MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[SolarSilver]

Nevertheless, the missing 650K BTC might might have been Satoshi's.

It's very unlikely that Satoshi would store any of his BTC on an exchange where he was not in control of the keys...

[DrApricot]

Nevertheless, the missing 650K BTC might might have been Satoshi's.

It's very unlikely that Satoshi would store any of his BTC on an exchange where he was not in control of the keys...

Common sense dictates that the person or group named Satoshi Nakamoto would never trust someone else with the means of moving his (their) stash, so does that not lead to a conclusion Mark Karpeles must be Satoshi, since he would of course trust himself?

Even Craig Wright or Dave Kleiman seem a lot more believable to me than Mark for a Satoshi role. The amount is virtually the same: 648,000 BTC declared missing from MtGox  vs. 650,000 BTC withdrawn from the Seychelles trust by Craig.

As mentioned in the LRB article http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n13/andrew-ohagan/the-satoshi-affair, Craig was planning to use these funds to pay for his "research and development stuff." It seems natural that an exchange like MtGox would be chosen to trade them all for fiat. Craig claims to have lost a "large wallet" when the exchange went down.

While it seems counter-intuitive since we were first told MtGox had a ginormous number of users, yet by May 25 of this year only 24,750 creditors had ever bothered to files claims: 9,863 of these were bitcoin-only claims, and 7,952 bitcoin claimants were subsequently approved by the trustee, yielding an average of 25.4 BTC per claimant.

The worldwide number of users, at least those of whom could pass muster with the trustee, is a far smaller one than early media accounts of the collapse led everyone to believe--amounting to merely a few thousand people instead of tens or hundreds of thousands.  Given this much smaller world of actual depositors who had funded accounts of any significance and verifiability, then is it too big of a stretch to believe that the missing 648,000 BTC may have belonged to a very small and select group or perhaps even to only one person?

[SolarSilver]

Even Craig Wright or Dave Kleiman seem a lot more believable to me than Mark for a Satoshi role. The amount is virtually the same: 648,000 BTC declared missing from MtGox  vs. 650,000 BTC withdrawn from the Seychelles trust by Craig.

As mentioned in the LRB article http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n13/andrew-ohagan/the-satoshi-affair, Craig was planning to use these funds to pay for his "research and development stuff." It seems natural that an exchange like MtGox would be chosen to trade them all for fiat. Craig claims to have lost a "large wallet" when the exchange went down.

If you want to convert BTC 650k into fiat then it makes no sense to dump everything onto one exchange, as none of the exchanges has/had the liquidity to handle such a volume...

[macsga]

MK is not Satoshi. Those who pay attention already know the answer to the riddle "who SN is". It's all in the web (DrApricot posted a relative link above), but for various reasons people chose not to acknowledge. FYI, Japan probably has the most strict policy against fraudulent behavior and the highest conviction rates. Letting MK walk may well prove his incompetence and certainly rules out his participation in confiscating the funds.

Only one thing is certain. This story is not over yet.  

[zeta1]

It seems very unlickely that MK is Satoshi

[STT]

Doesnt Japan have alot of company fraud of some type.   Like the deal with the olympus scandal and Michael Woodford who was fired after he objected to the cover up and dodgy accounting basically.  he raised it publicly but little was done immediately as he was seen as causing the problem

Some people got a few years jail eventually, sums involved, lost were something like 600m $ I think

Woodford stated his concerns that, far from learning from the scandal, Japan's response was to become even more secretive and unsupportive of change in areas highlighted by the scandal.[88]

[DrApricot]

Doesnt Japan have alot of company fraud of some type.   Like the deal with the olympus scandal and Michael Woodford who was fired after he objected to the cover up and dodgy accounting basically.  he raised it publicly but little was done immediately as he was seen as causing the problem

Some people got a few years jail eventually, sums involved, lost were something like 600m $ I think

Woodford stated his concerns that, far from learning from the scandal, Japan's response was to become even more secretive and unsupportive of change in areas highlighted by the scandal.[88]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/27/japan-s-mega-banks-have-mega-yakuza-trouble.html Mizuho Bank--I may have heard of them before.

[freedombit]

what is your point on that?

Look at the data - most heists are very small. However, there are three heists that are very large. It is kind of like a puzzle, and fortunately for us, the pieces are SO BIG and there are SO FEW that it seems to be fairly easy to start to put the pieces together.

 850,000    Total MtGox loss according to rumors (I've never seen this as an official number).
 744,405    Total MtGox loss according to Leaked Emergency Plan.

 171,995    Amount lost on Bitcoin Savings and Trust.
 263,024    Amount Seized from Silk Road by DHS.
 207,000    Amount of MtGox Suddenly "Found".
642,019  Sum of the three amounts above.

624,408    Amount of MtGox customers' coins that are "temporarily unavailable".

All three of these events; Bitcoin Savings and Trust, Silk Road, and MtGox are tied together.

All of the people closest to both sides are not saying a thing:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=871094.0;topicseen

Negotiations are happening behind the scenes. DHS, FBI, CIA, NSA or some other government agency from the US started seizing hardware and coins, but a handful of people at MtGox managed to protect a good portion of the coins by accidentally losing them. MtGox depositors got impatient, and Karpeles was forced to declare insolvency to protect himself from government officials that might have been a little over zealous. There may have been some "illegal" activities happening to protect the remaining Bitcoin, but it was viewed as justified because the prior seizures themselves are arguably "illegal". Irrational people on both sides did a lot of name calling, and over time, both sides realized how bad this looks for both sides. So, again, negotiations are happening. Seized and sold bitcoins are being "recovered" through drop and shop techniques on the market, pushing exchange rates down and grabbing BTC when possible. Eventually Kraken will announce that it is returning the the Bitcoin to early adopter Bitcoin users that never did a damn thing to deserve this from any of the parties involved.

Okay, so this last line is hopeful conjecture, but if it doesn't go down like this, it will be a major stain on all parties involved. If it does end like this, some of those moon travelers out there might get to put their suits on early.


Edit: if someone would like to footnote and provide sources for my numbers above, that would be nice for the community. I was going to but am a bit tired. Maybe another day.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4yl7do/mt_gox_might_have_been_insolvent_as_early_as_july/

[DrApricot]

what is your point on that?

 Seized and sold bitcoins are being "recovered" through drop and shop techniques on the market, pushing exchange rates down and grabbing BTC when possible.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4yl7do/mt_gox_might_have_been_insolvent_as_early_as_july/

What do you think the source of funds could be for this replacement (recovery) buying? Could it have come from exchanging the bitcoins purchased by Willy and Markus bots during the November, 2013 price spike for fiat? If so, that implies someone all this time must have been sitting on a rather large pile of fiat from those proceeds. I have seen in another forum speculation that these funds have been frozen by the Chinese government. This is really beginning to sound like the plotline for a Mr. Robot episode.

[freedombit]

what is your point on that?

 Seized and sold bitcoins are being "recovered" through drop and shop techniques on the market, pushing exchange rates down and grabbing BTC when possible.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4yl7do/mt_gox_might_have_been_insolvent_as_early_as_july/

What do you think the source of funds could be for this replacement (recovery) buying? Could it have come from exchanging the bitcoins purchased by Willy and Markus bots during the November, 2013 price spike for fiat? If so, that implies someone all this time must have been sitting on a rather large pile of fiat from those proceeds. I have seen in another forum speculation that these funds have been frozen by the Chinese government. This is really beginning to sound like the plotline for a Mr. Robot episode.

Oh wow. Been a while since I wrote that. The buy back was more of wishful thinking than a belief. However, I was thinking an investor wanting to help Bitcoin succeed. Someone wishing to breath life back into MtGox. Or possibly those that made the error bringing it down in the first place.

I recall there was speculation involving China. I thought it was BTC that was stuck there, but I may very well be wrong. Conspiracy theory: to spread BTC to China, an event like this had to occur, whether dollars or BTC were seized. There was not much activity there prior.

Edit: clarity

[BlueBanderBear]

Any news yet about the paying out yet? Heard that there would be some progress in September?

[cesmak]

As stated by the attorney on mtgox site, next creditor meeting 28 september 2016

[Ban Curtain]

Is anybody from here has visited the creditors' meeting? Any news from there?

Here is report:
https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20160928_report.pdf

They even doesn't estimate timing of money distributions, just set next meeting in next year (surprisingly in 2017 not in 2018...). Seems we totally fucked up, first by MKapreles and now by Nabuyaki Kobayashi who wants to earn another million as his lawyer fees...

[Ban Curtain]

Nice result! Lawyer has spend over 10,000,000 YEN as his fees in "very hard" investigation, but hasn't investigated anything!

A great question is what they have been doing last 4 months as far as their result is 5-page report about nothing and new planned meeting (about nothing again I suppose) in 2017...

 

[DrApricot]

Nice result! Lawyer has spend over 10,000,000 YEN as his fees in "very hard" investigation, but hasn't investigated anything!

A great question is what they have been doing last 4 months as far as their result is 5-page report about nothing and new planned meeting (about nothing again I suppose) in 2017...

 

Blowing more smoke! Yet, it's a good time now to question the legitimacy of this whole proceeding, and ask what better approach could have been taken? Why were the proposals from Sunlot, BitOcean, etc for restarting MtGox summarily dismissed by trustee Nobuaki Kobayashi in favour of liquidation? Is everyone completely satisfied with the way the investigation of this matter has been handled by Kraken, the Tokyo authorities, etc.? Where are the results, and do privacy concerns still out-weigh the need to release the addresses so that the disappeared bitcoins can be traced? It's been two and a half years now, but what will we be saying when it has been five?

[ImI]

Nice result! Lawyer has spend over 10,000,000 YEN as his fees in "very hard" investigation, but hasn't investigated anything!

A great question is what they have been doing last 4 months as far as their result is 5-page report about nothing and new planned meeting (about nothing again I suppose) in 2017...

 

Its all about Coinlab. They filled a lawsuit against the trustee and are trying to get all the funds that Gox had left in the end. This lawsuit can last for years.

[bitcoinvest]

in case you are interested, like his article title writes: " so here we are again "
he is back and he can use computer again but he can't speak at the momment for many things as he wrote...
of course i speak for M.K.

read all here...

http://blog.magicaltux.net/post/151457812119/so-here-we-are-again

[emelac]

Nice result! Lawyer has spend over 10,000,000 YEN as his fees in "very hard" investigation, but hasn't investigated anything!

A great question is what they have been doing last 4 months as far as their result is 5-page report about nothing and new planned meeting (about nothing again I suppose) in 2017...

 

Its all about Coinlab. They filled a lawsuit against the trustee and are trying to get all the funds that Gox had left in the end. This lawsuit can last for years.

CoinLab sued Gox in June 2013 for $75 million+, and the suit isn't over yet. It wants the lion's share of the Gox coins, and the suit could drag on for eternity.

https://news.bitcoin.com/coinlab-lawsuit-delaying-gox-payouts/

A years-old $75 million lawsuit against Mt Gox by U.S. company CoinLab is delaying payouts to creditors, the Japanese bankruptcy trustee revealed today.

There is only $10.48 million USD left of the money in Gox, and 202,185 BTC. The longer this drags on the faster that $10.48 million is being consumed by lawyer's fees.

[macsga]

My guess is that we will probably see a reduction of what's expected in terms of both USD and BTC when (rather IF) this is over. Coinlab will probably come into an agreement with the trustee provided we're heading for 3rd Bitcoin Bubble (at current prices the BTC-to-JPY estimations are way off anyway).

[mgroenouwe]

Does anybody know which BTC-rate the trustee will use IF there will be a payout from BTC to BTC? The locked rate from the beginning of the bankruptcy, or the rate at the time of the payout?

Current conversion BTC rate is more than doubled if you compare it to the locked rate which was used for the claims. If you convert the BTC bankruptcy balance to JPY, the trustee has now much more JPY to devide among everybody, so a higher % payout in JPY. But in BTC's it's much lower (approx. 45% at current rate). So if the trustee will use the rate at the time of payout everybody will get 45% of the accepted BTC balance. And if the total value in JPY is not enough, everybody will get a xx% of that 45%. Is this correct or am i missing something?

If you have GOXBTC on BB you can sell them for 0.14 BTC per GOXBTC (14%). The trustee will probably payout somewhere around 20% right (=old estimation)? But what if BTC is at current rate, or maybe even at or above the ATH when the trustee starts with the payout procedure?