Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Erdogan]

Any thoughts on what the recent decision from the IRS on ruling Bitcoin as property is going to do to the price now?

Some loser might find it reassuring, therefore marginally bullish, but really, no consequence for price.

[windjc]

Any thoughts on what the recent decision from the IRS on ruling Bitcoin as property is going to do to the price now?

Some loser might find it reassuring, therefore marginally bullish, but really, no consequence for price.

Some "loser" might find it reassuring?

I find it reassuring that my tax bracket will be 15-20% vs. 40%. Does that make me a loser?

[JayJuanGee]

IRS Says Bitcoin is Property, Not Currency
In a notice, the IRS said that it generally would treat Bitcoin held by investors much like stock or other intangible property. If the virtual currency is held for investment, any gains would be treated as capital gains, meaning they could be subject to lower tax rates.

http://stream.wsj.com/story/markets/SS-2-5/SS-2-490994/

Probably willful confusion on the govenment side, just like the central bank reports.

It is not a currency, because it is not a generally used medium of exchange, ok, but it is money.

It is not virtual, it is complete, full, real, tangible money.

The expression "virtual currency" should really not be used for bitcoin, cryptocurrency is better, but the best name is cryptomoney.

Seems better for Bitcoin, at least at the moment, to be defined as an asset rather than as a currency b/c otherwise, it seems that government officials could want to squelch it, if it were defined as a currency. 

Also, defining bitcoin as an asset does NOT seem to stop people from trading or otherwise using bitcoin as a payment system. Doesn't seem like a problem... and there is some benefit that comes with a definition, even though the definition may NOT be the end of the story..

[Erdogan]

Any thoughts on what the recent decision from the IRS on ruling Bitcoin as property is going to do to the price now?

Some loser might find it reassuring, therefore marginally bullish, but really, no consequence for price.

Some "loser" might find it reassuring?

I find it reassuring that my tax bracket will be 15-20% vs. 40%. Does that make me a loser?

I would rather not call you a loser, but... you don't have to tell them, these statements come in droves, often conflicting, and finally, the US is not the whole world.

EDIT: And I don't think you needed any reassurance, for the feasibility of bitcoins. So ok, a decision on lower tax could be reassuring for non-losers.

Edit 2: Anyway, no consequence for price, my opinion.

[ChrisML]

Shit.. it wants to break out so BAD!

When this dumper is out of coins.. coins will hit the fan. AND BEYOND!

Choo choo.

[bobdude17]

Regarding the IRS announcement-

Isn't this the clarification Wall Street needed to really make a legitimate move?

Edit : fuck it i'll start a thread

[JorgeStolfi]

People should only invest in Bitcoin for 1 of 2 reasons.
1) you understand these intellectuals position of how money functions and can directly relate it to Bitcoin.

I think I understand how money works.  I understand in particular that issuing new money transfers real wealth from the society that uses it (not just those individuals who own or use it) to  those who issue it (and "of course" keep some of it for themselves).

That is the reason why there are so many altcoins, by the way: everybody loves the idea of becoming filthy rich without working or having special skills.

And, as I wrote before, that is one of the reasons why I am very pessimistic about bitcoin's future.

You are overlooking Bitcoin as a " risk distribution virus"  it is a distributed socialized voluntary p2p wealth preservation system.

It will hardly "perserve wealth".  It will transfer a lot of wealth from some people to other people.  Who will be the winners and who will be the losers depends on whether it will succeed or fail. 

[Bitcoin] it isn't destructive it's like choosing to live in civilization as opposed to living like a self sufficient cave man under the control of the dinosaurs, once you try it the benefits are obvious.

Terrible analogy.  "Civilization" means government, taxes, laws, police, and, yes, banks.  Those inventions are basically good, although they can break down and get corrupted, and we must constantly struggle to try to keep them working as intended.

In contrast, the anarchic pipedream of an unregulated global economy without banks and outside the reach of governments, laws and police is not only impossible to succeed, but would be a barbaric nightmare if it did.  How many MtGOXes will have to pass before bitcoiners understand that?

Dinosaurs are on the verge of extinction and higher levels of consciousness is about to evolve in smaller mammals.

Dinosaurs did not become extinct, they are called "birds" now.  Considering that dinosaurs can fly faster, better, higher and longer than any mammal, one could argue that they just left the inferior parts of the environment to the inferior life forms. 

It is not clear yet what killed all the other non-flying dinosaurs, and why the ancestors of the mammals (which were smaller than mice, AFAIK) survived.  I am not aware of any evidence that they were more intelligent.  Perhaps it was a multi-year cold spell that killed the non-flying dinosaurs, and the pre-mammals survived only because they had better body temperature regulation (oops, sorry for the dirty word  ) and lived off insects which lived off fungi that lived off the corpses of the dinosaurs.  Or whatever.

[cbutters]

huobi 300 coins away from breaking all down triangle of doom trendlines from the peak...

[mmitech]

Rumor talking about an insider who confirms that Mtgox found a total of 670K BTC that was supposedly lost, I wonder how this will effect the price if it turns out to be true... http://theblogchain.com/news/mtgox-found-bitcoin/

[Erdogan]

IRS Says Bitcoin is Property, Not Currency
In a notice, the IRS said that it generally would treat Bitcoin held by investors much like stock or other intangible property. If the virtual currency is held for investment, any gains would be treated as capital gains, meaning they could be subject to lower tax rates.

http://stream.wsj.com/story/markets/SS-2-5/SS-2-490994/

Probably willful confusion on the govenment side, just like the central bank reports.

It is not a currency, because it is not a generally used medium of exchange, ok, but it is money.

It is not virtual, it is complete, full, real, tangible money.

The expression "virtual currency" should really not be used for bitcoin, cryptocurrency is better, but the best name is cryptomoney.

Seems better for Bitcoin, at least at the moment, to be defined as an asset rather than as a currency b/c otherwise, it seems that government officials could want to squelch it, if it were defined as a currency. 

Also, defining bitcoin as an asset does NOT seem to stop people from trading or otherwise using bitcoin as a payment system. Doesn't seem like a problem... and there is some benefit that comes with a definition, even though the definition may NOT be the end of the story..

Really, what is money, is what traders say is money.  So a trade consist of selling some good for money, which is the same as buying money and paying with that good. Sales tax is bad, but tax on buying or selling money is just absurd. Still, some governments tax buying gold, as if gold is not money. If gold is money, taxing the trading of it is also absurd.

Therefore, governments will not define bitcoin as money, at least they will defer it till it is obvious to everybody that it is money.

I wonder if the proposition that bitcoin is money, could be confirmed in some international court for human rights, probably not.

[JorgeStolfi]

Regarding the IRS announcement- Isn't this the clarification Wall Street needed to really make a legitimate move?

I doubt it.

That note is partly bad news (to some bitcoiners) because the IRS made it clear that all taxes apply to bitcoin transfers like they do to any other property transfer.  (I recall reading claims that payments in bitcoin, being invisible to governments, would be free from taxes.  The governments do not agree, of course.)

It is partly good news (to some bitcoiners) because the IRS recognizes that bitcoins, like cars and stock, are property and have value.  That note should help convince judges and cops who still may see bitcoins as "nothings".  The IRS view implies that stealing bitcoins or obtaining them through fraud are common crimes, that can be investigated by the police and can send people to jail.

That note does not imply, one way or the other, whether bitcoins are "solid" enough to satisfy the Securities and Exchanges Commision.  The US government is certainly much friendlier to bitcoin than most other countries, but even so I doubt that it will allow banks and the like to invest in bitcoin, or bitcoin-based funds to be traded at NYSE, any time soon.

[windjc]

Regarding the IRS announcement- Isn't this the clarification Wall Street needed to really make a legitimate move?

I doubt it.

That note is partly bad news (to some bitcoiners) because the IRS made it clear that all taxes apply to bitcoin transfers like they do to any other property transfer.  (I recall reading claims that payments in bitcoin, being invisible to governments, would be free from taxes.  The governments do not agree, of course.)

It is partly good news (to some bitcoiners) because the IRS recognizes that bitcoins, like cars and stock, are property and have value.  That note should help convince judges and cops who still may see bitcoins as "nothings".  The IRS view implies that stealing bitcoins or obtaining them through fraud are common crimes, that can be investigated by the police and can send people to jail.

That note does not imply, one way or the other, whether bitcoins are "solid" enough to satisfy the Securities and Exchanges Commision.  The US government is certainly much friendlier to bitcoin than most other countries, but even so I doubt that it will allow banks and the like to invest in bitcoin, or bitcoin-based funds to be traded at NYSE, any time soon.

Boy. If you are wrong, you're going to look really stupid.

[JorgeStolfi]

You think [Neo & Bee] stalled because they don't send an update to your inbox every morning. How important you are 

Because there seem to be no news about them after their opening and this reply to the central bank.  How important is the world is anyway? 

[ChrisML]

Rumor talking about an insider who confirms that Mtgox found a total of 670K BTC that was supposedly lost, I wonder how this will effect the price if it turns out to be true... http://theblogchain.com/news/mtgox-found-bitcoin/

The fuck is going on there? First it's all been stolen by hackers.

The whole world talks about hackers and bitcoins. That it's not safe etc etc.

And now, some "insider" speaks about finding a total of 670K BTC? Is this with or without the additional 200k BTC that has been found earlier on?

I am confused, that shitpile should have just burned. On the othernote. It's great fucking news for the people who lost so much, and I honestly hope that they will see some in return in the near future.

[cbutters]

Rumor talking about an insider who confirms that Mtgox found a total of 670K BTC that was supposedly lost, I wonder how this will effect the price if it turns out to be true... http://theblogchain.com/news/mtgox-found-bitcoin/

The fuck is going on there? First it's all been stolen by hackers.

The whole world talks about hackers and bitcoins. That it's not safe etc etc.

And now, some "insider" speaks about finding a total of 670K BTC? Is this with or without the additional 200k BTC that has been found earlier on?

I am confused, that shitpile should have just burned. On the othernote. It's great fucking news for the people who lost so much, and I honestly hope that they will see some in return in the near future.

nobody should trust that tweet.... its completely suspect.... the guy tweets everything in turkish language for his whole tweet history, then suddenly says that in english, he said something earlier about the 200,000 would be found... but that was after everyone figured it out already on reddit. Its just some dude looking to close his short.

[MAbtc]

Any predictions what will happen if this is true?
https://twitter.com/CanarslanEren/status/448418452701974528

If its true and assuming they refund people's bitcoins, then what will happen is that there will be a lot of happy people. Beyond that, not much will happen. A few people might sell some, but most people will hold. And overall community sentiment will be more positive. Probably not much difference in regards to price.

Yea sure! Goxxers who bought coins at 100-300 (huge volume happened in this range) will not sell for 500-600.
Rather they will sacrifice the 2x-6x profit to spare the anemic bid sum of $12 million: a typical perma-bull fantasy..

I am more than happy to make this bet with you: 5 BTC in escrow.

If Mtgox gives a 80%-100% refund in coins, the price of Bitcoin will not decrease on increased volume more than $100 less than the day of the refund within 2 weeks of the refund.

Lets not make it personal ego talk.
Why complicate things when I will make the bet with the market to buy lower!

That's fine. Its not about ego for me.

I just get so tired of hearing people constantly talk about how some "coinage" is going to be "dumped" on the market.

I have yet to see one real important example of this. EVER.

Yet, the same weaksauce FUD and paranoia continues to circulate over and over, the only thing changing is what "coinage" is supposedly going to be "dumped" today.

To be fair, this is just the flip side of the Gox coins being "removed" from the market. Most people around here made the case that this perception of decreased supply on the exchanges would inevitably cause a bull run. Now we potentially have a reversal of that situation. Will 100% get dumped? Of course not. Could 10% be dumped? That's conceivable -- why not? And 70,000 coins in a market where the vast majority are hoarded is nothing to sneeze at. I'm just playing with hypotheticals here.

[magicmexican]

LTC on the pump, i bet the guy who sold them @1CNY is mad

[Richy_T]

It is not clear yet what killed all the other non-flying dinosaurs, and why the ancestors of the mammals (which were smaller than mice, AFAIK) survived.  I am not aware of any evidence that they were more intelligent.  Perhaps it was a multi-year cold spell that killed the non-flying dinosaurs, and the pre-mammals survived only because they had better body temperature regulation (oops, sorry for the dirty word  ) and lived off insects which lived off fungi that lived off the corpses of the dinosaurs.  Or whatever.

How about air superiority? The flying dinosaurs killed and ate all the land-borne dinosaurs. Then, without food, they adapted to eat things birds eat (millet etc). Then the mammals moved into the space vacated by the land-based dinosaurs. By which logic, the flying dinosaurs, a proper food supply having returned, should be re-evolving and attacking us from the skies. Watch out.

[Stevenrm87]

LTC on the pump, i bet the guy who sold them @1CNY is mad

What ever happened with that? Was that a dump of stolen LTC or really somebody panicked that hard?

[Richy_T]

I think I understand how money works.  I understand in particular that issuing new money transfers real wealth from the society that uses it (not just those individuals who own or use it) to  those who issue it (and "of course" keep some of it for themselves).

...

It will hardly "perserve wealth".  It will transfer a lot of wealth from some people to other people.  Who will be the winners and who will be the losers depends on whether it will succeed or fail. 

You almost get it. And then you don't. It will preserve the wealth of the individual from the clutches of those who control the presses in fiat currencies.