quantguy
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February 17, 2014, 09:02:52 AM |
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Which they totally put on ignore  |
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SirWizz
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February 17, 2014, 03:00:25 PM |
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That and technically they haven't missed the ship date yet, though they have said they're going to, and Hashfast was nearly 4 months late from the original ship date and they still haven't fulfilled batch 1 completely. So BA has a long way to fall yet, in spite of the disappointments.  Way to lower the standards, BA and others would LOVE to have more customers like you. |
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drewage
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February 17, 2014, 03:19:12 PM |
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There's no proof for that, but I'm pretty confident that that's how it would go, as well. They want it both ways. (As evidenced in the Hashfast refund issues)
I'm not trying to defend anyone against anything but I think we have a few months to go before we enter Hashfast Territory, in any sense, if at all. Yeah, at least we've got proof of impending tapeout. That and technically they haven't missed the ship date yet, though they have said they're going to, and Hashfast was nearly 4 months late from the original ship date and they still haven't fulfilled batch 1 completely. So BA has a long way to fall yet, in spite of the disappointments. That and technically they haven't missed the ship date yet, though they have said they're going to, and Hashfast was nearly 4 months late from the original ship date and they still haven't fulfilled batch 1 completely. So BA has a long way to fall yet, in spite of the disappointments. Way to lower the standards, BA and others would LOVE to have more customers like you. If you'll notice I'm not cosigning their "bullshit" I'm merely pointing out that they have, as yet, not crossed into Hashfast Territory. Thanks again for reading for comprehension. |
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drewage
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February 17, 2014, 04:24:28 PM |
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That and technically they haven't missed the ship date yet, though they have said they're going to, and Hashfast was nearly 4 months late from the original ship date and they still haven't fulfilled batch 1 completely. So BA has a long way to fall yet, in spite of the disappointments. Way to lower the standards, BA and others would LOVE to have more customers like you. ain't that the truth. I don't know why people are so quick to accept this type of behavior in this industry. I can see thinking there aren't many alternatives, although outright defending it seems tantamount to sticking yourself in the eyeball with a hot poker - and paying for the poker as an added bonus. delays are possible in any tech development effort, however, that is why any company with any experience moves on multiple vectors towards the goal, creating options for potential breakdown of any one of them along the way. just on a quality controlled basis these sorts of efforts require redundancies, normally, and multiple suppliers for any and all components is the norm. That this apparently isn't in place further underscores how nascent this industry is, but it also provides an opportunity for learning. Get your ISO certs, people, for damn sake. until the customers of these people stop just accepting it as some sort of unavoidable pitfall, which it is not, this will continue. people need to wake the hell up and hold these people accountable. the companies themselves need to wake up and demand better of themselves as well, as to this point their performance has been almost uniformly pathetic. , people should temper their expectations regardless of what the vendor says and make a decision based on that. It's not as though the industry doesn't have a track record with this to begin with. If you invest in a mining hardware pre-order without expecting them to be late, very late, you haven't been paying attention. I know that some, few, manufacturers have brought hardware to market without pre-orders but they've been in the minority. Of course, it would be best to patronize them and let the pre-order based concerns starve but there are a lot of people whose greed outweighs their good sense and they continue to try to get the jump on new technology. They will pre-pay for machines and pray that this time will be different. |
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drewage
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February 17, 2014, 05:11:00 PM |
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That and technically they haven't missed the ship date yet, though they have said they're going to, and Hashfast was nearly 4 months late from the original ship date and they still haven't fulfilled batch 1 completely. So BA has a long way to fall yet, in spite of the disappointments. Way to lower the standards, BA and others would LOVE to have more customers like you. ain't that the truth. I don't know why people are so quick to accept this type of behavior in this industry. I can see thinking there aren't many alternatives, although outright defending it seems tantamount to sticking yourself in the eyeball with a hot poker - and paying for the poker as an added bonus. delays are possible in any tech development effort, however, that is why any company with any experience moves on multiple vectors towards the goal, creating options for potential breakdown of any one of them along the way. just on a quality controlled basis these sorts of efforts require redundancies, normally, and multiple suppliers for any and all components is the norm. That this apparently isn't in place further underscores how nascent this industry is, but it also provides an opportunity for learning. Get your ISO certs, people, for damn sake. until the customers of these people stop just accepting it as some sort of unavoidable pitfall, which it is not, this will continue. people need to wake the hell up and hold these people accountable. the companies themselves need to wake up and demand better of themselves as well, as to this point their performance has been almost uniformly pathetic. , people should temper their expectations regardless of what the vendor says and make a decision based on that. It's not as though the industry doesn't have a track record with this to begin with. If you invest in a mining hardware pre-order without expecting them to be late, very late, you haven't been paying attention. I know that some, few, manufacturers have brought hardware to market without pre-orders but they've been in the minority. Of course, it would be best to patronize them and let the pre-order based concerns starve but there are a lot of people whose greed outweighs their good sense and they continue to try to get the jump on new technology. They will pre-pay for machines and pray that this time will be different. I think you're missing my point. it will continue unless people demand better. that's the market. as long as they're allowed to blow this off they have no reason to change. why spend the extra money on anything if they can just walk off with people's money either way? as consumers it is our job to demand better of them, not simply shrug our shoulders and take the reaming, time and time again. I know they can do better and I also know they won't bother until forced to do so. the only way to get some change is to ask for it. simply chalking it up as par for the course pretty much guarantees nothing will improve and there will continue to be no accountability. if that's what you'd like to do, that's your business, of course. everyone is free to make their own choices, naturally. when they've got my money, and they're screwing me, they're going to hear about it. that's my choice. No, I get it and you're right. WE should be spending our btc/fiat with companies that have product in hand to sell. Simply put, don't buy pre-orders, FULL STOP. |
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drewage
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February 17, 2014, 06:23:14 PM |
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Yep. If they want people's money to play with with these pre-orders they have to offer compensation that equals the loss in the event their dates end up being so much smoke on the wind.
if they hold up their end they get interest free financing and their customers benefit with new hardware that gives them an advantage. if they don't hold up their end they pony up to an extent that makes it a wash for their customers.
without that, or something like it, you're absolutely right, these pre-orders are a losing game for the customer.
Really though, we just shouldn't be doing business with them unless they have product in hand. Exhibit #1: Hashfast and their MPP. They are late on shipping the product and if they ship the MPP it'll be too little, too late. Taken as a hypothetical, the idea that any level of compensation, that wouldn't bankrupt the company and screw customers in the process, would be sufficient given the growth rate of difficulty is a pipe dream. The only real way to prevent problems with pre-orders is not to place them. |
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raskul
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February 17, 2014, 06:30:11 PM |
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Yep. If they want people's money to play with with these pre-orders they have to offer compensation that equals the loss in the event their dates end up being so much smoke on the wind.
if they hold up their end they get interest free financing and their customers benefit with new hardware that gives them an advantage. if they don't hold up their end they pony up to an extent that makes it a wash for their customers.
without that, or something like it, you're absolutely right, these pre-orders are a losing game for the customer.
Really though, we just shouldn't be doing business with them unless they have product in hand. Exhibit #1: Hashfast and their MPP. They are late on shipping the product and if they ship the MPP it'll be too little, too late. Taken as a hypothetical, the idea that any level of compensation, that wouldn't bankrupt the company and screw customers in the process, would be sufficient given the growth rate of difficulty is a pipe dream. The only real way to prevent problems with pre-orders is not to place them. perhaps this is a lesson learnt too late.  |
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Bluebark
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February 18, 2014, 12:49:45 AM |
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Personally, I think if they had hit their mark during pre-fab stress tests...we would be mining with new rigs by 2nd week March. Where's the Kool-Aid... |
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CryptoGuy
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February 18, 2014, 05:30:54 AM |
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Everyone is forgetting the key ingredient here, this is gambling. There are a lot of people out there that will try and play the odds on the chance they'll get that big payout. You'll never get everyone to stop buying pre-orders because of this and thus the cycle will continue.
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<Insert favorite coin here>
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Biomech
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Anarchy is not chaos.
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February 18, 2014, 06:03:04 AM |
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Everyone is forgetting the key ingredient here, this is gambling. There are a lot of people out there that will try and play the odds on the chance they'll get that big payout. You'll never get everyone to stop buying pre-orders because of this and thus the cycle will continue.
Not everyone. It's why I haven't really chimed in on that. I think pre-orders have run their course as far as utility to the miner goes, but for the companies? Even if they are totally honest and transparent, it's still a risk free environment for them. They get start up funds without paying interest or dividends, and they can screw up royally (without intent) and suffer little to no penalty. Then there are the straight up scams. I will not pre-order unless the company is already producing and it's simply an "assemble on demand" sort of pre-order where the wait time is known and enforceable. And I'm a gambler! |
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Teodor
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February 18, 2014, 01:55:26 PM |
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Does anyone have received any of these machines or we just talk about something that does not exist?? ... And probably will never be, or will come too late...
Thanks!
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Teodor
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February 18, 2014, 02:01:58 PM |
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Even if they are totally honest and transparent, it's still a risk free environment for them. They get start up funds without paying interest or dividends, and they can screw up royally (without intent) and suffer little to no penalty.
Then there are the straight up scams.
I will not pre-order unless the company is already producing and it's simply an "assemble on demand" sort of pre-order where the wait time is known and enforceable. And I'm a gambler!
I am sorry but this might take an eternity as nobody knows if and when these machines will arrive... However, we talk about China which is full of 180 and 200 ghs machines now!! But the prices are very high and the risk is never to recover the investment. This is what happened to me... so the dilema is still higher: TO BUY OR NOT TO BUY MINING RIGS!? |
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mboehler
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February 18, 2014, 03:43:39 PM |
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Buying a Bitcoin miner is a risky endeavor. I was going to call it an investment, but it is not necessarily. There is no guarantee you will make back the money you spent on the miner, much less turn a profit.
There are too many IF's...
IF the company is Legit
IF the miner is produced on time
IF the miner ends up being the speed advertised
IF the miner ends up using the power advertised
IF difficultly doesn't rise too much
IF the miner works consistently and doesn't have to be sent back.
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It's obviously a huge gamble. People who are not comfortable gambling should NOT BUY A BITCOIN MINER.
Just buy bitcoins instead. Yes, it's still risky, but less so. If you buy bitcoins, you don't have to worry about all the IF's above. You really only need to worry about whether they will increase or decrease in price over the long run.
That said, I do mine bitcoins. I am comfortable losing the amount of money I put into mining. For me, mining is enjoyable. It's like entertainment, and it feels good to know that I am contributing to this amazing system.
I also buy and hold bitcoins. I believe they will increase in value over the coming years. I'm not relying on that though. Bitcoin could tank and I would lose what I put in. I am okay with that. I don't put in more than I can afford to lose.
This is not an endorsement for the way the current system works. It's simply some friendly advice for those who think they might be interested in buying or pre-ordering mining equipment. Be prepared to lose what you put in.
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breakingcode
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February 18, 2014, 04:17:31 PM |
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Yep. If they want people's money to play with with these pre-orders they have to offer compensation that equals the loss in the event their dates end up being so much smoke on the wind.
if they hold up their end they get interest free financing and their customers benefit with new hardware that gives them an advantage. if they don't hold up their end they pony up to an extent that makes it a wash for their customers.
without that, or something like it, you're absolutely right, these pre-orders are a losing game for the customer.
Really though, we just shouldn't be doing business with them unless they have product in hand. Exhibit #1: Hashfast and their MPP. They are late on shipping the product and if they ship the MPP it'll be too little, too late. Taken as a hypothetical, the idea that any level of compensation, that wouldn't bankrupt the company and screw customers in the process, would be sufficient given the growth rate of difficulty is a pipe dream. The only real way to prevent problems with pre-orders is not to place them. That or they should do a kickstarter type deal where they flat out tell you, "Give us money, you're buying into our dream, you're funding our startup, when/if we make money you'll get a bigger kickback than regular Joe retail, also we'll give you a BA shirt that you can either wear with pride or wear with a sense of irony depending on how things shake out. We may soar, or we may crash and burn, but now you know." I kind of assumed that anyway (based on the industry and the pre-order setup) but it would be a nice up front warning for all the people (and based on these forums there's a ton of them) that don't know that going in. |
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drinkmorecoffee
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February 18, 2014, 04:40:28 PM |
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That or they should do a kickstarter type deal where they flat out tell you, "Give us money, you're buying into our dream, you're funding our startup, when/if we make money you'll get a bigger kickback than regular Joe retail, also we'll give you a BA shirt that you can either wear with pride or wear with a sense of irony depending on how things shake out. We may soar, or we may crash and burn, but now you know."
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If I ever do a Kickstarter I'm stealing this line. |
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Starlightbreaker
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February 18, 2014, 05:44:55 PM
Last edit: September 17, 2016, 09:46:02 PM by Starlightbreaker |
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Hi guys, does anyone know how to request a refund from Minersource.com?
Send them an email. Then wait for the reply from "Starter Kit" Carson.  a week and so later.... still no reply. ha. |
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mboehler
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February 18, 2014, 06:11:02 PM |
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I decided to test market opinion of BA and see how the market currently views the price and image of BA by listing one of my units for sell in the good section. I have very good rep and believe that anyone would have full confidence that I would hold up my end of a deal, so any offers would be considered solely market view of BA. After more than 24 hours I have not had a single offer or inquiry on my offer. I even included the compensation package as part of the deal, and still no one seems to want it. I did not put a price up, but instead asked for offers for my device. So what does this tell us? Well I will let everyone form their own opinion, but I have come up with 2 options...
1) There is no market for the BA device, which is sad because we are still over 2 months away from it being launched or,
2) No one has faith that BA will deliver.
In either case I would say the outcome is not good, so I reiterate my question, how are refunds going to be handled?
I don't read the Goods section, but what are you selling? If it's an X-1, and you can get Black Arrow to transfer it to me, then I would be interested. I can't afford an X-3 right now though. |
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mboehler
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February 18, 2014, 07:04:44 PM
Last edit: February 18, 2014, 07:21:16 PM by mboehler |
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I decided to test market opinion of BA and see how the market currently views the price and image of BA by listing one of my units for sell in the good section. I have very good rep and believe that anyone would have full confidence that I would hold up my end of a deal, so any offers would be considered solely market view of BA. After more than 24 hours I have not had a single offer or inquiry on my offer. I even included the compensation package as part of the deal, and still no one seems to want it. I did not put a price up, but instead asked for offers for my device. So what does this tell us? Well I will let everyone form their own opinion, but I have come up with 2 options...
1) There is no market for the BA device, which is sad because we are still over 2 months away from it being launched or,
2) No one has faith that BA will deliver.
In either case I would say the outcome is not good, so I reiterate my question, how are refunds going to be handled?
I don't read the Goods section, but what are you selling? If it's an X-1, and you can get Black Arrow to transfer it to me, then I would be interested. I can't afford an X-3 right now though. Its actually an X-3, but I have an X-1, time to find out what its worth. Make me an offer on it... I imagine I could offer you the amount that you paid in BTC for it originally. If you bought it in November, I imagine it would have been about 3.5 0.35 bitcoins. Of course I don't know when you bought it. Do you think that's a fair price? EDIT: Typo above. 3.5 should have been 0.35 bitcoins. |
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raskul
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February 18, 2014, 07:28:56 PM |
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I decided to test market opinion of BA and see how the market currently views the price and image of BA by listing one of my units for sell in the good section. I have very good rep and believe that anyone would have full confidence that I would hold up my end of a deal, so any offers would be considered solely market view of BA. After more than 24 hours I have not had a single offer or inquiry on my offer. I even included the compensation package as part of the deal, and still no one seems to want it. I did not put a price up, but instead asked for offers for my device. So what does this tell us? Well I will let everyone form their own opinion, but I have come up with 2 options...
1) There is no market for the BA device, which is sad because we are still over 2 months away from it being launched or,
2) No one has faith that BA will deliver.
In either case I would say the outcome is not good, so I reiterate my question, how are refunds going to be handled?
I don't read the Goods section, but what are you selling? If it's an X-1, and you can get Black Arrow to transfer it to me, then I would be interested. I can't afford an X-3 right now though. Its actually an X-3, but I have an X-1, time to find out what its worth. Make me an offer on it... I imagine I could offer you the amount that you paid in BTC for it originally. If you bought it in November, I imagine it would have been about 3.5 bitcoins. Of course I don't know when you bought it. Do you think that's a fair price? Don't forget, there's a 0% quadruple-vetted reseller fee that I'm entitled to due to bringing you two together. ... when it ships |
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PurpleDino
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February 18, 2014, 09:38:26 PM |
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I would also like an update on where we are at with hiring that dedicated PR person? Almost every question I have asked has been ignored in the last couple of weeks, so I pose the refund question again...
Nostradamus (ya really!) has predicted that the reply (if there ever is one) is one of the following: a) The PR guy has taken sick and/or declined the job offer b) The PR guy is away celebrating the Schamayan New Year c) The PR guy has been hired and is in training, which will take a few daeeks (great stalling option) d) The PR guy is actually a PR girl Please note that the option that a PR person has or will not be hired is not available. |
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