso, considering investors should only be risking funds they can afford, not debt themselves and have chosen preferred protected payment methods where possible.

Obviously risk exists and failure would lead to being advised as to how to keep existing assets in tact, hence knC assuming liability, and not ORSoC, but there is no way ORSoC escapes and continues untarnished and as the 'saviour' if something bad did happen. They don't want that at all, and neither does anyone else. ORSoC's business relies and revolves around their ability to be technically competent, not merely legal compliance...

[keyzersoze]

SO, trigger is pulled. Saturn is payed for.
Now, we just sit back and mentally visualize the blockdifficulty gently rocking onto the shores of 150 mil by the time we get these babies

if that's the blockdifficulty gently rocking onto the shores of 150 mil i don't wanna know what a tsunami would look like

My calculations are: 60-80 mil at about mid august, when "hopefully" my 130 bfl gh shows up. Early april order.
Then i see difficulty at least doubling, by the time knc gear starts showing up. That is if there are no significant delays on their part. And even these figures are kinda optimistic, if you want me to be real honest. We could all be mercilessly crashing into the concrete wave breakers of 250 mil, if everybody and his uncle starts buying 10-100K batches from avalon and bfl in 3 months time.

You'l probably just end up being dissapointed if you go any lower than this. And hey if it actually does end up being lower, pleasant surprise

Please let me know if im Waaaay off on either side of these figures.

[600watt]

concerning the kncminer project current miners have two choices: either invest in kncminer to keep the edge or try what they can do to make it harder for kncminer to succeed.

wannabe miners may have a stake in bfl = dissappointment, or in avalon = mostly dissappointment, or in avalon chip buy = compete with kncminer september deadline

since kncminer proposes to be a game changer this is the only reasonable entry point for anyone who wants to become a miner.

this is why kncminer threads are so inflated. high hopes vs high fears. sometimes within the same person...

[sickpig]

SO, trigger is pulled. Saturn is payed for.
Now, we just sit back and mentally visualize the blockdifficulty gently rocking onto the shores of 150 mil by the time we get these babies

if that's the blockdifficulty gently rocking onto the shores of 150 mil i don't wanna know what a tsunami would look like

My calculations are: 60-80 mil at about mid august, when "hopefully" my 130 bfl gh shows up. Early april order.
Then i see difficulty at least doubling, by the time knc gear starts showing up. That is if there are no significant delays on their part. And even these figures are kinda optimistic, if you want me to be real honest. We could all be mercilessly crashing into the concrete wave breakers of 250 mil, if everybody and his uncle starts buying 10-100K batches from avalon and bfl in 3 months time.

You'l probably just end up being dissapointed if you go any lower than this. And hey if it actually does end up being lower, pleasant surprise

Please let me know if im Waaaay off on either side of these figures.

if you care to share your data point I will check it carefully

anyhow based on all the players I'm aware of I had estimated something like 55mil by the 15th of September. Adding to it 10% just for the sake of being conservative and you get circa 61 mil. Based on the same data point I've estimated something like 135mil (148 if you had 10%) by Dec 31th.

[keyzersoze]

Well, I dont have any actual specific datapoints i could refer you to. it just basic head aritmathics, and gut feeling.
like you said, considering all the known players, adding in some unknown just for spookyness   and being just a tad bit more conservative than you. I arrive at almost the same figures.
But hey even based on this, you should break even on a Jupiter in about 2 months, and make around 30k in the first year. Thats with a profitabilty decline of about 0,5 per year, and not counting the 30% extra hashrate once the advanced algorithms by ORSoC are applied.
This is at current bitcoin value of about 120 usd.

[DPoS]

bitcoin value should swoon in the next 6 months unless the marketplace swells to make it better to spend the bitcoins instead of exchange them out to recover ROI in cash

also with bigger players getting bigger you could have more concentrated selling that can blow out weak bidding

if you don't think you can compete with miners, then sell things to them in btc.   

[glowkeeper]

Well, I dont have any actual specific datapoints i could refer you to. it just basic head aritmathics, and gut feeling.
like you said, considering all the known players, adding in some unknown just for spookyness   and being just a tad bit more conservative than you. I arrive at almost the same figures.
But hey even based on this, you should break even on a Jupiter in about 2 months, and make around 30k in the first year. Thats with a profitabilty decline of about 0,5 per year, and not counting the 30% extra hashrate once the advanced algorithms by ORSoC are applied.
This is at current bitcoin value of about 120 usd.

Are you factoring electricity costs into that? My sums suggest longer.....

[keyzersoze]

Well, I dont have any actual specific datapoints i could refer you to. it just basic head aritmathics, and gut feeling.
like you said, considering all the known players, adding in some unknown just for spookyness   and being just a tad bit more conservative than you. I arrive at almost the same figures.
But hey even based on this, you should break even on a Jupiter in about 2 months, and make around 30k in the first year. Thats with a profitabilty decline of about 0,5 per year, and not counting the 30% extra hashrate once the advanced algorithms by ORSoC are applied.
This is at current bitcoin value of about 120 usd.

Are you factoring electricity costs into that? My sums suggest longer.....

Yeah, but i have cheap electricity. Fixed rate of about 0.07 dollars at my home. Or free for a few years at least,  at a collegues office. If I Choose to host them there. Couldnt get into the 1-500, caught a break on my electricity expenses instead

[Bitcoinorama]

bitcoin value should swoon in the next 6 months unless the marketplace swells to make it better to spend the bitcoins instead of exchange them out to recover ROI in cash

also with bigger players getting bigger you could have more concentrated selling that can blow out weak bidding

if you don't think you can compete with miners, then sell things to them in btc.   

+1 the biggest opportunity in Bitcoin is still putting the effort into creating a product or service that apple tips Bitcoins for payment. That takes creativity and effort, the first mover advantage still exists here though, due to lack of competition...

[LoweryCBS]

if you don't think you can compete with miners, then sell things to them in btc.   

Quoted for awesomeness.

[Bitcoinorama]

10 Jupiters fully paid for.

All in on black

Ouch! Bank transfer?! Hope you know what you're doing...!

[bitpop]

I'm all in on red

[Bitcoinorama]

I'm all in on red

Well I hope that's not 'debt' being metaphorically typed.

Neither that or payment by bank transfer are particularly bright...

[bitpop]

Investment requires credit. I took a loan to buy a variety of asics. I'll either swim in Bitcoin or file bankruptcy.