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Author Topic: Economic Devastation  (Read 504742 times)
RealBitcoin
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August 11, 2015, 09:47:09 AM
 #1781

Well you have...

Yea but c`mon we live in the 21 century, we transcended already our lack-of-technology based cultural/human needs.

In my country 60% of the farmland is left empty, because the government doesn't want to privatize. Instead of privatizing it, they just let it state property and not use it.


Clean Capitalism is the only tool that can save us. With an efficient stock market (not even bank loans are needed,or minimal loans, but certainly no central bank) and a free economy, you can get instant investments in farming and resolve the world hunger in like 5 years.

With massive subsidy, border controls, capital controls, and nasty money printing policies you only drive economy into the pitfall.

Socialists are the reason why the economy is so backwarded, everything is controlled and subsidized, even the crap job.


Only the government can run a bankrupt company for 10 years, the case in my country with the railways, a private company has to reform its business or face material losses.

The government just simply raises the taxes. It's inefficient, horrible, and non-productive.

So you guys cry about Greece, Puerto Rico, Chicago and Detroit being bankrupt? What if I tell you that:

Every state owned company is insolvent everywhere in the world, because the state is the only entity that can run a failed business perpetually.

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August 11, 2015, 09:53:11 AM
 #1782

Yea but c`mon we live in the 21 century, we transcended already our lack-of-technology based cultural/human needs.

You are missing the point of the cultural legacy gradually feeds into what we have now.

The root of what you see now derives from history of the culture.

Go study the fertility map on Europe and you will see it nearly mirrors the historic Hajnal line, with France the exception due to learning how to use socialism to steal from employers to give women the right to work when they are the worst candidate for the job.

I think you really didn't study all my links and think deeply.

You can stop the huge red text please. It is annoying. CoinCube and I started this thread, and I don't appeciate you thinking you can just shout your opinions in huge red text. Please act civil.

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August 11, 2015, 10:27:27 PM
Last edit: August 11, 2015, 10:39:31 PM by username18333
 #1783

Yep, socialism is a collective of lazy thieves that like to steal from more productive others.

Potential owners are deprived of actual ownership in that same manner possible states of a particle (herein, a quantum mechanical “probability wave”) are denied realization upon the collapse (here, quantum mechanical) of that particle.

It would seem, therefore, that both any and every economic system that features possession and “product[ion]” (RealBitcoin) is, therefor, a “socialism” (RealBitcoin).

Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 11, 2015, 10:35:28 PM
 #1784

In my country [sixty percent] of the farmland is left empty, because the government doesn't want to privatize. Instead of privatizing it, they just let it state property and not use it.

If the supply of food increased (and the demand therefor remained unchanged) then food prices would decrease. I would, both therefore and for the report cited above, imagine “Big-Agra” (i.e., plutocrats) are responsible for “the lion’s share” of “food production” “n [your] country” (RealBitcoin).

Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 12, 2015, 06:54:29 AM
 #1785

In my country [sixty percent] of the farmland is left empty, because the government doesn't want to privatize. Instead of privatizing it, they just let it state property and not use it.

If the supply of food increased (and the demand therefor remained unchanged) then food prices would decrease. I would, both therefore and for the report cited above, imagine “Big-Agra” (i.e., plutocrats) are responsible for “the lion’s share” of “food production” “n [your] country” (RealBitcoin).

They already are, they are renting out the government farmlands, and working on that.

However the rest of it is left untouched, which is a waste of natural resources.

If food prices are low now, it could be double lower, if more farmland were used.

Also the rented farmland is a stupidity, they pay rent to the gov so that they can work on it, but that only drives prices up.

If they would sell the land to them, then they would not have to pay rent and they could sell the food on even lower prices.

The rent that the gov collects will anyway go to corruption, as we all know 95% of the taxes is wasted on bureocracy and corruption and only 5% is distributed efficiently.

This is the big waste what socialism gives to us.

Yep, socialism is a collective of lazy thieves that like to steal from more productive others.

Potential owners are deprived of actual ownership in that same manner possible states of a particle (herein, a quantum mechanical “probability wave”) are denied realization upon the collapse (here, quantum mechanical) of that particle.

It would seem, therefore, that both any and every economic system that features possession and “product[ion]” (RealBitcoin) is, therefor, a “socialism” (RealBitcoin).

Alright but whatever you prove here that private property is not a real phenomenon, we still need to work around it.

See without a system where private property is admitted, we would all be lazy thieves dieing of hunger.


Why would a farmer waste 1-2 years of his life to work on the crops, if he knows that the farmland is not his land and anytime thieves will gang on him and steal all his products. Private property is the sign of civilization, weather you like it or not.

You just cannot have a civilization with big projects like skyscrapers, and massive projects, without the notion of private property. Because private property gives you relative certainty in an uncertain world.

Private property also comes with self defence, and other important rights.

These socialists think they can manage 7 billion people, and eliminate greed and envy from them, which is obviously impossible. Thats why we live in this shit world as we live in now.

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August 12, 2015, 11:10:19 PM
 #1786

The rent that the gov collects will anyway go to [plutocracy], as we all know 95% of the taxes is wasted on bureocracy and [plutocracy] and only 5% is distributed efficiently.

This is the big waste what [plutocracy] gives to us.

(Had you posted the above...)


See without a system where private property is admitted, we would all be lazy thieves dieing of hunger.

For "theft" (RealBitcoin ) to exist, "private property" (RealBitcoin) must also exist. Your hypothetical, however, does not admit "private property"; therefore, the argument cited above (immediately) is absurd.


Why would a farmer waste 1-2 years of his life to work on the crops, if he knows that the farmland is not his land and anytime thieves will gang on him and steal all his products.

For what reason would the ruler of a fiefdom (or any other violence monopolist) allow a peasant to own land?


Private property is the sign of civilization, weather you like it or not.

Art is the greatest "sign of civilization" (RealBitcoin) bar none.


You just cannot have a civilization with big projects like skyscrapers, and massive projects, without the notion of private property. Because private property gives you relative certainty in an uncertain world.

Individuals have no need of "skyscrapers[] and massive projects" (RealBitcoin). Therefore, one does not contribute to the construction of these for, directly, the sake itself.


Private property also comes with self defence, and other important rights.

"[R]ights" (RealBitcoin) are legal constructs and, thus, are arbitrary without an appeal to an external source of non-arbitrariness.


These [plutocrats] think they can manage [seven] billion people, and eliminate greed and envy from them, which is obviously impossible. Thats why we live in this shit world as we live in now.

"[Non-plutocrats] live in this [mediocre] world as [non-plutocrats] live in now" (RealBitcoin) because these reside under "government by the wealthy" (Merriam-Webster).

Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 12, 2015, 11:17:35 PM
 #1787

Yep, socialism is a collective of lazy thieves that like to steal from more productive others.

Potential owners are deprived of actual ownership in that same manner possible states of a particle (herein, a quantum mechanical “probability wave”) are denied realization upon the collapse (here, quantum mechanical) of that particle.

It would seem, therefore, that both any and every economic system that features possession and “product[ion]” (RealBitcoin) is, therefor, a “socialism” (RealBitcoin).

Sounds about right though.

The form of socialism I saw in 2008 financial banking crisis was the banks getting a bail out thats pretty much socialism to its max.

True form of capitalism would be letting it fail.
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August 13, 2015, 02:18:49 AM
 #1788

...

Miss Fortune

In retrospect, I agree.

But, 2008 was a very scary time.  NO ONE knew what would happen.  Many of us (my self included) were very worried.

And as N. N. Taleb explains (in his masterpiece books The Black Swan and Antifragile), it is impossible to really look at the past and what might happen after certain decisions going into the future.  Like putting the milk spill back into the glass the way it was before...
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August 13, 2015, 09:50:13 AM
 #1789

The rent that the gov collects will anyway go to [plutocracy], as we all know 95% of the taxes is wasted on bureocracy and [plutocracy] and only 5% is distributed efficiently.

This is the big waste what [plutocracy] gives to us.

I dont think its pure oligarchy, as pure oligarchy would be business oriented, while this system is more theft oriented and pleasing the masses.

Its about a mixture of socialists in the lower ranks, and ultra rich in the higher ranks. At best I would call it socialist oligarchy.

Most of the taxes don't go directly to the wealthy, they get absorbed by low level minion politicians and the inefficient local corrupt bribed ones, or just simple go wasted on unnecessary projects

(Hence the 2004 Athens olympics which led to the construction of enormous stadiums , from an already low budget, for some stupid games, which then led to the whole country go bankrupt few years later.)

For "theft" (RealBitcoin ) to exist, "private property" (RealBitcoin) must also exist. Your hypothetical, however, does not admit "private property"; therefore, the argument cited above (immediately) is absurd.



Yea but we have to adhere to concepts even if they dont exist in real world. I could say that you don't exist because you are just a collection of cells, and you don't exist as a human.

But we know that in reality we can interpret things that are not necessarly real, but they help our every day lives and association with nature.

Thus private property, however you put it, is valid, and it's a civilized way to organize humanity.

(Unless you wanna go back to hunter gathering communities, which I don't)


For what reason would the ruler of a fiefdom (or any other violence monopolist) allow a peasant to own land?

Because even a vicous ruler realizes that the longterm benefits overwegith the short one. It's immediate profit if you rob a farm owner of all his crops.
But if you rob him only 1% every year, you get more from him long term, plus he wont rebell against you.

Of course the ruler of the fiefdom only maintains his power over the vassal with force, however if the farm owner would own the land he must also protect it. Thus the monopoly of force wouldn't change, but it would transfer from illegitimate owner, to legitimate owner, and thus decentralize power.

Capitalism doesn't eliminate force, it just decentralizes it.

You know "with great power comes great responsibility", but nobody with great power has responsibility, thus nobody should have great power.


Art is the greatest "sign of civilization" (RealBitcoin) bar none.

Art like gladiator slaves fighting in a colosseum? That was art once.

While with private property, and some morals mixed in (slave owners are not capitalists who own property, they are criminals, because humans cannot be property according to some moral principles)



Individuals have no need of "skyscrapers[] and massive projects" (RealBitcoin). Therefore, one does not contribute to the construction of these for, directly, the sake itself.

Yes they do because some level or organization is always needed in society. But on their own they cannot achieve that, so it becomes a group effort.
The same way , I cannot build a car alone, i need other people's help, and I`ll pay for it.

Distribution of labour is also a sign of civilization, which moved us away from primitive hunter gatherer society.

And only capitalism and free market can distribute labour efficiently.

The printing money scheme allocates resources very poorly, mostly into the elite hands, what would never happen in a free market enviroment.



"[R]ights" (RealBitcoin) are legal constructs and, thus, are arbitrary without an appeal to an external source of non-arbitrariness.

Thats why judges exist that define the limits of the rights and obligations. Of course with the advent of blockchain technologies, arbitrariness becomes less and less necessary, and things become more and more well-defined.

EX: Private property = Your own thoughts (which is obviously private) containing your private key (which nobody knows about it) = Material posession in the external world in the form of bitcoins.

I dont think the world can be defined with bayesian point of view ever. It's not like we will replace human judges with an AI or something, but if the corruption in the justice system becomes too big, it might come a day when we will be forced to.



"[Non-plutocrats] live in this [mediocre] world as [non-plutocrats] live in now" (RealBitcoin) because these reside under "government by the wealthy" (Merriam-Webster).

Thats not all true, I say again, the top 0.001% elite hardly governs actively, they are more passive governing, and only care about their money, and less about population politics. Which could intersect at some levels, but they rarely do.

Most banks are occupied with giving out credits and financial services to multiply their wealths.

While the real governors, are usually rich, but below 1 billion $, a politician might collect a few million $ if he is in the game for longer period, but you hardly see politicians with 1 billion $.

Thus the politicians who directly make the laws (where small % of the laws were ordered by their puppet masters, and large % of the laws are made by their own wishes or the wishes of their voters) are responsible for the problems caused in the economy.

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August 13, 2015, 10:17:07 AM
 #1790

...

Miss Fortune

In retrospect, I agree.

But, 2008 was a very scary time.  NO ONE knew what would happen.  Many of us (my self included) were very worried.

And as N. N. Taleb explains (in his masterpiece books The Black Swan and Antifragile), it is impossible to really look at the past and what might happen after certain decisions going into the future.  Like putting the milk spill back into the glass the way it was before...

A lot of statistics tell us the real devastation is near.
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August 13, 2015, 08:18:08 PM
Last edit: August 13, 2015, 10:10:00 PM by username18333
 #1791

I maintain that the real cannot be known (and vice versa). Your argumentation, however, presumes that discourse could pertain to the real. We shall now, therefore, debate, indirectly, the in-/validity of philosophical realism.


I dont think its pure oligarchy, as pure oligarchy would be business oriented, while this system is more theft oriented and pleasing the masses.

(Conception deprives one of that which accompanies antithetical-thereto non-conception.)

Quote from: Martin Gilens, Benjamin I. Page. "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens." _Perspectives on Politics_ (2014). 576. Web. 22 July 2015.
What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.

Plutocracy (which is not, necessarily, oligarchy) "would [not] be business oriented" (RealBitcoin), for "business" (RealBitcoin) is competitive and would, necessarily, jeporadize the political status of a plutocrat (which derives authority from wealth).


Yea but we have to adhere to concepts even if they dont exist in real world. I could say that you don't exist because you are just a collection of cells, and you don't exist as a human.

If one should discuss it, it should prove non-veridical. It should also, however, persist within its conception.


Because even a vicous ruler realizes that the longterm benefits overwegith the short one. It's immediate profit if you rob a farm owner of all his crops.
But if you rob him only 1% every year, you get more from him long term, plus he wont rebell against you.

If the farmer could so "rebell " (RealBitcoin) the "ruler" (username18333) would not be a "violence monopolist" (username18333) (emphasis added).


Art like gladiator slaves fighting in a colosseum? That was art once.

Not only do trees not combat each other "in a colosseum" (RealBitcoin), but even bonobos do not do that.


Yes they do because some level or organization is always needed in society.

A "need[]" (RealBitcoin) for food does not equate to the like for caviar. Likewise, "some level or organization is always needed in society" (RealBitcoin) "does not equate to the like for" (username18333) "skyscrapers[] and massive projects" (RealBitcoin).


Thats why judges exist that define the limits of the rights and obligations. Of course with the advent of blockchain technologies, arbitrariness becomes less and less necessary, and things become more and more well-defined.

Knowledge is contrived, and the contrived is arbitrary categorically; therefore, both any and every constituent thereof is so arbitrary.


Thats not all true, I say again, the top 0.001% elite hardly governs actively, they are more passive governing, and only care about their money, and less about population politics. Which could intersect at some levels, but they rarely do.

National governments affect states and provinces without also being state and provincial governments (respectively). An international government, therefore, could affect nations "without also being" (username18333) a national government.

Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 15, 2015, 04:47:00 AM
 #1792

I use bitcoin because I want to earn anonymously online. It's also a good investment and I like low transaction fees of bitcoin

I love you because I am formerly AnonyMint and since 2013 my goal has been to add more anonymity to cryptoland. Thanks for validating my thesis about a coming glorious, anonymous Knowledge Age.

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August 15, 2015, 05:24:07 AM
 #1793

Philosophical hyperrealism is a contrapositive of epistemological nihilism: epistemological nihilism asserts "no [extant] thing is knowable"; philosophical hyperrealism asserts "[every extant thing] is unknowable."

Dualism is I think the more accurate term similar to the concept of covariance vs. contravariance in the Liskov Substitution Principle or inductive vs. co-inductive structures in math and logic.

For example in Haskell, the top of all of the types is _|_ (Bottom, i.e. it is all types simultaneously!) whereas in most computer languages the top of all types is Any (it can be any type), i.e. when you cast to (void *) in C.

To express infinity in an inductive representation, you have a starting point and you enumerate an inductive operation from each point to create another point, e.g. the natural numbers are the recurrence relation:

nat = nat + 0

To express infinity in a co-inductive representation, there is an unknown ending point (that is never reached) and a function to return another point of the series. For example streams in computer science are co-inductive. You open a handle to the I/O streams and read input from it until you receive an EOF (end of file).

We hyperrealists say that we can have things, but we don't assert that we have complete control over them and we view the world as an inductive conjunction of global and local entropy. You nihilists say that we don't have any things.

So this is why you think all our efforts are in vain. But I hope you've just realized that it is just a dualism and thus you are neither more correct than we are (and vice versa). And thus the debate between you and RealBitcoin in the Economic Devastation thread about the importance of property rights.

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August 15, 2015, 06:51:40 AM
 #1794

Similar employers?  Tongue

Haha yeah "we the socialist people".

He always spins the concepts in support of his "we are all in this together" and thus his proposed socialistic "solutions".

I am of course fiercely for individualism and anonymous (autonomous) commerce and end of the State.

No way I could join the banksters and investment moguls. I want to destroy their paradigm. I want to make it irrelevant to accumulate large amounts of capital. I want to make money have a high slope of declining marginal utility. In other words, more money than you can actively invest in your Knowledge Age production, will become worthless to you in a zero margin tangible world (manufactured products will be nearly free).

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August 15, 2015, 06:07:39 PM
 #1795


This chart is so sad. What happen in the past that now we have so low compensation for increased productivity? World supposed to be evolving, not devolving.
Exactly this problem is touching every major economy. And China is trying to keep it that way.

Let's fight back and win.

I use bitcoin because I want to earn anonymously online. It's also a good investment and I like low transaction fees of bitcoin

I love you because I am formerly AnonyMint and since 2013 my goal has been to add more anonymity to cryptoland. Thanks for validating my thesis about a coming glorious, anonymous Knowledge Age.

What I see people essentially saying in this thread is that Bitcoin is autonomous. They can get access to it, spend as anonymously as they take the care to obscure their IP address, and use it without any permission or without obtaining any account with some authority. In short, permission-less commerce (do what you like, no big brother with his dick up your ass!). Most of the terms above fall under the "autonomy" umbrella taxonomy.

In my case, I don't have a utility bill matching my current address because I rent. And so I can't comply with the asinine Patriot Act KYC identification requirements that exchanges and financial institutions impose. So no worries, I just go place a buy order on localbitcoins, then go deposit some cash in a local bank and I get the BTC released an hour or so later.

Later as the bankrupted Western governments start to limit more how much money you can get out per day from your ATM account (e.g. Greece is an example of what is coming to every Western nation because they are all broke), then if you are holding crypto-currency you can sidestep these restrictions.

However, do note that Bitcoin is not reliably anonymous (unless you are for example connecting via a unregistered, public WiFi connection) as your IP address can be traced back to your identity (and Tor and I2P don't really stop the national security agencies from tracking your identity on the block chain) and so the authorities will one day in the future be clawing back against you prosecuting you for violating their regulations by using Bitcoin.

This is why I (formerly username AnonyMint since 2013) support the development of altcoins with more robust built in anonymity. Many users will not appreciate the need for this until later when so many Bitcoin users are being busted for past activity all stored on the block chain.

You should understand what this productivity is made of. If we substitute one group of machines with more productive ones, why should the increase in productivity be reflected in the increase in wages?

Because knowledge creation is where all the value is added. The manufacturing is headed towards a zero margin economy.

But knowledge creation is not the same as non-supervisory compensation, right?

Agree. Knowledge creation is being held back to some extent by a $227 trillion global debt funded socialism turning into totalitarianism as a way to prevent adjustment from the Industrial Age and force an NWO eugenics outcome so the old world fat cats can retain power, because the Knowledge Age can't be financed with usury so those bastards are trying to kill it, but they will fail.

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August 15, 2015, 07:17:05 PM
 #1796





Let's fight back and win.


Ok but i dont know which one of you is the socialist, but do you guys realize that socialism will only worsten that labour compensation problem.


I am a 100% hardcore pure capitalist, and I also agree that people work more and more and earn less and less, but socialism will only make things worse.


The root cause of this issue is the money printing mechanism / overregulation. If you could liberate the economy and end money counterfeiting, then I guarantee you the chart would look like this in a few years:






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August 15, 2015, 08:34:22 PM
Last edit: August 15, 2015, 08:52:49 PM by username18333
 #1797

I am a 100% hardcore pure capitalist, and I also agree that people work more and more and earn less and less, but socialism will only make things worse.


"There are two types of [earthly governments]": plutocracies either heterarchical or hierarchical.



Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 15, 2015, 10:57:38 PM
 #1798


During the lost era where physical trade was the economy, precious metals represented physical value.

No one is measuring knowledge value in units of precious metals.

Gold simply does not back anything any more because it no longer correlates to the intangible knowledge that is valuable in an era where knowledge moves the economy.

Back your lost era, knowledge was less important than land ownership, number of head of cattle, etc..

Also we are in era where digital reach is ubiquitous geographically, thus there is no place to hide from the fact that governments want to be able to tax and physical gold as untraceable cash would prevent them from doing so. Thus governments will fight gold as cash and besides for the reasons I stated above, gold is not a representation of value any more in the knowledge age.

Gold is hanging on because the physical industrial age is not quite dead yet. But gold is fading fast.

The physical economy is fading away in relative value (relative to knowledge creation value). It won't too long from now that physically manufactured items will be nearly free.

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August 15, 2015, 11:01:40 PM
 #1799

"There are two types of [earthly governments]": plutocracies either heterarchical or hierarchical.

There is also the dictatorial rule, which is not necessarly plutocratic(feudal, noble republic ancestors) , based on the absolute rule of 1 individual or a small group of individuals. This differs from plutocracy in the sense that it's not wealth oriented, it's power oriented, absolute domination (soviet union ,etc.)

I`d prefer a decentralized capitalism model, where everyone could have enough money to prosper, but not enough money to subjugate his fellow men. And since the majority of people would have equal wealth and the rich would be only richer by x50 or maybe x100 but not by x100000000 as it is now, so the income and wealth gap would be smaller.

If wealth would be correctly distributed, by merit of each individual (and not by blindless socialist redistribution which goes to the most unproductive), is by definition a free market capitalism.

Since what other (financial) merit can a person have other than run a succesful business and become rich?

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August 15, 2015, 11:02:00 PM
 #1800

It won't too long from now that physically manufactured items will be nearly free.

This is already true. Look you can go into a dollar store (or other efficient distributor) and buy thousands of manufactured items that used to have 1+ orders of magnitude higher cost. Conversely I can not think of a single manufactured item that is an order of magnitude more expensive than it used to be. Not even one.

This is only not glaringly obvious due to the (reverse?) boiled frog effect.
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