Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Temp_JayJuanGee]

...
unless the authority seems to be abundantly clear that I have to count every cashing out as a gain, even though I bought back more than I sold.  Sounds like made up nonsense
...

i think your right...
you only incur capital gains tax if you have MOFO capital gains!
buying and selling, and sending money to and from your bank account, is not subject to taxation.
what i did one year when i was trading more heavily and doing some arbitrage, is i outlined all the cash in and outs to and from my bank, add up all the in's and the out's subtracted the totals and this gave me my capital gains for the year.
 
i've since given up that practice in favor of simply forever holding BTC  

You are saying something that kind of supports my inclinations,  yet on the other hand, we cannot really wish away the potential that there are actual gains "on paper" that end up being folded back into bitcoin.

Accordingly, let's say for example I bought and sold $100k of BTC over the course of the year for an average price of $500 (that is from coins more than a year old) and sold them for an average price of $700.  That would be 133.3 BTC sold and $26,666 of gain (on paper) ($200 x 133.3). 

That's also why I was suggesting, in one of my earlier posts, that if the amount of BTC traded were of a fiat value of less than $10k, then maybe it would not matter as much if you failed to report $2,666 in gains (on paper) versus $26,666 in gains (on paper)?

  Currently, my trading numbers for 2016 seem to be somewhere between these two (more than $10k but less than $100k), but if BTC prices appreciate more, we could imagine scenarios in which the gains on paper numbers become a lot larger, too.

If I traded all of those BTC on one exchange, then I would have never been considered to have realized any of the gain, but as soon as I cashed them out to my bank and then move them to another exchange, then I would have been considered to realize a gain (from the cashing out). 

On one exchange versus between exchanges kind of seems like a distinction without a difference (except maybe  it becomes more of a policing issue for the IRS to be able to verify what you are doing versus if they were to allow arbitraging).

For tax purposes, if I have "on paper" $26,666 in capital gains income, then that would be $4k in taxes for money that I never had used in any kind of way because I reinvested it within a substantially short period of time.

[Killerpotleaf]

...
unless the authority seems to be abundantly clear that I have to count every cashing out as a gain, even though I bought back more than I sold.  Sounds like made up nonsense
...

i think your right...
you only incur capital gains tax if you have MOFO capital gains!
buying and selling, and sending money to and from your bank account, is not subject to taxation.
what i did one year when i was trading more heavily and doing some arbitrage, is i outlined all the cash in and outs to and from my bank, add up all the in's and the out's subtracted the totals and this gave me my capital gains for the year.
 
i've since given up that practice in favor of simply forever holding BTC  

You are saying something that kind of supports my inclinations,  yet on the other hand, we cannot really wish away the potential that there are actual gains "on paper" that end up being folded back into bitcoin.

Accordingly, let's say for example I bought and sold $100k of BTC over the course of the year for an average price of $500 (that is from coins more than a year old) and sold them for an average price of $700.  That would be 133.3 BTC sold and $26,666 of gain (on paper) ($200 x 133.3).  

That's also why I was suggesting, in one of my earlier posts, that if the amount of BTC traded were of a fiat value of less than $10k, then maybe it would not matter as much if you failed to report $2,666 in gains (on paper) versus $26,666 in gains (on paper)?

  Currently, my trading numbers for 2016 seem to be somewhere between these two (more than $10k but less than $100k), but if BTC prices appreciate more, we could imagine scenarios in which the gains on paper numbers become a lot larger, too.

If I traded all of those BTC on one exchange, then I would have never been considered to have realized any of the gain, but as soon as I cashed them out to my bank and then move them to another exchange, then I would have been considered to realize a gain (from the cashing out).  

On one exchange versus between exchanges kind of seems like a distinction without a difference (except maybe  it becomes more of a policing issue for the IRS to be able to verify what you are doing versus if they were to allow arbitraging).

For tax purposes, if I have "on paper" $26,666 in capital gains income, then that would be $4k in taxes for money that I never had used in any kind of way because I reinvested it within a substantially short period of time.

you'd really need to consult an accountant...

it could be every time you press the F'ing sell button ( never mind cashing to your bank ) capital gains tax may apply.

but i would assume the rules are profoundly complex and if you simply declare part of your income as coming from "hobbyist trading" your off the hook for some it(untill you actually "cash out for real"). or some loop hole like that...

[Killerpotleaf]

i think the moral of the story here is, dont press the sell button!! 

[iikun]

I think the best move here would be to troll the IRS first to test the waters. Create some losses trading BTC and then try to offset other income using those losses. If they accept it, lesson learned and you know their approach for the future. If they reject it then it is clear they cannot tax it either (quid pro quo). You'd want to ensure perfect separation of your current activities though, I'm assuming you've made a clear trading profit for the year.

[sirazimuth]

we need a new rocket meme thats never been posted. damned if i can find one...

[TERA]

What if you're trade altcoins against btc but never sell the btc. Do you pay taxes even if you haven't sold,  and how do you base the value of the btc.

[Ted E. Bare]

That is completely dependent on where you live. For example where I'm located I have to pay taxes over my total combined savings at the end of the year, cryptocurrencies included, but trades are in no way taxed. Very straightforward.

[buwaytress]

my quantity of BTC bought remains 1 to 2%, or even a bit more, greater than the amount sold. 

You sound American? That's not the way it works. The selling of an asset is a taxable event. You figure out your net profit or loss based upon the price you paid for the assets sold. At the time of the taxable event. You don't get to figure out net based upon what it takes to replace that asset in the future. Sure, there are accounting details such as LIFO or FIFO and whatnot, but the fundamental calculus is what it is.

IANAL, etc.

What if bitcoin is seen by a government not as an asset or property but merely currency? Or does it not matter as it is "sold". I know in places currency exchange is only levied a service tax.

[Killerpotleaf]

A donation of securities to a registered charity or private foundation does not trigger a capital gain.

[Killerpotleaf]

If you sell an asset for a capital gain but do not expect to receive the money right away, you may be able to claim a reserve or defer the capital gain until a later time.

Day traders make a living buying and selling stocks, and because it's their job, capital gains taxation may not apply.

A day trader is a person who makes his living buying, selling and managing these transactions. A person who works in the investment industry and makes frequent short-term investment turnovers, such as a stockbroker, for example, may be considered a day trader as well.

its different everywhere... poeple really need to talk to an accountant, and or consider secretly HODLing like a mofo till the end of time

[Holliday]

What if you're trade altcoins against btc but never sell the btc. Do you pay taxes even if you haven't sold,  and how do you base the value of the btc.

Trading one asset for another is a taxable event.

[Elwar]

I think most of us who have been in Bitcoin for several years will be deciding between doing our accounting First In First Out (FIFO) or Last In First Out (LIFO). You have to consider that the capital gains for short term gains is 10 to 20 percent higher than for long term gains (over a year). But the bitcoin price this year and in previous years has gone up so much that such a difference is not enough (for example, I started buying at $20 so I would not choose FIFO because my gains would be over 1000% on my initial coins).

For me, I don't think I have ever sold bitcoins (on Coinbase) for fiat. I usually spend it. So I would choose LIFO because I have my money converted to bitcoins for each paycheck. So the gains in any given 2 week period are minimal, over the course of the year when one week may be down, one may be up it will add up to a very small amount.

In the future if I were to want to cash out a large portion of my bitcoins or spend a large amount I would probably structure my holdings via some sort of Caymen Islands type of thing as opposed to paying the capital gains on thousands of percent in gains.

This is usually where people say "consult an attorney" or whatever. Fuck that, you have the Internet and you probably know a lot more about Bitcoin than those assholes. Do your own research and you'll find the best way forward.

[jbreher]

What if you're trade altcoins against btc but never sell the btc. Do you pay taxes even if you haven't sold,  

No. The taxable event is the selling of some asset for governmentally-recognized money - such as USD.

and how do you base the value of the btc.

You have to track the value of each trade, allocating the percentage of source value to trade value, tracing the eventual sale back to the original purchase price.

Again, IANAL, nor a CPA...

[edgar]

we need a new rocket meme thats never been posted. damned if i can find one...

?

[Ted E. Bare]

What if you're trade altcoins against btc but never sell the btc. Do you pay taxes even if you haven't sold,  and how do you base the value of the btc.

Trading one asset for another is a taxable event.

Not over here (Netherlands).

[yefi]

What if you're trade altcoins against btc but never sell the btc. Do you pay taxes even if you haven't sold,  

No. The taxable event is the selling of some asset for governmentally-recognized money - such as USD.

I don't believe that is the case. If it were, people would bypass fiat to avoid taxation - maybe via precious metals, gemstones, vouchers, etc. A tax authority would be unlikely to condone such a loophole.

[Meuh6879]

seller need to avoid VAT when they want avoid IRS (taxes).
and so ... they don't sell stock ... ?

[Karartma1]

I see a slight correlation between these two charts, taken from Bitstamp 1wk with KDJ indicator. The main difference I see is volume, StochRSI indicates to me an overbought scenario, still could go higher though.

Good find PoolMinor, you surely deserve to be quoted for reference. I'm seeing that very same pattern.
Some more big buys filled and we'll go beyond $800.

Many people are saying that the next price trigger (for the good or the bad) could be the upcoming Italian Constitutional Referendum. We shall see

[savetherainforest]

I think most of us who have been in Bitcoin for several years will be deciding between doing our accounting First In First Out (FIFO) or Last In First Out (LIFO). You have to consider that the capital gains for short term gains is 10 to 20 percent higher than for long term gains (over a year). But the bitcoin price this year and in previous years has gone up so much that such a difference is not enough (for example, I started buying at $20 so I would not choose FIFO because my gains would be over 1000% on my initial coins).

For me, I don't think I have ever sold bitcoins (on Coinbase) for fiat. I usually spend it. So I would choose LIFO because I have my money converted to bitcoins for each paycheck. So the gains in any given 2 week period are minimal, over the course of the year when one week may be down, one may be up it will add up to a very small amount.

In the future if I were to want to cash out a large portion of my bitcoins or spend a large amount I would probably structure my holdings via some sort of Caymen Islands type of thing as opposed to paying the capital gains on thousands of percent in gains.

This is usually where people say "consult an attorney" or whatever. Fuck that, you have the Internet and you probably know a lot more about Bitcoin than those assholes. Do your own research and you'll find the best way forward.

Look in to my eyes and I will tell you the future!




Oh boy... Here we go!... Well... Elwar... the thing is like this and I'm sorry I need to break it to you! In the future the concept of tax will be not sustainable. Meaning there will be no taxes. Because I have a lot of time on my hands and I meditated for some time about this... And I see there are social problems with pensions, healthcare, the public school system... etc... So... Listen to me! ... There will be no taxes... soon.

The thing is that most of you are sheeple (maybe not the people on this forum... at least most of them) ... The problem of your concept is that you don't need to pay taxes! ... Because that's what they want you to believe! Just to feed their corrupt and decaying system!



You see those sheep?? .. They just need a big bad wolf on their side to start running sideways in that high snow. Just like all you tax paying motherF&#@ers... ... U feeling me??  

And I'm not talking only to you.. but with all those who read this right now... And for example you should stop giving your monthly pension contribution in some "private fun"-d ... But instead you should bootstrap or do some mattress bulking with some of the money (in some solid long term self owned investments like: bitcoin, gold, silver... dunno diversify your portfolio) that u keep donating in those fake/illusion pension funds. Their socialism bullsh!t won't last 4ever!

Because in the future if you need something... You will pay for it from your own pocket! And there will not be any socialist insurance to bail you with your health, your car or other goods that you might own!
You should just cut off the middleman! Because he kinda just enslaved the world.

[Meuh6879]

Weak Hands ... always enjoy the party at the end.