Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[aminorex]

don't use mob tactics to force someone to follow your rules. All trade should be as free from 3rd party pressure.

wonderful polysemy there.  by mob tactics do you mean to refer to la cosa nostra, or to market forces?

i'm finding it difficult to extract any argument against a certification program from your text, although one seems intended.  perhaps you could clarify.

[aminorex]

By when are we gonna make a new all time high?  Maybe by June-ish?   

I will be disappointed if there are no fireworks for Dominion Day, Independence Day, or Bastille Day.

[kkaspar]

you should check out the cult of fiat banksterism ... it works really well for the high priest wannabees like yourself i heard

Fiat structure is supported by modern economics that have been developed by academics throughout hundreds of years.
This "banksterism" that you see, is another animal altogether. This has been caused by the growing corruption of the public sector. This has been the cause why the banking sector is over-privileged, and that is why all the anger towards banks from the working class.
Public sector should control banks and see to it, that they fall under basic capitalism rules like fair competition. But when societies leaders are a pack of unethical and weak spirited "felines", then banking leaders don't have to practice responsibility.

People with little knowledge about finance tend to blame modern economics when thinking of the latest financial problems. But it's not the economics, but it's the rape of economics by certain people who have a lot of power and very little responsibility.
And who is the best supporter of this "banksterism" ?
Probably you.. or your neighbor, or members of your family. By always taking the public sector for granted and voting for someone "because I see him a lot on TV". People don't actually learn in depth the skills, experience, plans and visions of the electee that he/she votes for.
And that is how incompetent and weak spirited politicians come to be the leaders of the public sector, and that is why banking hasn't been balanced.

Apathy is a defect that has affected a large part of the population. I don't know if it's the speed of our environmental changes or hormonal problems, but people seem to be affected by it with increasing rate. For instance, in this forum, I only found couple of people who were willing to act and do something to root out the corruption in the bitcoin market system. Most even got angry at me for trying to do something. Most seemed to hope that if everyone does nothing, then things will get fixed by itself.
This part is not much different between "banksterism" and "bitcoiners". Both want to be rich and powerful without having any responsibility, or if possible, without doing anything other then enjoying luxury.

So, don't blame the modern economics and don't try to act like bitcoin economics would actually be better. The proof-of-work fixed coin creation system is a joke compared to modern finance. We are living in a globalized world and it would be absurd that this world could run trade with this simplistic system.
But there can be a system that is as complex or more as modern finance, and that would be mainly automated and transparent. That system will be the "coin" that I'm really interested in!
I like bitcoin because it brought forward a big step in moving towards this idea. I have always dis-liked religious fanatics though and I tend to fall into conflict with them.

[Mythul]

There is so much manipulation on this forum. I don't get it why perma-bears even spend time here since they better just sell now at the never to be reached again peak and laugh at us when Bitcoin goes to $0.

[JayJuanGee]

There is so much manipulation on this forum. I don't get it why perma-bears even spend time here since they better just sell now at the never to be reached again peak and laugh at us when Bitcoin goes to $0.

Maybe they have been hired by banks or governments to sabotage crypto currencies or to interfere with our abilities to effectively communicate about such?

[p4n]

Gox thing smells badly everyday... It seems they have neither money or BTC enough to pay their customers. So they manipulate their exchange 1s and 0s to keep low prices to make people think "CHEAP COINS!!!" and send money to the exchange, which will be used to pay the ones who want to leave that sinking boat. Ponzi scheme with GoxUSD and GoxBTC.

Hope they don't make anyone sink with them.

[hmmmstrange]

I agree with the result but not with the path to get there. I would prefer to trade with the exchange that is the most transparent as i'm sure the majority would agree.

The problem I have is with standards based on coercion. Creating a body of power to force businesses to follow certain rules, stymies businesses to improve on the standards and eventually results in businesses  becoming mediocre and complacent and no longer compete. The free market will naturally favor the best.

I was thinking of an international society with no other power than to write standards and grant "seals of approval" to exchanges that want to get them.   There are many examples, like ISO, CIE,  ANSI, W3C, NERC, ... 

Some governments may make their standards mandatory or even delegate their enforcement to them (e.g. NERC in the US) , but the origanizations themselves are non-governamental.

All standards do is promote complacency. Any quality standard just adds a false sense of security and encourages both parties to not do their due diligence. We dont need to dumb down society any more.

"seals of approvals" are just a means to create a barrier of entry to new businesses.

As for standards for the bitcoin protocol changes, we already have the 50% majority rules built in to bitcoin.

[JayJuanGee]

Gox thing smells badly everyday... It seems they have neither money or BTC enough to pay their customers. So they manipulate their exchange 1s and 0s to keep low prices to make people think "CHEAP COINS!!!" and send money to the exchange, which will be used to pay the ones who want to leave that sinking boat. Ponzi scheme with GoxUSD and GoxBTC.

Hope they don't make anyone sink with them.

I agree with you that the more time that passes, the more fishy the whole situation smells; however, I do NOT know how you can come to so many conclusions about the Ponzi scheme accusation.  It sounds as if you are just throwing out labels.. without really knowing many facts about how Gox may be dealing with this internally or about the internal financial status of Gox.    There was a coindesk article earlier today about Gox.. did you see it?


I'm thinking about this one:  http://www.coindesk.com/mt-gox-may-headed-bankruptcy/

Even though some people think that there are a lot of conspiracies to pull down Gox... I personally thought that the article made a lot of good points about the pattern of Gox's behavior.... .. Though of course none of this is conclusive and it is speculation, as well.

[windjc]

you should check out the cult of fiat banksterism ... it works really well for the high priest wannabees like yourself i heard

Fiat structure is supported by modern economics that have been developed by academics throughout hundreds of years.
This "banksterism" that you see, is another animal altogether. This has been caused by the growing corruption of the public sector. This has been the cause why the banking sector is over-privileged, and that is why all the anger towards banks from the working class.
Public sector should control banks and see to it, that they fall under basic capitalism rules like fair competition. But when societies leaders are a pack of unethical and weak spirited "felines", then banking leaders don't have to practice responsibility.

People with little knowledge about finance tend to blame modern economics when thinking of the latest financial problems. But it's not the economics, but it's the rape of economics by certain people who have a lot of power and very little responsibility.
And who is the best supporter of this "banksterism" ?
Probably you.. or your neighbor, or members of your family. By always taking the public sector for granted and voting for someone "because I see him a lot on TV". People don't actually learn in depth the skills, experience, plans and visions of the electee that he/she votes for.
And that is how incompetent and weak spirited politicians come to be the leaders of the public sector, and that is why banking hasn't been balanced.

Apathy is a defect that has affected a large part of the population. I don't know if it's the speed of our environmental changes or hormonal problems, but people seem to be affected by it with increasing rate. For instance, in this forum, I only found couple of people who were willing to act and do something to root out the corruption in the bitcoin market system. Most even got angry at me for trying to do something. Most seemed to hope that if everyone does nothing, then things will get fixed by itself.
This part is not much different between "banksterism" and "bitcoiners". Both want to be rich and powerful without having any responsibility, or if possible, without doing anything other then enjoying luxury.

So, don't blame the modern economics and don't try to act like bitcoin economics would actually be better. The proof-of-work fixed coin creation system is a joke compared to modern finance. We are living in a globalized world and it would be absurd that this world could run trade with this simplistic system.
But there can be a system that is as complex or more as modern finance, and that would be mainly automated and transparent. That system will be the "coin" that I'm really interested in!
I like bitcoin because it brought forward a big step in moving towards this idea. I have always dis-liked religious fanatics though and I tend to fall into conflict with them.

Ok. There may be another coin in the future. Probably so. But bitcoin isn't going anywhere. You have to realize that you have not given an original criticism of bitcoin to date. Everything you talk about we have heard literally hundreds of times. Hundreds. And your core criticisms are the same that others before you said at $1, $5, $10, $50, $100, and now $1000.  People said these things before there was an eco-system. Before hundreds of millions of private equity investments went into that eco-system. Before we had multiple exchanges. Before we had US government regulators interested in fostering guidelines for bitcoin development. Before we had institutional investment vehicles. And on and on and on. That is why when you say you got involved because of China, we laugh at you. If you wanted to get involved because you understood the promise of this protocol, then you would have looked at international remittance. You would have looked at 3rd world banking. You would have looked at legal contracts, etc. Instead you just chirp about currency, deflation, mining costs, volatility - the same shit we've heard from countless others in the past, and surely countless others in the future. You know what? -- all that shit was obvious before you got involved and started momentarily "to believe."  Nothing has changed. Yet, you think you have it all figured out and we don't have a clue.

Carry on.  

[droptable]

Like w3 standards have driven complacency in html and css?

 

[av123]

you should check out the cult of fiat banksterism ... it works really well for the high priest wannabees like yourself i heard

Fiat structure is supported by modern economics that have been developed by academics throughout hundreds of years.
This "banksterism" that you see, is another animal altogether. This has been caused by the growing corruption of the public sector. This has been the cause why the banking sector is over-privileged, and that is why all the anger towards banks from the working class.
Public sector should control banks and see to it, that they fall under basic capitalism rules like fair competition. But when societies leaders are a pack of unethical and weak spirited "felines", then banking leaders don't have to practice responsibility.

People with little knowledge about finance tend to blame modern economics when thinking of the latest financial problems. But it's not the economics, but it's the rape of economics by certain people who have a lot of power and very little responsibility.
And who is the best supporter of this "banksterism" ?
Probably you.. or your neighbor, or members of your family. By always taking the public sector for granted and voting for someone "because I see him a lot on TV". People don't actually learn in depth the skills, experience, plans and visions of the electee that he/she votes for.
And that is how incompetent and weak spirited politicians come to be the leaders of the public sector, and that is why banking hasn't been balanced.

Apathy is a defect that has affected a large part of the population. I don't know if it's the speed of our environmental changes or hormonal problems, but people seem to be affected by it with increasing rate. For instance, in this forum, I only found couple of people who were willing to act and do something to root out the corruption in the bitcoin market system. Most even got angry at me for trying to do something. Most seemed to hope that if everyone does nothing, then things will get fixed by itself.
This part is not much different between "banksterism" and "bitcoiners". Both want to be rich and powerful without having any responsibility, or if possible, without doing anything other then enjoying luxury.

So, don't blame the modern economics and don't try to act like bitcoin economics would actually be better. The proof-of-work fixed coin creation system is a joke compared to modern finance. We are living in a globalized world and it would be absurd that this world could run trade with this simplistic system.
But there can be a system that is as complex or more as modern finance, and that would be mainly automated and transparent. That system will be the "coin" that I'm really interested in!
I like bitcoin because it brought forward a big step in moving towards this idea. I have always dis-liked religious fanatics though and I tend to fall into conflict with them.

Ok. There may be another coin in the future. Probably so. But bitcoin isn't going anywhere. You have to realize that you have not given an original criticism of bitcoin to date. Everything you talk about we have heard literally hundreds of times. Hundreds. And your core criticisms are the same that others before you said at $1, $5, $10, $50, $100, and now $1000.  People said these things before there was an eco-system. Before hundreds of millions of private equity investments went into that eco-system. Before we had multiple exchanges. Before we had US government regulators interested in fostering guidelines for bitcoin development. Before we had institutional investment vehicles. And on and on and on. That is why when you say you got involved because of China, we laugh at you. If you wanted to get involved because you understood the promise of this protocol, then you would have looked at international remittance. You would have looked at 3rd world banking. You would have looked at legal contracts, etc. Instead you just chirp about currency, deflation, mining costs, volatility - the same shit we've heard from countless others in the past, and surely countless others in the future. You know what? -- all that shit was obvious before you got involved and started momentarily "to believe."  Nothing has changed. Yet, you think you have it all figured out and we don't have a clue.

Carry on.  

These are good points. So long as the bitcoin network itself isn't compromised, I believe the protocol has a bright future and the eco-system will continue to grow. Enabling an easier way to send third world remittances will be one major driver IMO.

[JayJuanGee]

 Instead you just chirp about currency, deflation, mining costs, volatility - the same shit we've heard from countless others in the past, and surely countless others in the future.  

Windjc:

I know that I am catching you in the middle of another conversation; however, I frequently am having concerns about the deflationary aspects of bitcoin.  DONT get me wrong... I am bullish on bitcoin, but I remain quite concerned about its lack of expansion.... surely it is expanding at around 10-12% per year, and that will decrease.  Probably o.k. to have btc for a store of value.. but questionable as a currency with such lack of expansion of the supply.  

Personally, I recognize the near infinite divisibility but am more concerned about the ability for BTC to continue to adjust to the increased population, lost coins etc..

Surely, this may be a real long term problem, and NOT really as much of a problem in the short term, but NONETHELESS the problem concerns me.... b/c if there becomes a great demand, it could cause the value of BTC to increase way too much.. and way to exponentially...

[windjc]

 Instead you just chirp about currency, deflation, mining costs, volatility - the same shit we've heard from countless others in the past, and surely countless others in the future.  

Windjc:

I know that I am catching you in the middle of another conversation; however, I frequently am having concerns about the deflationary aspects of bitcoin.  DONT get me wrong... I am bullish on bitcoin, but I remain quite concerned about its lack of expansion.... surely it is expanding at around 10-12% per year, and that will decrease.  Probably o.k. to have btc for a store of value.. but questionable as a currency with such lack of expansion of the supply.  

Personally, I recognize the near infinite divisibility but am more concerned about the ability for BTC to continue to adjust to the increased population, lost coins etc..

Surely, this may be a real long term problem, and NOT really as much of a problem in the short term, but NONETHELESS the problem concerns me.... b/c if there becomes a great demand, it could cause the value of BTC to increase way too much.. and way to exponentially...

The technology world has lived in a state of price deflation for 20 years, yet Apple is the biggest company in the world.

Inflation doesn't work. Proven. I certainly do not see why we wouldn't give deflation a chance.

[31337157]

Ok. There may be another coin in the future. Probably so. But bitcoin isn't going anywhere. You have to realize that you have not given an original criticism of bitcoin to date. Everything you talk about we have heard literally hundreds of times. Hundreds. And your core criticisms are the same that others before you said at $1, $5, $10, $50, $100, and now $1000.  People said these things before there was an eco-system. Before hundreds of millions of private equity investments went into that eco-system. Before we had multiple exchanges. Before we had US government regulators interested in fostering guidelines for bitcoin development. Before we had institutional investment vehicles. And on and on and on. That is why when you say you got involved because of China, we laugh at you. If you wanted to get involved because you understood the promise of this protocol, then you would have looked at international remittance. You would have looked at 3rd world banking. You would have looked at legal contracts, etc. Instead you just chirp about currency, deflation, mining costs, volatility - the same shit we've heard from countless others in the past, and surely countless others in the future. You know what? -- all that shit was obvious before you got involved and started momentarily "to believe."  Nothing has changed. Yet, you think you have it all figured out and we don't have a clue.

Carry on.  

Ugh, thank you. So there are still some of us here. You hit it right on the head!

[JayJuanGee]

These are good points. So long as the bitcoin network itself isn't compromised, I believe the protocol has a bright future and the eco-system will continue to grow. Enabling an easier way to send third world remittances will be one major driver IMO.

I agree with you, and this seems likely to cause bitcoin to become a major threat to governments and various financial institutions that stand to lose a lot of money and control over various poor populations... and it remains my belief that both governments and financial institutions  like to keep the little guy down.

[kkaspar]

you should check out the cult of fiat banksterism ... it works really well for the high priest wannabees like yourself i heard

Fiat structure is supported by modern economics that have been developed by academics throughout hundreds of years.
This "banksterism" that you see, is another animal altogether. This has been caused by the growing corruption of the public sector. This has been the cause why the banking sector is over-privileged, and that is why all the anger towards banks from the working class.
Public sector should control banks and see to it, that they fall under basic capitalism rules like fair competition. But when societies leaders are a pack of unethical and weak spirited "felines", then banking leaders don't have to practice responsibility.

People with little knowledge about finance tend to blame modern economics when thinking of the latest financial problems. But it's not the economics, but it's the rape of economics by certain people who have a lot of power and very little responsibility.
And who is the best supporter of this "banksterism" ?
Probably you.. or your neighbor, or members of your family. By always taking the public sector for granted and voting for someone "because I see him a lot on TV". People don't actually learn in depth the skills, experience, plans and visions of the electee that he/she votes for.
And that is how incompetent and weak spirited politicians come to be the leaders of the public sector, and that is why banking hasn't been balanced.

Apathy is a defect that has affected a large part of the population. I don't know if it's the speed of our environmental changes or hormonal problems, but people seem to be affected by it with increasing rate. For instance, in this forum, I only found couple of people who were willing to act and do something to root out the corruption in the bitcoin market system. Most even got angry at me for trying to do something. Most seemed to hope that if everyone does nothing, then things will get fixed by itself.
This part is not much different between "banksterism" and "bitcoiners". Both want to be rich and powerful without having any responsibility, or if possible, without doing anything other then enjoying luxury.

So, don't blame the modern economics and don't try to act like bitcoin economics would actually be better. The proof-of-work fixed coin creation system is a joke compared to modern finance. We are living in a globalized world and it would be absurd that this world could run trade with this simplistic system.
But there can be a system that is as complex or more as modern finance, and that would be mainly automated and transparent. That system will be the "coin" that I'm really interested in!
I like bitcoin because it brought forward a big step in moving towards this idea. I have always dis-liked religious fanatics though and I tend to fall into conflict with them.

Ok. There may be another coin in the future. Probably so. But bitcoin isn't going anywhere. You have to realize that you have not given an original criticism of bitcoin to date. Everything you talk about we have heard literally hundreds of times. Hundreds. And your core criticisms are the same that others before you said at $1, $5, $10, $50, $100, and now $1000.  People said these things before there was an eco-system. Before hundreds of millions of private equity investments went into that eco-system. Before we had multiple exchanges. Before we had US government regulators interested in fostering guidelines for bitcoin development. Before we had institutional investment vehicles. And on and on and on. That is why when you say you got involved because of China, we laugh at you. If you wanted to get involved because you understood the promise of this protocol, then you would have looked at international remittance. You would have looked at 3rd world banking. You would have looked at legal contracts, etc. Instead you just chirp about currency, deflation, mining costs, volatility - the same shit we've heard from countless others in the past, and surely countless others in the future. You know what? -- all that shit was obvious before you got involved and started momentarily "to believe."  Nothing has changed. Yet, you think you have it all figured out and we don't have a clue.

Carry on.  

All those investments into the ecosystem has went to the idea of bitcoin, not bitcoin itself. All the support services can just jump coins and they are ready to do that. Their investments are not tied down to bitcoin, so the "eco-system" doesn't have to keep bitcoin alive. So no point in telling that bitcoin is secured by that ecosystem.
Well, the faults of bitcoin aren't very well hidden, so I know that people have seen the same flaws before. But I haven't found the solutions to those long known problems either. Solutions to those problems are still unanswered and everyone are just trying to ignore the problems.
Before the current development phase, these problems were the problems of the future, but now they are  problems of now, so you can't just ignore the problems any longer.

[Mythul]

The only thing that has changed, at least for now in the Bitcoin world is that you cannot double up / 10x in 1-3 months like before which in a way is a good thing.

The community here is so addictive and vibrant that 1 week in Bitcoin world seems like an eternity. And usually when people invest in a technology they don't do it for 1-3 months, but rather years.

Also it is a new technology and be grateful that you can invest in it. I don't know many cases where ordernary people could get in something completely new before the big pockets come.

I bet people said the same thing about the Internet, email, torrents, mobile phones etc.

To be honest if I lose I wouldn't be too bitter since you cannot uninvent the technology behind bitcoin which is a breakthrough and could be used in many other domains and will be used.

In a way this is the beginning of Web3.0 and sending bits that cannot be faked or disputed in a network as huge as the internet surely has a lot of billions in value.

[threecats]

New NYT article:

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/02/17/regulators-and-hackers-put-bitcoin-to-the-test/?hp

[JayJuanGee]

 Instead you just chirp about currency, deflation, mining costs, volatility - the same shit we've heard from countless others in the past, and surely countless others in the future.  

Windjc:

I know that I am catching you in the middle of another conversation; however, I frequently am having concerns about the deflationary aspects of bitcoin.  DONT get me wrong... I am bullish on bitcoin, but I remain quite concerned about its lack of expansion.... surely it is expanding at around 10-12% per year, and that will decrease.  Probably o.k. to have btc for a store of value.. but questionable as a currency with such lack of expansion of the supply.  

Personally, I recognize the near infinite divisibility but am more concerned about the ability for BTC to continue to adjust to the increased population, lost coins etc..

Surely, this may be a real long term problem, and NOT really as much of a problem in the short term, but NONETHELESS the problem concerns me.... b/c if there becomes a great demand, it could cause the value of BTC to increase way too much.. and way to exponentially...

The technology world has lived in a state of price deflation for 20 years, yet Apple is the biggest company in the world.

Inflation doesn't work. Proven. I certainly do not see why we wouldn't give deflation a chance.

Don't get me wrong.  Currently, I am NOT objecting to trying out BTC and to see how it plays out but currency deflation seems to be way too liberating to poor people in my current understanding of capitalism.  

Accordingly, capitalism works by exploiting people and creating an incentive for people to work.  For example, if any schmuck can get a bitcoin (or fraction of a bitcoin) when he is a baby (and then stashes it away), then he would never have to work a day in his life by the time he is 18 years old.  

Maybe I am being too narrow minded to think that way, but compounding interest is a powerful thing and if BTC is guaranteed to go up every year by even as little as 10-15% (and those are conservative numbers based on the supply issue and I would think that the guaranteed price increase would be greater than 15% annually).  BTC would change the whole dynamics of the world and incentives for labor......

Maybe there is a way to make this deflationary aspect of BTC work, but the whole deflationary concept puzzles me b/c it is a very different dynamic than the one that we are used to within the current scheme of things and incentive structures.  Rich people are NOT going to want poor people to have guaranteed avenues to become rich, so the more ingrained bitcoin becomes, the more the rich are going to want to fight to keep poor people from getting the advantages of it... that is part of the problem of the deflationary aspect, in my current thinking.

[CryptStorm]

Keyser/Bill,
You're a sensible sort.

What do you think of Jorge's proposal?

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/petition-to-remove-mark-karpeles-from-the-board-of-the-bitcoin-foundation

I don't think that the Bitcoin Foundation can or should be salvaged.  Since the other board members haven't given any sign that they are displeased with Mark's actions at MtGOX, one cannot assume that they are better than him. 

Besides, it is not clear whose interests the Foundation is supposed to represent: small investors, big investors, traders, exchange owners, developers, or people who just want bitcoin to be used for commerce?

Methinks that bitcoin owners should create an independent Bitcoin Investors Association, supported by fixed low fees and accepting no donations (so that it does not become a Bitcoin Whales Association).  Its first priority should be to write a set of standards for exchanges (including transparent accounting), audit them, and certify them for compliance.

I completely agree and had the same thought about a year ago.  I approached a few people via the trollbox (the ones who were clearly compos mentis although the trollbox wasn't as bad as it is now) and apart from one guy, who on consideration decided it was far too much work, everyone responded (politely) that this was not what BTC was about and it sounded like shudder regulation.  But why shouldn't the people that use BTC organise themselves and impose a set of standards (or regulations) which make the eco-system better?   

This is why I'm a rather cynical about the "bitcoin will change the world" angle - unless people get involved and take ownership BTC may well change the world, but not in the positive, egalitarian way they presume.   The reality most here just want to financially better themselves and live through some technological disruption, they don't want to get too involved.

BTW excuse my spelling I'm a bit crook today (that's Australian for sick).

I must say, this quite strikes me as wonderful. I have a number of private ramblings/notes that are slowly turning into ideas, dare say visions, along the same lines. Some are more grand, some less thoughtful, but the space is ripe for a huge number of contributions. I won't go further at this moment in my thoughts, now isn't the right space/time.

Perhaps a(nother!?) thread to discuss could be created? I really should look around a bit more, here, as there probably are a number of threads that might yield thoughtful repose along an the lines of a discussion for badly needed exchange guidelines/innovations.

As it is, I barely have time to half-ass my way across this thread, which while very *urgent* is heavily trolled (DON'T FEED).