Economic Devastation

[RealBitcoin]

So you guys are saying we should not have taxation because it is costly, hard to manage, and inneficient (and also an extortion based theft scheme).

However we should have inflation only to fund public programs.



But then if we have only printed money to fund public programs, people will avoid using inflated currency, because they will realize that they are robbed, but just in a different way.

People will just keep their money then in precious metals and bitcoin to avoid inflation.



SO then you guys quickly realize that both inflation and taxes are a robbery, and we should have neither.

[OROBTC]

So you guys are saying we should not have taxation because it is costly, hard to manage, and inneficient (and also an extortion based theft scheme).

However we should have inflation only to fund public programs.



But then if we have only printed money to fund public programs, people will avoid using inflated currency, because they will realize that they are robbed, but just in a different way.

People will just keep their money then in precious metals and bitcoin to avoid inflation.



SO then you guys quickly realize that both inflation and taxes are a robbery, and we should have neither.

My thoughts on taxation. 

I like the idea of the "Voluntary Taxes", that would be mostly a National Sales Tax.  Say slap 15% sales tax on EVERYTHING that is bought (at retail).  And enforce it.  No exceptions for food, housing, etc.  A National Sales Tax would be less complex that than a European-style VAT.

I do not like property taxes, but I could live with them as long as the taxes are fixed at a reasonable rate.  Real Estate can't be moved, so perhaps there IS a case for taxing it.

An argument could be made for a small percentage tax on financial transactions.  A payroll tax (Social Security) maybe, but the experience to date is bad, .gov has already spent the money received in S.S. taxes, that's why it and MediCare are in such trouble, they already spent the money!

BUT,

Above three taxes ASSUME eliminating the Income Tax and all other kinds of taxes where the government noses around in bank accounts, etc.  Government has no business peaking into my personal affairs.  Invites corruption too...

*  *  *

Inflation is basically a tax on the poor.  And it's sneaky, probably morally very wrong.  But, easy to impose.  Ugh.

[Yakamoto]

So you guys are saying we should not have taxation because it is costly, hard to manage, and inneficient (and also an extortion based theft scheme).

However we should have inflation only to fund public programs.



But then if we have only printed money to fund public programs, people will avoid using inflated currency, because they will realize that they are robbed, but just in a different way.

People will just keep their money then in precious metals and bitcoin to avoid inflation.



SO then you guys quickly realize that both inflation and taxes are a robbery, and we should have neither.

My thoughts on taxation. 

I like the idea of the "Voluntary Taxes", that would be mostly a National Sales Tax.  Say slap 15% sales tax on EVERYTHING that is bought (at retail).  And enforce it.  No exceptions for food, housing, etc.  A National Sales Tax would be less complex that than a European-style VAT.

I do not like property taxes, but I could live with them as long as the taxes are fixed at a reasonable rate.  Real Estate can't be moved, so perhaps there IS a case for taxing it.

An argument could be made for a small percentage tax on financial transactions.  A payroll tax (Social Security) maybe, but the experience to date is bad, .gov has already spent the money received in S.S. taxes, that's why it and MediCare are in such trouble, they already spent the money!

BUT,

Above three taxes ASSUME eliminating the Income Tax and all other kinds of taxes where the government noses around in bank accounts, etc.  Government has no business peaking into my personal affairs.  Invites corruption too...

*  *  *

Inflation is basically a tax on the poor.  And it's sneaky, probably morally very wrong.  But, easy to impose.  Ugh.

NST/GST should be a thing, it helps alleviate other taxes and even though it discourages consumer spending, namely having cars cost an additional $2500, a variable NST that would be applied to different types of goods is a good idea. SInce certain items cost different and varying amounts, 15% on everything is too high.

15% on basic necessities, as they are already fairly cheap, seems reasonable. 10% would be better however. I don't want to see the poor be forced further into poverty because of taxes.

Property can't be moved, unless there's someone willing to exchange pieces of land, so a piece of land should be taxed only to cover maintenance costs that the gov't would pay for. There shouldn't be any additional funds going into city coffers aside from that used for maintenance.

We already know what it is like to have taxes on financial transactions, primarily because we use Bitcoin. 3% taxes, that go directly to the government budgets, seem reasonable. $10,000 transactions would only have an additional $10 spent, so it isn't harmful for consumers. The sheer volume of translations daily, however, make it a good idea.

Keep income tax, and tax only 15%-20% at max. The other taxes will keep pace, like you said. Even better if you are assigned a number and not a name, that way you can maintain your privacy, and still pay the taxes. Of course this would be difficult to enforce.

[OROBTC]

...

Yakamoto

The Income Tax allows governments to snoop into our bank accounts and is already forcing Americans OUT of keeping money in foreign banks ("FATCA" laws) -- these burden foreign banks that would otherwise let Americans open up bank accounts in those countries.  It is NOT government's business to DICTATE what we do with our own money.

The Income Tax is immoral and invites corruption too.  No Income Tax!  Not even a flat one.  The Income Tax is even unconstitutional (USA).

*  *  *

As Sales Tax is regressive on the poor, that is true.  But, it is VOLUNTARY, that is what is special about it...  You want to pay less tax?  Don't buy...  Governments want less consumption (hence cutting CO₂)?  Sales Tax.  Do we encourage SAVING (important)?  Sales Tax.

[Yakamoto]

...

Yakamoto

The Income Tax allows governments to snoop into our bank accounts and is already forcing Americans OUT of keeping money in foreign banks ("FATCA" laws) -- these burden foreign banks that would otherwise let Americans open up bank accounts in those countries.  It is NOT government's business to DICTATE what we do with our own money.

The Income Tax is immoral and invites corruption too.  No Income Tax!  Not even a flat one.  The Income Tax is even unconstitutional (USA).

*  *  *

As Sales Tax is regressive on the poor, that is true.  But, it is VOLUNTARY, that is what is special about it...  You want to pay less tax?  Don't buy...  Governments want less consumption (hence cutting CO₂)?  Sales Tax.  Do we encourage SAVING (important)?  Sales Tax.

Good points, I'm not American so I don't know all of the politics that happen there, but I wasn't aware that people in the States think their government is so corrupt. I understand there is always corruption, but I guess I didn't think that everyone thinks it is abysmal in the States.

I understand that it isn't the place of the government to dictate what is done with your money, but at the same time they do provide a lot of services such as infrastructure and military services, but I'm not sure what value you place on those, so I can't decide if you think that is enough.

[OROBTC]

...

Yakamoto

The Income Tax allows governments to snoop into our bank accounts and is already forcing Americans OUT of keeping money in foreign banks ("FATCA" laws) -- these burden foreign banks that would otherwise let Americans open up bank accounts in those countries.  It is NOT government's business to DICTATE what we do with our own money.

The Income Tax is immoral and invites corruption too.  No Income Tax!  Not even a flat one.  The Income Tax is even unconstitutional (USA).

*  *  *

As Sales Tax is regressive on the poor, that is true.  But, it is VOLUNTARY, that is what is special about it...  You want to pay less tax?  Don't buy...  Governments want less consumption (hence cutting CO₂)?  Sales Tax.  Do we encourage SAVING (important)?  Sales Tax.

Good points, I'm not American so I don't know all of the politics that happen there, but I wasn't aware that people in the States think their government is so corrupt. I understand there is always corruption, but I guess I didn't think that everyone thinks it is abysmal in the States.

I understand that it isn't the place of the government to dictate what is done with your money, but at the same time they do provide a lot of services such as infrastructure and military services, but I'm not sure what value you place on those, so I can't decide if you think that is enough.

And taxation IS a difficult subject in any country.  SOMEONE has to pay them, and switching taxation systems means SOMEONE will have to pay more, maybe much more.   NO ONE likes paying more taxes.

That is probably why "they" do not change to a more rational taxation system.  Because of resistance among those who would pay more.

Government spending, like you write, is a whole 'nother subject...   

[CoinCube]

On
1) Roman empire is not counter-evidence, their fall was as you have quoted because the "citizens did not want to save the state" pretty much the reason the eastern part failed eventually. It was only after magna carta the french revolution and the dawn of national states that states regained their "legitimacy". Btw why also Eurozone will eventually fail too, it is increasingly perceived as an oppressor. The economic unsustainablility of oppressor states is self evident I think in history.
But on to the point now sound money for a state means constant surpluses, that means money taken out of the economy by taxation for what? to keep it idle? why tax it in the first place then? It also means trade surpluses which if not allowed to be balanced back by the currency channel they will balance by other channels but they will balance

On a side-note  Getting cash inflows is not always a good thing as the French indemnity of 1871 has shown. France the payer issued bond and later did much better, while Germany on the receiving end did much worse by getting caught in a speculative bubble.

More here http://blog.mpettis.com/2014/05/why-a-savings-glut-does-not-increase-savings/

2) Its the penalty for not being economically active over a period of a single generation 30 years, but in the short term I wouldn't call it major.

3) Well if done right, cannot blame inflation for the failings of banks. Obviously something is missing from the equation to account for the Minsky moments

4) But thats what funding does it allows you to first have education and work after with all the benefits of education, what is better paying tuition fees grilling burgers or writing software? Having your parents pay for your education is not equalizing the playing field.

5) Taxation is lacking in "resolution" as a redistribution, it is too intrusive, too costly, to enforce it and needs too much management also taxation targets the cash flows not the accumulation.
As a Redistribution mechanism Inflation is like pouring champagne over a pyramid of glasses until all glasses are full, Taxation is like going over every glass and filling them one by one

6) Cooperation is not always moral, which is why we have antirust laws.

The core of your arguments above appear to be the following.

1) Inflation is a better tool than taxation for redistributing wealth because it simultaneously targets "all champaign glasses" efficiently guaranteeing funding of government priorities without the overhead of intrusive taxes, and costly enforcement.

2) Education is valuable and thus it is the duty of the state to provide guaranteed funding for individuals seeking higher education. Such funding is necessary to equalize the economic playing field.

In regards to your first argument I entirely agree. Inflation is both a more efficient and hidden way of siphoning wealth from the population. I disagree that this is in any way desirable.

Both inflation and taxation involve taking from those who produce in order to fund some centralized priority. Such activity by its very nature is top down management of the economy therefore inefficient. The goal should be to shrink this inefficiency to the minimum necessary to maintain social stability and guarantee a well functioning state. Unlike inflation taxation is not hidden and thus is subject to far more public scrutiny. Taxation also allows the taxed to make a case against new taxes. Taxation as a method of funding will thus result in lower levels of overall government spending and thus less waste.

In regards to your second argument, I agree that education is valuable. Whether it is valuable enough that we should guarantee funding for all those who seek higher education regardless of the cost or their future earnings potential is debatable. However, if you believe that education is a critical public need (like national defense) and the need will not be met by the free market then the proper course of action is to petition the government to directly fund the needed expense and pay for it with taxation. The true cost will then not be hidden.

As was mentioned above the advent of cryptocurrency means that governments have categorically lost their monopoly on coinage and will thus eventually lose the power to inflate. Given the freedom to choose people will vote with their feet and leave inflationary currencies for others that better approximate ideal money.

Governments can slow this competition by using force much like the late Roman Empire did when it required merchants to accept its copper tokens under penalty of death. However, we agree that the economic unsustainablility of an oppressor state is self evident. It follows that inflation as a tool of redistribution is likewise unsustainable.

[bigtimespaghetti]

My thoughts on taxation. 

I like the idea of the "Voluntary Taxes", that would be mostly a National Sales Tax.  Say slap 15% sales tax on EVERYTHING that is bought (at retail).  And enforce it.  No exceptions for food, housing, etc.  A National Sales Tax would be less complex that than a European-style VAT.

I do not like property taxes, but I could live with them as long as the taxes are fixed at a reasonable rate.  Real Estate can't be moved, so perhaps there IS a case for taxing it.

An argument could be made for a small percentage tax on financial transactions.  A payroll tax (Social Security) maybe, but the experience to date is bad, .gov has already spent the money received in S.S. taxes, that's why it and MediCare are in such trouble, they already spent the money!

BUT,

Above three taxes ASSUME eliminating the Income Tax and all other kinds of taxes where the government noses around in bank accounts, etc.  Government has no business peaking into my personal affairs.  Invites corruption too...

*  *  *

Inflation is basically a tax on the poor.  And it's sneaky, probably morally very wrong.  But, easy to impose.  Ugh.

Well you already have my philosophical thoughts on taxation being a violent extortion scheme.

But if you absolutely require taxation, then I`d go with a 1% permanent transaction tax.

That would be the most efficient, most paying, and most fair of them all. It would look less like an extortion scheme where "inspectors" come into your shop and search your stuff, and it would be automated.

A governmental cryptocurrency with a genesis address held by the government and a built in 1% of the mining income and fee income automatically going into the treasury.

It would hit everybody the same %, and it would be less invasive than an income tax, and doesnt require a tax department, so you save huge amounts in bureocracy costs.


Think about it, if the money velocity is fast, and value of money is high, then this can actually create huge revenues to the governments.


If those 4 quadrillion derivatives, and hot potato banking high frequency traders get taxed 1% then you dont need to tax the poor anymore with huge taxes

Flat transaction taxes makes so much more sense. This is exactly why it will never be implemented. governments are content to hunt down money and destroy what's left of the markets.

[RealBitcoin]

Flat transaction taxes makes so much more sense. This is exactly why it will never be implemented. governments are content to hunt down money and destroy what's left of the markets.

There are already many economists proposing it, and if enough people want it, then it can be done.

If the 4 quadrillion derivative bubble gets taxed 1%, then there will be no need to steal 30-40% from the mouths of poor families and their children, or hardworking middle class people who already contribute a lot more to the economy.

[thaaanos]

Productivity is not a virtue that brings entitlements to wealth, productivity is a zero sum game within the pareto boundary, for one to produce more some one else needs to produce less, therefore increasing ones productivity comes with a cost to someone else. so it should be increasingly harder to produce more just in par with the increasing justification of the need to be more productive. Claiming that just because one is productive should be entitled to more, is like claiming that people prefer not to be productive,and also denying that healthy humans have a basic need of self actualization.
If anyone should be entitled to more it should be people having dully boring jobs so that the rest can follow their life's dream or "doing what they love"

Secondary taxation ie VAT, Assets tax, Real estate tax, should be not considered as primary funding channels but as a tool for a state to enforce policy ie like Carbon Tax, ideally those types of taxes would display and cover the hidden costs and risks for the public by the respective economic activity.
The Income tax is imo the primary funding channel and also a redistribution tool in a society in order to cover public infrastructure and the means for the citizens to be able to produce not only money but other non monetized capital, ie human capital, culture, etc. In that sense it should follow a power law, not flat.
Finally public investment should be funded by issuing debt. If the investment is fruitful the debt remains essentially increasing money supply, if investment fails debt should be written off essentially decreasing money supply

A state or any other group cannot be governed by anything else than a top down management, its the decision/policy making that we should demand to be bottom up. Not having a top down management is a vacuum of power.

"Man is the measure of all things" not Algorithms, something crypto designers should start taking into account.

[CoinCube]

Productivity is not a virtue that brings entitlements to wealth, productivity is a zero sum game within the pareto boundary, for one to produce more some one else needs to produce less, therefore increasing ones productivity comes with a cost to someone else. so it should be increasingly harder to produce more just in par with the increasing justification of the need to be more productive. Claiming that just because one is productive should be entitled to more, is like claiming that people prefer not to be productive,and also denying that healthy humans have a basic need of self actualization...

This sounds awfully close to the ideas promoted by Communism. Productivity is not a virtue that brings entitlements to wealth? Enforcing that would seem to require nothing less then the total abolishment of private property along with some form of totalitarian government to enforce the redistribution.

We should not say that one man's hour is worth another man's hour, but rather that one man during an hour is worth just as much as another man during an hour. Time is everything, man is nothing

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people.

The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property.

Communism has been tried. In every attempt to date it failed and killed millions.

[RealBitcoin]

Hey guys can somebody give me the link again to that article about global derivaties. It was in the economist or london times or some other big newspaper, and it was an illustration that compared stock markets, bitcoin, gold and other markets to the total global derivative market, and it was illustrated in a picture.

Can some1 give me the link again please?

[Temo58]

I was having a milder relapse yesterday, so I upped my vitamin D3 dosage to 100,000 IU (and copious water intake) then slept a solid 6 hours. All indications are that my symptoms respond to high dose vitamin D3 and none of the other numerous remedies I experimented with since 2012.

Interesting that filipinos are suffering deficiency, not only because of office jobs, but also because they hate to be their natural brown color and want to be white like us (they go so far as to bleach their skin!).

http://manilastandardtoday.com/mobile/2014/05/19/3-out-of-5-filipinos-suffer-from-vitamin-d-deficiency

This sort of self-help health information is an example of the Knowledge Age in action. There are business opportunities right now for someone to market vitamin D3 as a cure for many ailments. I guarantee you it cures menstruation pain. Every time a lady has this pain coming on, I offer her 5000 IU of vitamin D3 and her pain subsides within an hour. Do you know how much women hate that monthly pain?

[RealBitcoin]

I was having a milder relapse yesterday, so I upped my vitamin D3 dosage to 100,000 IU (and copious water intake) then slept a solid 6 hours. All indications are that my symptoms respond to high dose vitamin D3 and none of the other numerous remedies I experimented with since 2012.

Interesting that filipinos are suffering deficiency, not only because of office jobs, but also because they hate to be their natural brown color and want to be white like us (they go so far as to bleach their skin!).

http://manilastandardtoday.com/mobile/2014/05/19/3-out-of-5-filipinos-suffer-from-vitamin-d-deficiency

This sort of self-help health information is an example of the Knowledge Age in action. There are business opportunities right now for someone to market vitamin D3 as a cure for many ailments. I guarantee you it cures menstruation pain. Every time a lady has this pain coming on, I offer her 5000 IU of vitamin D3 and her pain subsides within an hour. Do you know how much women hate that monthly pain?

I`m not sure what this has to do with economics but I agree with you.

If women are bleeding and losing many minerals, they need to reload those minerals into their body.

I`m also taking in magnesium capsules, it absolutely helps relieve stress and gives you a better mood.

[sidhujag]

I work out 6-7 days a week and take multi-vits twice a day... it keeps you going good and mind sharp.

[TPTB_need_war]

Why the fuck would we even be working on crypto currency if governance worked. Crypto currency would be entirely unnecessary if democracy actually worked.

Good point. The same could be said for corporations. There is no need to blockchain the corporation; the current model works just fine for what it does. You only need a new model if you want to do actually accomplish something different.

We are headed into the Knowledge Age where the individuals are their own bosses and so we need perhaps block chain contracts between individuals. No middleman as in the Theory of the Firm. In that theory, the corporation exists to handle risks and costs related to impedance mismatches when individuals interact, e.g. a key employee dies and no one else can work on the code he was doing. Or the inability to get focus and direction amongst a disparate group of individuals without the discipline of a manager.

We need to learn how to work together in open source, having contracts that reward all parties, yet also provide necessary redundancy, openness, etc.. For now that is a nebulous dream but I think we are working towards that. I hope.

[TPTB_need_war]

I was having a milder relapse yesterday, so I upped my vitamin D3 dosage to 100,000 IU (and copious water intake) then slept a solid 6 hours. All indications are that my symptoms respond to high dose vitamin D3 and none of the other numerous remedies I experimented with since 2012.

Interesting that filipinos are suffering deficiency, not only because of office jobs, but also because they hate to be their natural brown color and want to be white like us (they go so far as to bleach their skin!).

http://manilastandardtoday.com/mobile/2014/05/19/3-out-of-5-filipinos-suffer-from-vitamin-d-deficiency

This sort of self-help health information is an example of the Knowledge Age in action. There are business opportunities right now for someone to market vitamin D3 as a cure for many ailments. I guarantee you it cures menstruation pain. Every time a lady has this pain coming on, I offer her 5000 IU of vitamin D3 and her pain subsides within an hour. Do you know how much women hate that monthly pain?

I`m not sure what this has to do with economics but I agree with you.

If women are bleeding and losing many minerals, they need to reload those minerals into their body.

I`m also taking in magnesium capsules, it absolutely helps relieve stress and gives you a better mood.

Note I am more on herbals now (curcumim, moringa, bitter melon, and mangosteen) and VitD3 seems to have been addressing the symptoms of my conjectured bile obstruction and not the root cause. Careful with high dose VitD3, there are painful potential outcomes (kidney stones).

[thaaanos]

Productivity is not a virtue that brings entitlements to wealth, productivity is a zero sum game within the pareto boundary, for one to produce more some one else needs to produce less, therefore increasing ones productivity comes with a cost to someone else. so it should be increasingly harder to produce more just in par with the increasing justification of the need to be more productive. Claiming that just because one is productive should be entitled to more, is like claiming that people prefer not to be productive,and also denying that healthy humans have a basic need of self actualization...

This sounds awfully close to the ideas promoted by Communism. Productivity is not a virtue that brings entitlements to wealth? Enforcing that would seem to require nothing less then the total abolishment of private property along with some form of totalitarian government to enforce the redistribution.

We should not say that one man's hour is worth another man's hour, but rather that one man during an hour is worth just as much as another man during an hour. Time is everything, man is nothing

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people.

The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property.

Communism has been tried. In every attempt to date it failed and killed millions.

For me the only entitlement to wealth goes to the one that increases the total productivity and pushes the pareto boundary further. In that sense Bill Gates fortune is well deserved but it also means that Linus should be equally awarded.

Communism, Fascism, Capitalism they are Ideas. Ideas kill... always  You really want to rate Ideas by body count? How many kills the Right to Property has?

[THX 1138]

Hey guys can somebody give me the link again to that article about global derivaties. It was in the economist or london times or some other big newspaper, and it was an illustration that compared stock markets, bitcoin, gold and other markets to the total global derivative market, and it was illustrated in a picture.

Can some1 give me the link again please?

Was this the one?

http://money.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization/

[RealBitcoin]

Hey guys can somebody give me the link again to that article about global derivaties. It was in the economist or london times or some other big newspaper, and it was an illustration that compared stock markets, bitcoin, gold and other markets to the total global derivative market, and it was illustrated in a picture.

Can some1 give me the link again please?

Was this the one?

http://money.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization/

Yes that one, thanks you very much.

I was going to show that picture to a friend, because he doesnt believe me that the 1.6 quadrillion derivatives exist