Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Torque]

Which is why it's all the more important to identify tokens that function as equity in a company with realistic and reaonable future prospects. The (overall) altcoin market is pretty insane for sure though. There are still people who believe in BCC apparently.

Have you ever seen an ICO company that says "There will only ever be [X] number of these ICO tokens issued. Each one represents a VALID and LEGALLY DEFENSIBLE equity ownership share of the company."

I haven't.

No, I haven't either. But equity hasn't always been regulated either. Regulation adapts to reality, not the other way around. Again, altcoins are extremely risky and require a lot of time and know-how to even have a chance of making profits without losing it down the road. But that doesn't mean that they're all bad.

Stocks carry very similar risks as well, despite being regulated. The lack of regulation is simultaneously a threat as well as an opportunity. It depends on the individual which aspect will outweigh the other.

Even if one of these ICO companies actually makes it and starts making money (which I highly doubt), the tokens as equity would be meaningless. There is likely no chance they would honor that. And even if they did honor it (which they are not legally obligated to), expect MASSIVE dillution.

Remember that one scene near the end of the movie 'The Social Network', where Eduardo gets massively diluted out of his majority stake in Facebook? Yeah, it would be something like that but worse. "Each ICO token is now worth 1/1 millionth of an equity share of this company." And no amount of lawyering-up would save you.

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

I haven't watched that movie, no. Is it worth the time?


And when I say "equity" it's not exactly in the way that normal equity functions (due to regulations). There are a number of different models which distribute the generated revenue to token holders in one way or another. In some cases you have to become active, in others the tokens are required to satisfy certain functions of the product or platform.

As far as token caps are concerned, I know for fact that the Waves platform gives the choice of whether or not tokens are re-issuable or not, which is a piece of information that is available to the public. Given a decentralized platform that functions with those tokens, just printing extra tokens would thus not be possible. The total supply and how the token functions in the proposed company/product/platform is a critical factor though.

And while I expect well above 90% of crypto companies dying, I do expect at least a dozen or so (~1%) to remain with one or two even becoming major global players in the 2020s. Who knows which those will be though.

[Globb0]

that's exactly how i present crypto to people, as a lottery with benefits. Nothing more, nothing retardly idealistic, just plain stupid speculation.

I like it.

And the downside is 1x but the upside is Xx

[Torque]

I haven't watched that movie, no. Is it worth the time?

Yes, very good movie. Performances all around are fantastic.

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

I haven't watched that movie, no. Is it worth the time?

Yes, very good movie. Performances all around fantastic.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[thrax]

Off to bundle-up, hop on a horse, and start makin' muh way around the snowy countryside, lookin' out for them coyotes.

So are we going to break through $12k today or what ?

It was above $12k three hours ago, it will probably keep fluctuating above and below it for the rest of today. Bitcoin's probably going to be boring this weekend.

[Torque]

Look at the price on 12/4. Then look at the massive volume pump starting on 12/5.

Then look again at the price where we are today. Pretty much the same as what it was on 12/4.

It makes complete sense the price is sitting where we are right now. The whale(s) responsible for the entire Dec/Jan PnD is out.

[jojo69]

My views on alts have been evolving.

Just last night my SO ran across some rumor about Amazon adopting BTC and asked me about it.  I had to reply that Bitcoin was not a good fit for retail at this time.

Absent LN, and we have to admit, it has been rather a long time coming, AND raises legitimate concerns about trust and decentralization, one coin can not be all things to all people.

Bitcoin is very secure and decentralized, while being slow, expensive and annoying.  I am good with that.  I like it that way, but I have had to admit that this does open market space for a solution that makes different compromises that favor speed and low fees.

Of course, if they were to bust out LN tomorrow and it was everything people hope that would change things, but there is a finite window of opportunity for that to happen.

[Torque]

Bitcoin is very secure and decentralized, while being slow, expensive and annoying.  I am good with that.  I like it that way, but I have had to admit that this does open market space for a solution that makes different compromises that favor speed and low fees.

You're missing one thing though. If Amazon isn't integrating Bitcoin payments now, then they sure as hell aren't going to do it for an altcoin. Speed and low fees alone isn't the deciding factor. Because if it was, Amazon would have jumped on Bitcoin integration all the way back in 2012 or 2013 when fees were lower.

The reason is political. Major banks through Visa, MC, and PayPal have exclusive contractual obligations with major merchants, and they can change the terms of deals or even make it politically 'difficult' for Amazon to integrate what they perceive as a 'competitor' payment system.

It's also substantial marketcap size and stability, and extremely low volatility. No crypto has achieved these things yet.

[jojo69]

The Amazon rumor was just the catalyst for the conversation, the point remains that BTC is not, at this time, a good fit for retail.


As far as the big A goes, I would be quite surprised if "Amazoncoin" were not in development.

[yefi]

Just to let folk know, as I haven't spotted this mentioned, you can claim another shitcoin today: BCX. It's going for around 3.5% per BTC on gate.io currently. Dumped all mine. Instructions for sending the coins to exchange can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinAirdrops/comments/7rfo5c/how_to_claim_your_bcx/

[Torque]

The Amazon rumor was just the catalyst for the conversation, the point remains that BTC is not, at this time, a good fit for retail.

As far as the big A goes, I would be quite surprised if "Amazoncoin" were not in development.

Agree.

Although you can buy pretty much whatever you want from Overstock.com with crypto. Even with BCash and Litecoin. It's not an Amazon, but they have enough wide selection of goods for the average person. I wouldn't be surprised if/when Overstock.com integrates their own Lightning Network.

[jojo69]

re Overstock

I have, thus far, failed to be impressed by their prices.

And, having grown up in the inter-mountain West, I have a strong disdain for the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints...so yeah, no.

[thrax]

Just to let folk know, as I haven't spotted this mentioned, you can claim another shitcoin today: BCX. It's going for around 3.5% per BTC on gate.io currently. Dumped all mine. Instructions for sending the coins to exchange can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinAirdrops/comments/7rfo5c/how_to_claim_your_bcx/

These free shitcoins are brilliant for topping up your bitcoin stash.

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

re Overstock

I have, thus far, failed to be impressed by their prices.

And, having grown up in the inter-mountain West, I have a strong disdain for the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints...so yeah, no.

Bitpanda works quite well for Amazon, at least in Europe. And it's much quicker than going through fiat directly, although granted they do charge quite a margin if I recall correctly.

Seconding the Amazoncoin sentiment by the way, Bezos is usually on top of the game with these kinds of developments. Perhaps he'll just end up acquiring Bitpay or something like that though.

[RoomBot]

This ad is still running


( https://i.imgur.com/YsRfFG0.png )

Very promissing indeed... (instead of promising)... meaning your bitcoins will be missing after all is said and done...

Seeeeeee???

They DO pay out!!!!! 




for advertising.

Now back to our regularly scheduled Moon shot.

BTC

[Karartma1]

Why don't you guys have an adblocker in the first place?
Anyway, I found an interesting comment on twitter from Garrick Hileman
https://twitter.com/GarrickHileman/status/954086068827185158
One underreported aspect of why South Korean authorities are cracking down on cryptocurrency trading: loss of job motivation when you see your peers making 10-100x speculating on cryptocurrencies over what you make at your day job.
 

[BTCMILLIONAIRE]

Motivation or not, there won't really be anywhere close to enough jobs to go around in the future. So I'd worry about AI and automation rather than temporally limited investment opportunities.

[JayJuanGee]

My views on alts have been evolving.

Just last night my SO ran across some rumor about Amazon adopting BTC and asked me about it.  I had to reply that Bitcoin was not a good fit for retail at this time.

Absent LN, and we have to admit, it has been rather a long time coming, AND raises legitimate concerns about trust and decentralization, one coin can not be all things to all people.

Bitcoin is very secure and decentralized, while being slow, expensive and annoying.  I am good with that.  I like it that way, but I have had to admit that this does open market space for a solution that makes different compromises that favor speed and low fees.

Of course, if they were to bust out LN tomorrow and it was everything people hope that would change things, but there is a finite window of opportunity for that to happen.

So what?

You are coming off with some BIG blocker talking points and trying to suggest that bitcoin has value only if it can be used for retail right now?

There is no artificial narrow window opportunity that you assert.  With the passage of time bitcoin is going to grow and grow and grow, so who gives a ratt's ass about if you can buy coffee with it today at this particular moment?

You can quote me in posterity if you like, but I would be a bit surprised if in 5 years buying coffee would be impractical with bitcoin or some affiliated means - but even if bitcoin remains impractical for buying coffee in 5 years, so fucking what?  I believe that bitcoin still has decent odds of being at least 50% more valuable than today, and also likely the dominant crypto... if it is NOT then, I will likely also have moved over to that other bitcoin killer crypto that took its place. 

TLDR: I doubt that investing in bitcoin is betting on the wrong horse, even if bitcoin is currently not practical at this time to use to buy coffee or other small retail.

[jojo69]

So what?

You are coming off with some BIG blocker talking points and trying to suggest that bitcoin has value only if it can be used for retail right now?

I said nothing of the sort

There is no artificial narrow window opportunity that you assert.

That is a matter of opinion.  I fully understand that the LN devs need to take their time and absolutely get this right, but the longer it takes the more opportunity there is for an alt to seize the, currently unserved, retail use case.

With the passage of time bitcoin is going to grow and grow and grow, so who gives a ratt's ass about if you can buy coffee with it today at this particular moment?

Certainly not me, and I have stated as much on a number of occasions.  As I said above, I support cores choices to prioritize security and decentralization at the expense of speed and thrift.

You can quote me in posterity if you like, but I would be a bit surprised if in 5 years buying coffee would be impractical with bitcoin or some affiliated means - but even if bitcoin remains impractical for buying coffee in 5 years, so fucking what?  I believe that bitcoin still has decent odds of being at least 50% more valuable than today, and also likely the dominant crypto... if it is NOT then, I will likely also have moved over to that other bitcoin killer crypto that took its place.  

TLDR: I doubt that investing in bitcoin is betting on the wrong horse, even if bitcoin is currently not practical at this time to use to buy coffee or other small retail.

I agree with all this and am in full agreement with holding the line on BTCs store of value use case.  That said, the retail use case WILL be served, and soon, if not by LN then by a well engineered alt with a strong dev team.  As time drags on I will be keeping my eye out for that.