[ANN][CrowdSale Ended]🌟🌟🌟🌟 NVO Decentralized Exchange | MultiWallet 🌟🌟🌟🌟

[Jabbawa]

That is funny if they want to build their own safenet. It seems 10+ years of development is not enough and they can do better  

That's right - and they've said they're going to do it in 4 months. And they already managed to get it working by accident apparently.

They also didn't realise that the SafeNet is already running under testing & say the code is fundamentally flawed (but cannot comment on what this flaw is).

The bizare arrogance / ignorance / nastiness of the NVO team is strange to see play out.

It's a shame that they managed to get $7m from people, and I hope their Escrows offer refunds to anyone who can now clearly see the disgusting character of this team.

Thanks Jabba for making sure there is accountability for what the NVO team has been saying.

However, there's nothing wrong with being 26 - just a lot wrong with being arrogant, abrasive, ignorant, untruthful, threatening, and the likes

Young people are more creative and usually more idealistic and enthusiastic too. I'm all for young people . I was all for nemgun when I first heard about the project and spoke to him in PM. But if you were in school uniform for two years after the birth of a project then it's probably wise to be a tiny bit humble and recognise that you have very little experience next to these other folks though. It was just the audacity of it that got me. Vitalik never showed this kind of disrespect to David and he was younger with more achievements behind him, they discussed the differences in their approaches and philosophies in a civilised way, and Vitalik showed and was shown respect. I apologise if I came off as age-ist, that was not my intent. I was just trying to hammer home why he should maybe be a little bit humble before he really knows what he is talking about - there is no way he can understand what SAFE is or how it really works yet, it takes weeks/months of dedicated work for that, even for a super-bright young coder with lots of blockchain experience (since SAFE is nothing like a blockchain).

Anyway, I get your point, I should not be so personal. I just feel a little betrayed since I stood up for nvo and quite liked numgun before yesterday's episode. Cheeky bugger speaking to David like that with no evidence, really made me angry and upset me... as you can probably tell.

Anyway, I'll leave it there. People can make up their own minds.

[1714691893]

1714691893

[1714691893]

1714691893

[Jabbawa]

Dude it is you who doesn't want to listen. You keep repeating yourself and ignoring the response.

What is about SAFE specifically that you want to learn about? Do you want to learn about Data Chains (more effort than learning about blockchain from scratch), or do you want to learn about Routing (that's a really big one and not for the faint of heart), or Data republish, or Node ageing, do you just want to take a look through the APIs? Perhaps you want to see more on how the economics and farming rewards will work? Or is SAFEcoin itself more interesting to you?

OORRRRR do you want to see some very broad big picture stuff so you can find out where you want to dive in? If you want the broad big picture stuff to get the 10,000 ft view then yes, I'd say the blog and some of the videos and podcasts are a great place to START. There are not 300 hours there and David has only appeared in handful of them, but there are plenty of good ones to get you started. Once you get a picture of how all the pieces fit together THEN you can dive into specific things with plenty of documentation to guide you - RFCs, mountains of code, plenty of text write ups and whitepapers, mathematical analysis and a dedicated developer forum to ask questions in etc.

You went to David with a question like "So, this new internet thing, how does it work, I want a single document explaining it all for me?" He is way too busy to guide anyone through the answer to that question. Of course there is no short answer to it. As he said, dive in and ask questions. It is hard work, many developers who are used to much simpler ideas and projects do shy away from it. Its value is not determined by the ease with which you can grasp it all from documentation in one place though. Its value will come from the utility of the product if it works - just like the current web it seeks to replace.

I don't know why you keep referring to the podcasts rather than all the text links. You already had your crowdsale, you should already have the 10,000ft view. I think the reason David gave those links as well is because you did not seem to understand what SAFE is or how it works. You said you had created safenet10.0 on your own in a few days. Of course that sounds crazy, so David linked you to information that would help a noob get the big picture of how it all works. You didn't even bother to investigate though, you just declared that you know best and the project can't work because it is too big to put in one document.

I do get emotional about maidsafe because it is a very important project. That browser you love so much was built by someone in the community with donations funded by us last year - before crypto exploded and money was more of an issue. I personally donated 1btc towards it back then. You are right that I feel passionately about this, but I think I do it for the right reasons.

No one wants or needs nvo money though - apart from your investors.

BIGbtc, a random forum member, kept asking for it, that's just his way. No one else is trying to solicit money from you. Please show me any evidence of anyone from maidsafe asking for money when not in response to being offered it?

All you have to do to stop me posting here is to stop posting inaccurate and misleading things about maidsafe.

[nemgun]

That is funny if they want to build their own safenet. It seems 10+ years of development is not enough and they can do better  

That's right - and they've said they're going to do it in 4 months. And they already managed to get it working by accident apparently.

They also didn't realise that the SafeNet is already running under testing & say the code is fundamentally flawed (but cannot comment on what this flaw is).

The bizare arrogance / ignorance / nastiness of the NVO team is strange to see play out.

It's a shame that they managed to get $7m from people, and I hope their Escrows offer refunds to anyone who can now clearly see the disgusting character of this team.

Thanks Jabba for making sure there is accountability for what the NVO team has been saying.

However, there's nothing wrong with being 26 - just a lot wrong with being arrogant, abrasive, ignorant, untruthful, threatening, and the likes

Young people are more creative and usually more idealistic and enthusiastic too. I'm all for young people . I was all for nemgun when I first heard about the project and spoke to him in PM. But if you were in school uniform for two years after the birth of a project then it's probably wise to be a tiny bit humble and recognise that you have very little experience next to these other folks though. It was just the audacity of it that got me. Vitalik never showed this kind of disrespect to David and he was younger with more achievements behind him, they discussed the differences in their approaches and philosophies in a civilised way, and Vitalik showed and was shown respect. I apologise if I came off as age-ist, that was not my intent. I was just trying to hammer home why he should maybe be a little bit humble before he really knows what he is talking about - there is no way he can understand what SAFE is or how it really works yet, it takes weeks/months of dedicated work for that, even for a super-bright young coder with lots of blockchain experience (since SAFE is nothing like a blockchain).

Anyway, I get your point, I should not be so personal. I just feel a little betrayed since I stood up for nvo and quite liked numgun before yesterday's episode. Cheeky bugger speaking to David like that with no evidence, really made me angry and upset me... as you can probably tell.

Anyway, I'll leave it there. People can make up their own minds.

I have betrayed no one, let me explain my personal opinion, I have only 9 years left as lead dev in the best scenario. I was lucky to have a computer at the age of 3 years, you should know that all developers says they had access to a computer from their young age, the thing is that today my Son have a smart phone, he have access to a much more powerful computer than what I had, so the future generation will be much more impressive than the one of which I am a part. Simply because they will adapt more easily to computers and new technologies than me.

The problem is that when we see someone like David Irvine, we expect to see something more ordered and disciplined because they he have the necessary experience to understand that everything must be ordered.
On the other hand, what put me off is that i haven't found an architecture, nor this order at maidsafe, instead i have found podcasts.

With age I would start to lose my memory, I will have to start writing everything, arrange it, put it in place so as not to forget it, and don't lose people around me.
It was an education I received from my father, and I have been punished all my life for discipline and order. I applied this method and it is thanks to that that I succeed in my career.

Now that I have recruited a mentor, spokesperson and representative who arranges and structures my ideas, validates the work done, I am lucky that he is an IT consultant whom I seek advices from, very Respectuous, resonable, and I told him that I can have many ideas and that I need help to structure all that, you can say that he does a lot of baby sitting with me , i know that i have defects and I try to correct them.

But to say that I betrayed maidsafe simply because I pointed out the error committed by David Irvine is serious. I remind you that at 40-50 years you can remarry, make a normal life again, it is not like you were 70 years old. But when there is something, I can not be hypocritical and silent, it is not my style.
And I was not disrespectful, I was threatening yes with development, it is my right to ask my supplier to do his job properly because I have to answer my investors, it is not logical that the core tells you to dig when you ask for information, or that it does not have time to talk and redirecting to the podcasts.

It is also my right to give my personal opinion when I say that it is managed like an IT sect, because I can not imagine a developer listening to 300 hours of podcasts, at the rate of 8 hours a day, he would go crazy, That's why I said to delete them because they have no utility.

[greyskies]

Oh look at what I posted whilst the fund raiser was being carried out and no-one listened to me:

There's some big warning signs here.

Firstly, it's a decentralised exchange but the key part of the code won't be open source or explained? That's a fail straight away.

Secondly, I'm highly skeptical they have a bullet proof algorithm in place. It looks to me like they are just hoping to raise a ton of money and figure it all out later on - hardly fair on investors. Either that or it's a carbon copy of one of the existing DEX algorithms that are working out in the wild - e.g. Blocknet.

If you guys can't answer questions on how it works, you are not going to inspire shrewd investors to part with their money. Blocknet for example uses check lock time verify to lock up the funds used for the cross chain trading swaps until the transaction is complete. It has anti-ddos measures in place to prevent orderbook spam. People run the service nodes which handle the trading fees, masternodes cost 5000 Block and collect a proportion of the fees. And so on. How do the validators handle all of this?

"It looks to me like they are just hoping to raise a ton of money and figure it all out later on"

[Jabbawa]

"It is also my right to give my personal opinion when I say that it is managed like an IT sect, because I can not imagine a developer listening to 300 hours of podcasts, at the rate of 8 hours a day, he would go crazy, That's why I said to delete them because they have no utility."

David has never made any podcasts, some of the community have and he has been interviewed a few times. Why will you not listen?

He gave you a link to a few in case you wanted to listen to one or two to get the big picture, so you then know where to dive in to learn about internet 2.0 from actual developer focused documentation. The podcasts are NOT for devs.

Devs should already have a big picture understand and be going through documentation and code. You asked the most basic question possible (how can I learn about this thing?), so you got the broadest answer, 'go dig, here's all the links from big picture to RFCs and code'.

David works like 19 hour days, how would he have time to walk you through huge mounds of documentation? You need to decide what it is that you want to learn about, then start there. You don't need any help or guidance, none of the other App devs or core devs were given a single doc either, yet they are all working away. 20'ish core devs and another dozen or more App developers all managed to get their head around SAFE after a few weeks/months of reading and asking questions. Why not ask any of them how they started learning about it and where the best docs are for the things you want to learn about rather than asking the head of the project who is way too busy for that? https://forum.safedev.org/

[nemgun]

Dude it is you who doesn't want to listen. You keep repeating yourself and ignoring the response.

What is about SAFE specifically that you want to learn about? Do you want to learn about Data Chains (more effort than learning about blockchain from scratch), or do you want to learn about Routing (that's a really big one and not for the faint of heart), or Data republish, or Node ageing, do you just want to take a look through the APIs? Perhaps you want to see more on how the economics and farming rewards will work? Or is SAFEcoin itself more interesting to you?

OORRRRR do you want to see some very broad big picture stuff so you can find out where you want to dive in? If you want the broad big picture stuff to get the 10,000 ft view then yes, I'd say the blog and some of the videos and podcasts are a great place to START. There are not 300 hours there and David has only appeared in handful of them, but there are plenty of good ones to get you started. Once you get a picture of how all the pieces fit together THEN you can dive into specific things with plenty of documentation to guide you - RFCs, mountains of code, plenty of text write ups and whitepapers, mathematical analysis and a dedicated developer forum to ask questions in etc.

You went to David with a question like "So, this new internet thing, how does it work, I want a single document explaining it all for me?" He is way too busy to guide anyone through the answer to that question. Of course there is no short answer to it. As he said, dive in and ask questions. It is hard work, many developers who are used to much simpler ideas and projects do shy away from it. Its value is not determined by the ease with which you can grasp it all from documentation in one place though. Its value will come from the utility of the product if it works - just like the current web it seeks to replace.

I don't know why you keep referring to the podcasts rather than all the text links. You already had your crowdsale, you should already have the 10,000ft view. I think the reason David gave those links as well is because you did not seem to understand what SAFE is or how it works. You said you had created safenet10.0 on your own in a few days. Of course that sounds crazy, so David linked you to information that would help a noob get the big picture of how it all works. You didn't even bother to investigate though, you just declared that you know best and the project can't work because it is too big to put in one document.

I do get emotional about maidsafe because it is a very important project. That browser you love so much was built by someone in the community with donations funded by us last year - before crypto exploded and money was more of an issue. I personally donated 1btc towards it back then. You are right that I feel passionately about this, but I think I do it for the right reasons.

No one wants or needs nvo money though - apart from your investors.

BIGbtc, a random forum member, kept asking for it, that's just his way. No one else is trying to solicit money from you. Please show me any evidence of anyone from maidsafe asking for money when not in response to being offered it?

All you have to do to stop me posting here is to stop posting inaccurate and misleading things about maidsafe.

As long as you are respectful, you can post as much as you want, any questions you want with great pleasure.

You have almost understood what I ask, it could even be a book, a global assessment, where you are, where you are going to go, which parts lack development, what was the initial vision, Architecture of departure, see what has been changed and why, a general audit.

I do not need to listen to the podcasts or see videos, I need to see the code, I have done it, now I need to see the architecture to take the final result. What is missing, what is needed, what needs to be deployed and what are the means I have to deploy for NVO, as I said, NVO has to use maidsafe, which is why I Asked for a global plan, there must surely be a year-end balance sheets on the state of progress, what is missing in the code, the reason for this lack,  from there, yes, we will be able to deploy something , And it is only then that I could see all of it.

You should do some cleaning in the repo, keep it clean, you said you have migrated from safe launcher to a safe browser, but safe launcher is still there. Put it in order, we know that the safe launcher have been replace by the safe browser with safe auth, one has been updated, and the other abandoned, then put some order, do some cleaning, that's all I ask, thanks to this, we can make interesting projections, organize yourself.

Oh look at what I posted whilst the fund raiser was being carried out and no-one listened to me:

There's some big warning signs here.

Firstly, it's a decentralised exchange but the key part of the code won't be open source or explained? That's a fail straight away.

Secondly, I'm highly skeptical they have a bullet proof algorithm in place. It looks to me like they are just hoping to raise a ton of money and figure it all out later on - hardly fair on investors. Either that or it's a carbon copy of one of the existing DEX algorithms that are working out in the wild - e.g. Blocknet.

If you guys can't answer questions on how it works, you are not going to inspire shrewd investors to part with their money. Blocknet for example uses check lock time verify to lock up the funds used for the cross chain trading swaps until the transaction is complete. It has anti-ddos measures in place to prevent orderbook spam. People run the service nodes which handle the trading fees, masternodes cost 5000 Block and collect a proportion of the fees. And so on. How do the validators handle all of this?

"It looks to me like they are just hoping to raise a ton of money and figure it all out later on"

Well, if we were interested by the funds, we would have taken the 30% of the first milestone directly, however, we took just what we need around 9%, we don't want to waste the funds.

"It is also my right to give my personal opinion when I say that it is managed like an IT sect, because I can not imagine a developer listening to 300 hours of podcasts, at the rate of 8 hours a day, he would go crazy, That's why I said to delete them because they have no utility."

David has never made any podcasts, some of the community have and he has been interviewed a few times. Why will you not listen?

He gave you a link to a few in case you wanted to listen to one or two to get the big picture, so you then know where to dive in to learn about internet 2.0 from actual developer focused documentation. The podcasts are NOT for devs.

Devs should already have a big picture understand and be going through documentation and code. You asked the most basic question possible (how can I learn about this thing?), so you got the broadest answer, 'go dig, here's all the links from big picture to RFCs and code'.

David works like 19 hour days, how would he have time to walk you through huge mounds of documentation? You need to decide what it is that you want to learn about, then start there. You don't need any help or guidance, none of the other App devs or core devs were given a single doc either, yet they are all working away. 20'ish core devs and another dozen or more App developers all managed to get their head around SAFE after a few weeks/months of reading and asking questions. Why not ask any of them how they started learning about it and where the best docs are for the things you want to learn about rather than asking the head of the project who is way too busy for that? https://forum.safedev.org/

You understand better and better what i mean, I do not have months or weeks to listen, to seek, to dig, I already have the tools, I know the languages. So what I'm asking is the global plan, I give you an example:

When you take a mason to build a house, he asks you the architectural plan, you do not tell him dig, or check with the neighbor he will explain better, or go see the plumber he has an idea, or dig well you will find Chalk and you will understand what I mean, or even learn. He already knows his job, he already know how to build and you ask him to learn ?

Imagine that you builds a hotel, you're just going to tell him, that it is more beautiful compared to the ancient with more features. He won't care about that, he will ask you the plan to know where to begin.

It's the same thing when you say you're going to do an internet 2.0, you need a plan, imagination is good, but you have to write it down and order it. And so you understood that if I have to recruit developers for maidsafe, I will just lose money by telling them dig, you have months and weeks paid to dig. This is a fundamental explanation because it means that you still have nothing at all, you tell people, understand our idea, and invent it, that's why I said I will do My own safenet if you do not manage to do it because I have to find out yours by myself.
I hope you understand what I'm saying, it's simpler to make mine that's all. Understand that you still have not started serious things, simply because of lack of structure. A lot of people could understand what I said.

Soon a team member will meet David, he will ask if we can send someone for a global audit, in order to prepare an architecture, the reports will be shared by both teams, the audit would give a global note, an architecture we could publish publicly, from there, we could all work more seriously, it is the most professional solution i can offer.
If we have a negative note from the audit, we would have to go for a different technology, something more reliable and realisable, It is enough just to be honest and to put to the evidence.

[striker7334 2.0]

It's nice to see the forum getting along so well   I also remain skeptical about being able to replicate SAFENET with Safenet10.0 it is a 10+ year project and still in development for a reason. Now admittedly I don't understand the coding and network side of hows its built so there maybe there is some way it can be done that I'm not aware of. I would make the project open source through github; otherwise it does come off as brash and arrogant to raise millions for a promised project built on the network essentially saying "Hey we trust this network enough to build our project on it" then turn around and say "Wait nevermind the project is too disorganized and cluttered to build our project on it so we're going to build the project on our own network." That sounds both very unrealistic and makes the team look disorganized on top of it because now the roadmap and details have changed and that in turn makes NVO look like a pipe dream to investors. I would offer either a refund to those that want it as the terms of the roadmap have changed by a huge degree and open source the projects if you haven't already to show you are as serious can be to bring this project to life.

[bittick]

And here are the "who has the biggest dick" wars again...
I don't get it... what will this penis swinging going to achieve?
Please take this discussion offline. Whip them out. Compare. Done deal.

This 'debate' of yours isn't making anyone look good.

[bittick]

It's nice to see the forum getting along so well   I also remain skeptical about being able to replicate SAFENET with Safenet10.0 it is a 10+ year project and still in development for a reason. Now admittedly I don't understand the coding and network side of hows its built so there maybe there is some way it can be done that I'm not aware of. I would make the project open source through github; otherwise it does come off as brash and arrogant to raise millions for a promised project built on the network essentially saying "Hey we trust this network enough to build our project on it" then turn around and say "Wait nevermind the project is too disorganized and cluttered to build our project on it so we're going to build the project on our own network." That sounds both very unrealistic and makes the team look disorganized on top of it because now the roadmap and details have changed and that in turn makes NVO look like a pipe dream to investors. I would offer either a refund to those that want it as the terms of the roadmap have changed by a huge degree and open source the projects if you haven't already to show you are as serious can be to bring this project to life.

I sort of agree. Refunds must be facilitated upon request if the investors lose trust in the devs and their approach.
However, this is just the first month after the ico ended and devs changing their mind about the base of the platform is alarming, it is not a step backwards. What is alarming indeed is the fact that this comes out within the first month after ico ended. I would have hoped that the NVO devs had close contact with the SAFE team and knew what they're getting themselves into before announcing "Hey, - I"VE GOT THIS" sort of attitude.

I am very worried with the language nemgun is using on and off this forum. Highly unprofessional, petty, and destructive.

I really wonder how this will turn out...

[nemgun]

It's nice to see the forum getting along so well  I also remain skeptical about being able to replicate SAFENET with Safenet10.0 it is a 10+ year project and still in development for a reason. Now admittedly I don't understand the coding and network side of hows its built so there maybe there is some way it can be done that I'm not aware of. I would make the project open source through github; otherwise it does come off as brash and arrogant to raise millions for a promised project built on the network essentially saying "Hey we trust this network enough to build our project on it" then turn around and say "Wait nevermind the project is too disorganized and cluttered to build our project on it so we're going to build the project on our own network." That sounds both very unrealistic and makes the team look disorganized on top of it because now the roadmap and details have changed and that in turn makes NVO look like a pipe dream to investors. I would offer either a refund to those that want it as the terms of the roadmap have changed by a huge degree and open source the projects if you haven't already to show you are as serious can be to bring this project to life.

I sort of agree. Refunds must be facilitated upon request if the investors lose trust in the devs and their approach.
However, this is just the first month after the ico ended and devs changing their mind about the base of the platform is alarming, it is not a step backwards. What is alarming indeed is the fact that this comes out within the first month after ico ended. I would lave hoped that the NVO devs had close contact with the SAFE team and knew what they're getting themselves into before announcing "Hey, - I"VE GOT THIS" sort of attitude.

I really wonder how this will turn out...

There is a missunderstanding here, no one received a refund demand, Ton sent private messages to all the users who wanted to be refunded, no one answered, however we received a message from Jabba saying that people want to be refunded, while he haven't invested. It means that it is just a way to destabilize NVO and its investors.
Secondly, the roadmap haven't changed, even on the website. It is normal to have problems at the begining as we started to work, we demanded an architecture which is normal but we have been unable to find it.
As soon as we finish to stabilize the global architecture we will push it on github, it is not a problem.
Architecture ==> Requirements ==> Skills ==> Recruitments ==> Estimated delivery time ==> Roadmap ==> This is how does it works.
This is why i asked the safe architecture, but they don't have it, which caused some issues. From the side of NVO without maidsafe, the architecture is already made, you may have seen on the screen, you should have an idea about the features of the wallet, which means there was an architecture, requirements, skills.
Now for the validator, i said that i will use blockstream tech, as element lets you use a sidechain who's purpose is to record trading informations to let people trade offline in a decentralized storage. I am working on this architecture, how to fully decentralize it, how not to keep controle over it. This is why i asked for a maidsafe architecture, the safe launcher have been replaced by safe browser, forked from https://github.com/beakerbrowser/beaker , i know about the next developments related to browsers as they want to change the way we use APIs and websockets, browsers want to implement the usage of P2P technologies and use them instead. My problematic here is that i don't want to get access to the private keys, this is why i talk about a decentralized exhcange, no one should have access to any information.
I am not interested by self-encryption, i want to kepp nothing on the user-side, i checked it, and it is not what i was looking for, this is why i asked an architecture to know the full features, where will it go.
It is totally legitimate to ask for such a document. I asked for this document as would have helped me to bring developers for maidsafe in order to work on the issues, the unfinished code, and what haven't started yet.
Meanwhile, as i haven't got the document, i have a second project with personal working on it, i found solutions there and though it would be helpful, it is legitimate too, it would bring a fresh air in the project, but it went in a drama.
I never said that we won't use maidsafe, as i can't help them, can't offer a technology, i can just wait, i said that in 4 months if they are not ready we will have to check for a different technology, and it have been said during the crowdsale.

[tonbi]

It's nice to see the forum getting along so well   I also remain skeptical about being able to replicate SAFENET with Safenet10.0 it is a 10+ year project and still in development for a reason. Now admittedly I don't understand the coding and network side of hows its built so there maybe there is some way it can be done that I'm not aware of. I would make the project open source through github; otherwise it does come off as brash and arrogant to raise millions for a promised project built on the network essentially saying "Hey we trust this network enough to build our project on it" then turn around and say "Wait nevermind the project is too disorganized and cluttered to build our project on it so we're going to build the project on our own network." That sounds both very unrealistic and makes the team look disorganized on top of it because now the roadmap and details have changed and that in turn makes NVO look like a pipe dream to investors. I would offer either a refund to those that want it as the terms of the roadmap have changed by a huge degree and open source the projects if you haven't already to show you are as serious can be to bring this project to life.

I sort of agree. Refunds must be facilitated upon request if the investors lose trust in the devs and their approach.
However, this is just the first month after the ico ended and devs changing their mind about the base of the platform is alarming, it is not a step backwards. What is alarming indeed is the fact that this comes out within the first month after ico ended. I would have hoped that the NVO devs had close contact with the SAFE team and knew what they're getting themselves into before announcing "Hey, - I"VE GOT THIS" sort of attitude.

I am very worried with the language nemgun is using on and off this forum. Highly unprofessional, petty, and destructive.

I really wonder how this will turn out...

This is the same question I received on Slack
http://imgur.com/a/LjVVf

[Jabbawa]

"Jabba saying that people want to be refunded"

I did not say that, I said IF people want to be refunded you should honour any request. I also said quite clearly I was not one of the investors.

"we demanded an architecture which is normal but we have been unable to find it."

It would be 'normal' to raise the $7M AFTER looking closely into maidsafe and how safenet works, not before.

"This is why i asked the safe architecture, but they don't have it"

They do have it, but it is all in parts/sections. The documentation exists in massive repositories, each piece of the picture being bigger than many crypto projects are in their entirety.

There is a mountain of text, whitepapers, the wiki github, everything you need except a spoon fed single document of 10,000 pages that contains it all in one place.

"Meanwhile, as i haven't got the document"

All the documentation is public. You can go and find whatever you want, don't expect very busy maidsafe devs to walk you through anything, just go an find whatever it is that you need, you've been told where the data is.

"I do not need to listen to the podcasts or see videos, I need to see the code, I have done it, now I need to see the architecture"

You've done it? Have you looked on github? Have you seen how much code there is any how many sections/libraries. No human being could have taken a good look at their code in that time. It just sounds mad. Code for what. It's like saying 'I've had a good look at the code for the internet today, now someone tell me about the architecture'.  This is not some simple little DLT project which is contained all in one whitepaper.

"What is missing, what is needed, what needs to be deployed and what are the means I have to deploy for NVO"

You can take a look at the roadmap to see what's missing, but really it is not so much a question of what is left to be done, but what can or do you want to help with? There are things left to be done everywhere. It is a huge beast of a project. They are working hard on datachains part2 now, but that's way too complicated for anyone to just dive into, perhaps you'd like to work on some simpler stuff around safecoin now that mutable data has advanced far enough as an easy way in, or if you want to help make the APIs as developer friendly as possible that might be a good place to start. To be honest, if I was skilled enough to help I'd be looking at the areas I had skills in and seeing what I could contribute, not demanding the conductor of a huge orchestra stop playing and walk you round introducing you to each instrumental section, or to give you a document that not only describes the song being played, but the employment rights of the musicians, the building plans and the accounting stuff for ticket sales. All these things are speerate and have their own areas, the conductor is too busy to walk anyone through it all, even someone who would like to help if they can. It is not an easy thing to help with, they hire very selectively and try to waste as little time as they can catchng up their own full time staff. They don't have time to personally take on catching up potential helpers who they don't know.

"You should do some cleaning in the repo, keep it clean, you said you have migrated from safe launcher to a safe browser, but safe launcher is still there."

It is still there for a reason, some app devs were using it for their own builds of mock routing... or something like that anyway. It will be removed when it is no longer being used by anyone.

"Imagine that you builds a hotel, you're just going to tell him, that it is more beautiful compared to the ancient with more features. He won't care about that, he will ask you the plan to know where to begin."

Great example, and if you take a hotel in this example what you are asking for is a single document that contains the building plans as well as the business plans for the hotel, the accounts, the grocery orders for the kitchen and the employee records. All these things exist, but not in one place, what part of this hotel are you interested in? It is all made out of code and all built in the digital world, but it has even more parts that are even more distinct than in these examples.

"I hope you understand what I'm saying, it's simpler to make mine that's all."

I am being completely honest and not facetious when I say that if you can make your own safenet before maidsafe has launched then I will absolutely apologise to you in a very public way. I would love for you to achieve those goals - 'privacy, security, freedom, for everyone'. That is what I really care about (I suppose I'd like to get rich off it too, but that isn't how I found crypto and it's not why I'm here). If you can win us those goals then I will become an evangelist for every future endeavour from you. The only thing that might help me sleep at night is a solution to the dystopian future of centralised control that looms over our heads. If you can save my kids from that then I will be forever grateful.  The reason I defend David Irvine is because he has been working hard to try and achieve that goal for over a decade and he has always been completely honest and transparent, and he has never done it for the money or to try to get rich - unlike most other projects in crypto.

[vlom]

may i have a summary please. and from both sides would be great. i think i deserve this because i send money in the ICO. thank you.

[Niksa90]

may i have a summary please. and from both sides would be great. i think i deserve this because i send money in the ICO. thank you.

Summary:
I think NVO and MaidSafe teams went into a fight. It all started on MaidSafe forum, but Jabba wants to continue this really deep discussion, so he came to try and make scenes on the NVO announcement.

I followed their "Rap Battle", but now I'm getting sick of that.

Advice to the arguing sides

@Jabba if you want to do melodramas, go do them somewhere else, what is this are you supporting or are you challenging the NVO team, or are you simply having too much time so you've decided to waste someone else time.

By "trying to help the investors" you're only hurting all of us. All of us knew it is based on MaidSafe - a network that may or may not achieve the requirements NVO has, we still went consciously into NVO's project.

The only thing positive, not from you but from this "Forum Drama" is that @nemgun will try to make the network they need. So these are the things that may happen:
He may build your Maid's project before them
He may fail
Maid may finish their network.
Maid may fail

and why are we here?

Give NVO team the support for our decentralized exchange, so stop wasting time and start giving support.

@nemgun stop wasting your time with people who are spending their life making comments, and go do things that might improve our community.

[nemgun]

"Jabba saying that people want to be refunded"

I did not say that, I said IF people want to be refunded you should honour any request. I also said quite clearly I was not one of the investors.

"we demanded an architecture which is normal but we have been unable to find it."

It would be 'normal' to raise the $7M AFTER looking closely into maidsafe and how safenet works, not before.

"This is why i asked the safe architecture, but they don't have it"

They do have it, but it is all in parts/sections. The documentation exists in massive repositories, each piece of the picture being bigger than many crypto projects are in their entirety.

There is a mountain of text, whitepapers, the wiki github, everything you need except a spoon fed single document of 10,000 pages that contains it all in one place.

"Meanwhile, as i haven't got the document"

All the documentation is public. You can go and find whatever you want, don't expect very busy maidsafe devs to walk you through anything, just go an find whatever it is that you need, you've been told where the data is.

"I do not need to listen to the podcasts or see videos, I need to see the code, I have done it, now I need to see the architecture"

You've done it? Have you looked on github? Have you seen how much code there is any how many sections/libraries. No human being could have taken a good look at their code in that time. It just sounds mad. Code for what. It's like saying 'I've had a good look at the code for the internet today, now someone tell me about the architecture'.  This is not some simple little DLT project which is contained all in one whitepaper.

"What is missing, what is needed, what needs to be deployed and what are the means I have to deploy for NVO"

You can take a look at the roadmap to see what's missing, but really it is not so much a question of what is left to be done, but what can or do you want to help with? There are things left to be done everywhere. It is a huge beast of a project. They are working hard on datachains part2 now, but that's way too complicated for anyone to just dive into, perhaps you'd like to work on some simpler stuff around safecoin now that mutable data has advanced far enough as an easy way in, or if you want to help make the APIs as developer friendly as possible that might be a good place to start. To be honest, if I was skilled enough to help I'd be looking at the areas I had skills in and seeing what I could contribute, not demanding the conductor of a huge orchestra stop playing and walk you round introducing you to each instrumental section, or to give you a document that not only describes the song being played, but the employment rights of the musicians, the building plans and the accounting stuff for ticket sales. All these things are speerate and have their own areas, the conductor is too busy to walk anyone through it all, even someone who would like to help if they can. It is not an easy thing to help with, they hire very selectively and try to waste as little time as they can catchng up their own full time staff. They don't have time to personally take on catching up potential helpers who they don't know.

"You should do some cleaning in the repo, keep it clean, you said you have migrated from safe launcher to a safe browser, but safe launcher is still there."

It is still there for a reason, some app devs were using it for their own builds of mock routing... or something like that anyway. It will be removed when it is no longer being used by anyone.

"Imagine that you builds a hotel, you're just going to tell him, that it is more beautiful compared to the ancient with more features. He won't care about that, he will ask you the plan to know where to begin."

Great example, and if you take a hotel in this example what you are asking for is a single document that contains the building plans as well as the business plans for the hotel, the accounts, the grocery orders for the kitchen and the employee records. All these things exist, but not in one place, what part of this hotel are you interested in? It is all made out of code and all built in the digital world, but it has even more parts that are even more distinct than in these examples.

"I hope you understand what I'm saying, it's simpler to make mine that's all."

I am being completely honest and not facetious when I say that if you can make your own safenet before maidsafe has launched then I will absolutely apologise to you in a very public way. I would love for you to achieve those goals - 'privacy, security, freedom, for everyone'. That is what I really care about (I suppose I'd like to get rich off it too, but that isn't how I found crypto and it's not why I'm here). If you can win us those goals then I will become an evangelist for every future endeavour from you. The only thing that might help me sleep at night is a solution to the dystopian future of centralised control that looms over our heads. If you can save my kids from that then I will be forever grateful.  The reason I defend David Irvine is because he has been working hard to try and achieve that goal for over a decade and he has always been completely honest and transparent, and he has never done it for the money or to try to get rich - unlike most other projects in crypto.

Jabba, i appreciate you a lot, especially because of your username, even if you love trolling me recently, but it is not a problem and i can understand. you know, we refunded many investors for different reasons on our personal funds, we do it for all the users who join on slack. Some was scared regarding the recent events in China, and we refunded them. So yes, people are refunded whenever they ask for it, without even disturbing the escrows, why do you mingle into it, people on safenet have said they want to be refunded, they have been sent private messages, and they have not replied . Ton said he was going to put his own money and not the funds from the crowdsale, in order to spare the development as we withdrawn 9%, not 30% because it's enough for now, for the next milestone.

You should stop saying it's a beast, it's complicated, if you have the skills you can help on simple tasks. As long as we see maidsafe as an endless task, it will never end. There is no problem about the conductor to continue to play, I have nothing against that, he can play without interuption he is not disturbing me at all. But I will explain, it is a developement project, so to do a roadmap you need architecture, and if you can not give me this architecture I can not go ahead, I understand an architecture, But I do not understand random indications given to me.
Imagine I am a contractor specializing in building, an old lady  having problems contacts me to help her. She tells me that the plumbing is broken, I would ask her where is the leak, where are the pipes, she would answer me asking to guess. I say okay, I'll guess their location and try to do some research.
Once it's good, she tells me there's an infiltration in the house, I tell her ok I'll fix it.
She will tell me that she has an electrical problem, I will ask her the electrical plans, she will answer me vaguely remember the indications of her husband ...
I could give many more. Let me say that I repaired all the problems that she indicated to me, leaving the house I take the car to go home, the old lady calls me saying that there was a small earthquake and That her house was destroyed, I her why, and she replie that the pillars were rusty.
Conclusion, everyone would have just lost his time and money trying to repair without taking into account the architectural aspect, and working blindly. We would have simply had to rebuild the house since the start.
It's the same thing in development, especially when you have a beast, it's one more reason to make it architecture to avoid hacks, minimize the bugs ...
Now, I said that one of our members would go to see maidsafe, offer them a global audit, it is normal all companies do it, and afterwards we will judge on what we can start seriously.

[ry474k3]

Will raised bitcoin funds from crowdsale benefit from bitcoin cash fork tomorrow?

[Jabbawa]

If you are building a house you would have an architectural plan, all in one place. If you are building a new settlement you have lots of different plans for lots of different aspects and areas of your settlement, it would not all be contained in one place. You wouldn't have plans and details about your water treatment system in the same place as your political or economic plans.

Anyway, whatever, you've said you'll wait the three months and you've said you will refund any requests (not what was implied on the safe forums), that's as much as I could ask so I have no more beef of any kind here. Well done for doing those things, I think they are the right thing to do.

I wish you luck, I don't think you're a bad guy and don't know if you are an amazing developer or not, but I hope so and I hope the project is a success because the world does need a decent dex.

peace out

[DavidMc0]

Welcome to the forum, are you an investor to say that the investors want to be refunded ?

Thanks for the welcome, even if I've been a member of this forum for about 3 years longer than you have.

Yes I am an investor. As you've said that NVO will offer refunds to investors who want one, can I please request a refund because I've lost all confidence in the NVO team based on the discussion in the MaidSafe forum?

Can you please arrange a refund for my investment of around 0.25 BTC? I can PM details if you're willing to refund me, or should I contact Tonbi, who told people on the MaidSafe forum that he won't offer any more refunds & people should use the counterparty DEX to exit (which is now at a significant loss)?

Please let me know how to get a refund from NVO.

[ry474k3]

Welcome to the forum, are you an investor to say that the investors want to be refunded ?

Thanks for the welcome, even if I've been a member of this forum for about 3 years longer than you have.

Yes I am an investor. As you've said that NVO will offer refunds to investors who want one, can I please request a refund because I've lost all confidence in the NVO team based on the discussion in the MaidSafe forum?

Can you please arrange a refund for my investment of around 0.25 BTC? I can PM details if you're willing to refund me, or should I contact Tonbi, who told people on the MaidSafe forum that he won't offer any more refunds & people should use the counterparty DEX to exit (which is now at a significant loss)?

Please let me know how to get a refund from NVO.

It is impossible to exit using counterparty exchange if you are a large investor.There is no buy support even to maintain the current price which has fallen by almost one third recently.A large exit would deplete the buy book.

[nemgun]

Welcome to the forum, are you an investor to say that the investors want to be refunded ?

Thanks for the welcome, even if I've been a member of this forum for about 3 years longer than you have.

Yes I am an investor. As you've said that NVO will offer refunds to investors who want one, can I please request a refund because I've lost all confidence in the NVO team based on the discussion in the MaidSafe forum?

Can you please arrange a refund for my investment of around 0.25 BTC? I can PM details if you're willing to refund me, or should I contact Tonbi, who told people on the MaidSafe forum that he won't offer any more refunds & people should use the counterparty DEX to exit (which is now at a significant loss)?

Please let me know how to get a refund from NVO.

Could you please join us on slack and transmit it to @marto or @tonbi to confirm it.

Will raised bitcoin funds from crowdsale benefit from bitcoin cash fork tomorrow?

We don't know, i personally support bitcoin core, segwit, however it still doesn't exist and i think it is too early to talk about it.

If you are building a house you would have an architectural plan, all in one place. If you are building a new settlement you have lots of different plans for lots of different aspects and areas of your settlement, it would not all be contained in one place. You wouldn't have plans and details about your water treatment system in the same place as your political or economic plans.

Anyway, whatever, you've said you'll wait the three months and you've said you will refund any requests (not what was implied on the safe forums), that's as much as I could ask so I have no more beef of any kind here. Well done for doing those things, I think they are the right thing to do.

I wish you luck, I don't think you're a bad guy and don't know if you are an amazing developer or not, but I hope so and I hope the project is a success because the world does need a decent dex.

peace out

I thank you for what you said, it has really pleased me. But even to make a beautiful city it takes architecture, even when a president arrives, it has an architecture to set up.
But i really appreciated what you said, apparently you are very rational.
To confirm what I say, the government, the ministers, are only skills, recruited in relation to the main architecture, the president.