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HKBvM
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January 13, 2015, 03:12:05 PM |
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Let's gather PoS related ideas which were proposed so far: 1. [voephilis] Use PoS parameters which were considered in Oct. Interest rate starts at 100% then is being lowered several times until it reaches 1%. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=402667.msg9096942#msg90969422. [Boreiv, kresuk] Use same PoS parameters which Rofo considered recently with interest rate 5-10% 3. [fairglu] Switch to PoS without using an exchange. 4. [kresuk] Use swap rate of 5:1 or 10:1 e.g. for 5/10 current coins people get 1 new "pos" coin. 5. [voephilisI] Joe, the dev of Coin Magi is willing to help. His message: "I can experiment the hybrid PoW/PoS like XMG, but it's also fine with the pure PoS; I strongly recommend XMG's PoS-II, it's more safe compared to the implementation of PoS 2.0 by blackcoin and much more network activities triggered by PoS-II comparing with the PoSV of REDD as it advertised. Feel free to let me know what I can do." Here's my $.02 on each: [1] Looks good to me. We are already close to 2 billions coins so the 100% interest rate would be working just at the very beginning. This could work by attracting people to stake just after the switch and at least some of them will continue to do so even with lower interest rate. Also bear in mind that interest rate is not the only PoS parameter available. We could also cap max reward per block. [2] I think 5% is too low. 10% is OK. The problem may be to find people interested in keeping their wallets open all the time which is important since this is how the network is secured in PoS. [3] This is interesting because we can do the switch without relying on external parties. Also decide freely what swap rate to choose and so on. However if we follow this route there will be two noblecoins in existence. So in fact we will still need to talk with exchanges either to de-list the old noblecoin or ask them to add new noblecoin-pos. [4] The idea of having less coins is to push the price higher hoping that with swap rate 10:1 price also goes 10 times higher e.g. to 70 SAT now. However there is risk people who are not actively looking at Noble will treat increase in price as pump and in the end price may end up lower than 10 times higher. So in the end market cap of Noble may go down. [5] This is most revolutionary idea. Switch to new version of PoS potentially avoiding some pitfalls related to the well known PoS which is used by many coins. This sounds good. However by choosing this path we change drastically Noblecoin's image. What I mean by this is Rofo chose 'stable yet boring route' and this attracted all of us here. This is what usually people in traditional finance like. To have something you can rely on even if it produces lower returns. I am not sure if making such a bold move would be good long term. There is much higher risk that hard fork will be needed if serious issues are found in the new PoS code. Short term it should be good as it is always easier to advertise bold moves in crypto world. Please share your thoughts. At this point I do not like [4] but would like to further discuss remaining points. I am pretty sure you guys are far more knowledagble about the details than I am, still here are my thoughts: We kind of have the opportunity for a restart. Lets use that opportunity to somehow create a little hype to attract some new buyers. I dont mean to artificially try to pump this coin, thats somthing completely different, just to be clear. The interest rate is one opportunity. There are people out there who are attracted by high interest rates. Why not try to attract them. Start with a high interest rate (100%), but lower it rather quickly to something in the 10-20% region. Dont go much lower, inflation is not the main issue but network security. I never stake my bc for example (1% POS). I cant comment much about the coin swap, but if there is the possibility to do it without an exchange, thats better. Coins at an exchange are always a risk that should be avoided if it is possible. If its way more complicated, go the exchange way. This cant take months from now on. Might be a desission between the safe and the easy (exchange) way. Not sure. A 10:1 or so swap seems a bit unnessecary to me. Sure, if a coin trades in the 1-5 sats region, the "real price" is hard to see as any buy/sell leads to a 20% or more change in the marketcap. However if noble trades in that region in a few weeks from now for a prolonged period of time, it could be safely called dead anyway. And if BTC dies, this world comes to an end anyway  I cant comment much about the xmg POS system. I would have to read about it first. If its good and can be used as another selling point, which is bitterly needed, go for it. |
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NorrisK
Legendary
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Activity: 1946
Merit: 1007
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January 13, 2015, 03:34:07 PM |
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@rofo
I sent you a PM to see if you are up for a discussion (voice on something like skype or I can call you at a phone number, up to you) about some tech that could help add physical support to just about any coin, however Noble would be the one in current existence I would rather support than any other honestly, from our dealings in the past you have definitely proven yourself beyond what anyone else in the industry has up till now, (not saying anyone else is not out there, just saying I have not had personal dealings with anyone myself that is as stand up as you)
you can message me here, or on skype (architct is the USER name there, and should show up as Thomas A. Anderson when searching that name) same name can be used on google+ too, just look for a guy in dark goggles and a tophat, you remember my goggles I am sure, so...
to all others, if this idea I have and tech I am working on, is brought together you can expect to see the fecal matter hit the rotary blades in the crypto-world lol.
Usually the fastest way to contact him is pm or IRC private message. Im really curious about your idea now.. |
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morphtrust
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January 13, 2015, 03:52:37 PM |
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--snip--
Usually the fastest way to contact him is pm or IRC private message. Im really curious about your idea now.. yep that is why it stated that I sent him a PM already lol. as for the idea, it will be coming to fruition either way, but I would love to use it to help out the most "noble" coin as well as change so many other things too, that it will inherently effect positively  |
"Violence, is the last refuge of the incompetent."
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."
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james6546
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January 13, 2015, 04:22:31 PM |
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--snip--
Usually the fastest way to contact him is pm or IRC private message. Im really curious about your idea now.. yep that is why it stated that I sent him a PM already lol. as for the idea, it will be coming to fruition either way, but I would love to use it to help out the most "noble" coin as well as change so many other things too, that it will inherently effect positively Hi morphtrust, rofo is taking a much needed break from crypto at the moment. Hopefully he will reply to you in due course, but if you feel like you need to discuss your idea (and we are very interested in it) either PM eagleflies, myself, voephilisI or kresu or join us in #noblecoin on IRC |
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adam1230
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
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January 13, 2015, 06:39:15 PM |
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Let's gather PoS related ideas which were proposed so far: 1. [voephilis] Use PoS parameters which were considered in Oct. Interest rate starts at 100% then is being lowered several times until it reaches 1%. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=402667.msg9096942#msg90969422. [Boreiv, kresuk] Use same PoS parameters which Rofo considered recently with interest rate 5-10% 3. [fairglu] Switch to PoS without using an exchange. 4. [kresuk] Use swap rate of 5:1 or 10:1 e.g. for 5/10 current coins people get 1 new "pos" coin. 5. [voephilisI] Joe, the dev of Coin Magi is willing to help. His message: "I can experiment the hybrid PoW/PoS like XMG, but it's also fine with the pure PoS; I strongly recommend XMG's PoS-II, it's more safe compared to the implementation of PoS 2.0 by blackcoin and much more network activities triggered by PoS-II comparing with the PoSV of REDD as it advertised. Feel free to let me know what I can do." Here's my $.02 on each: [1] Looks good to me. We are already close to 2 billions coins so the 100% interest rate would be working just at the very beginning. This could work by attracting people to stake just after the switch and at least some of them will continue to do so even with lower interest rate. Also bear in mind that interest rate is not the only PoS parameter available. We could also cap max reward per block. [2] I think 5% is too low. 10% is OK. The problem may be to find people interested in keeping their wallets open all the time which is important since this is how the network is secured in PoS. [3] This is interesting because we can do the switch without relying on external parties. Also decide freely what swap rate to choose and so on. However if we follow this route there will be two noblecoins in existence. So in fact we will still need to talk with exchanges either to de-list the old noblecoin or ask them to add new noblecoin-pos. [4] The idea of having less coins is to push the price higher hoping that with swap rate 10:1 price also goes 10 times higher e.g. to 70 SAT now. However there is risk people who are not actively looking at Noble will treat increase in price as pump and in the end price may end up lower than 10 times higher. So in the end market cap of Noble may go down. [5] This is most revolutionary idea. Switch to new version of PoS potentially avoiding some pitfalls related to the well known PoS which is used by many coins. This sounds good. However by choosing this path we change drastically Noblecoin's image. What I mean by this is Rofo chose 'stable yet boring route' and this attracted all of us here. This is what usually people in traditional finance like. To have something you can rely on even if it produces lower returns. I am not sure if making such a bold move would be good long term. There is much higher risk that hard fork will be needed if serious issues are found in the new PoS code. Short term it should be good as it is always easier to advertise bold moves in crypto world. Please share your thoughts. At this point I do not like [4] but would like to further discuss remaining points. I would like to see #5 happen. For NOBL to be one of the first POS II coins would push it forward quite a bit I believe. Our algorithm is more important than we think and by changing with the times faster we will surely get more exposure and more financial backing of sorts (which, lets face it, is necessary). Not to mention it seems secure and stable. |
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morphtrust
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January 13, 2015, 07:00:05 PM |
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--snip--
Usually the fastest way to contact him is pm or IRC private message. Im really curious about your idea now.. yep that is why it stated that I sent him a PM already lol. as for the idea, it will be coming to fruition either way, but I would love to use it to help out the most "noble" coin as well as change so many other things too, that it will inherently effect positively Hi morphtrust, rofo is taking a much needed break from crypto at the moment. Hopefully he will reply to you in due course, but if you feel like you need to discuss your idea (and we are very interested in it) either PM eagleflies, myself, voephilisI or kresu or join us in #noblecoin on IRC his email: info@jasonlcurby.comThought there was his telephon number, too. but I can't find it anymore. who's info is the email addy for? Rofo? |
"Violence, is the last refuge of the incompetent."
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."
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morphtrust
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January 13, 2015, 07:24:52 PM |
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message sent through that channel as well lol
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"Violence, is the last refuge of the incompetent."
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."
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111magic
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1005
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January 13, 2015, 08:49:18 PM |
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guys, I just got an answer from Joe, the dev of Coin Magi, who is willing to help. He developed a PoS II which seems to be far better and safer! Here you can find some info about Magi and it's PoS II: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.0Pls discuss this option! I will be back in some hours Sounds interesting. Be careful not to have too many people working on a pos fork now, otherwise you may end up with several wallets and disappointed helping hands. If you guys need help from our great dev Joe, just ask him. He is a very nice guy! |
bitcoin: bc1qyadvvyv29z08ln2ta7g3uqwzkscr7wq4p09wuz
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111magic
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1005
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January 13, 2015, 09:16:55 PM |
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You and your community are welcome!
So just sent Joelao95 a pm.
Know he is very busy at the moment with the standalone payment gateway for Magi.
But think he always will take a look and might find the time to help your nice community.
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bitcoin: bc1qyadvvyv29z08ln2ta7g3uqwzkscr7wq4p09wuz
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Honeypot
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January 14, 2015, 12:00:33 AM |
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I think we should prioritize on the security aspect and time constraints. We need some form of POS soon as possible, and it doesn't have to be a pos 2.0 depending on its success possibility.
Due to past experiences of difficulties, we should focus on immediate concerns. A developer/programmer able to get started on building a pos wallet with 5-10% (I would settle on 7.5%, even 10%).
Too low stake will ensure there is little incentive for securing the network. 10% at most seems like a valid compromise.
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joelao95
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1009
Coin of the Magi!
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January 14, 2015, 12:29:41 AM |
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NOBL community, this is Joe from XMG. I must be frank that I'm actually a fan of NOBL. I am glad people like PoS-II; the following post has most of the details regarding the PoS-II: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9991269#msg9991269 feel free to let me know if you want to know more or any suggestions. Specifically I want to talk about the interest; two options: #1: low interest, APR never greater than 5%. As someone already pointed out, high interest rate may work in a short term but not good in the long run. Decentralization could be the issue for high-interest PoS, because some people tend to stock coin to gain more rewards, and this fact will make those people who can't gain enough coins to stake tend to sell their coins (there is saying PoS coin's price gets dilution), you know what will happen then. While this is not an obvious consequence, but might end up with that in the long run. #2: dynamic interest depending on the time (I suggest depending on the network weight too); maybe something like the PoW mining using reward reduction scheme, example: APR0 at 1st month, APR0 * r (r < 1) for 2nd month, APR0 * r^2 for 3rd month, and so on until getting to the final level (e.g., < 5%). I give my vote to option #1. NOBL doesn't need to attract more people, cause it's already notable. It's right that high interest will attract newcomers at the beginning, but we likely see a day they are going with a dumping left behind even big hurt to the coin. Staking should not be the main reason for one holding coins, if they do, they will dump sooner or later. Also, I'd like to put the fairness of coin distribution at the first place. |
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Honeypot
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January 14, 2015, 12:51:15 AM |
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NOBL community, this is Joe from XMG. I must be frank that I'm actually a fan of NOBL. I am glad people like PoS-II; the following post has most of the details regarding the PoS-II: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9991269#msg9991269 feel free to let me know if you want to know more or any suggestions. Specifically I want to talk about the interest; two options: #1: low interest, APR never greater than 5%. As someone already pointed out, high interest rate may work in a short term but not good in the long run. Decentralization could be the issue for high-interest PoS, because some people tend to stock coin to gain more rewards, and this fact will make those people who can't gain enough coins to stake tend to sell their coins (there is saying PoS coin's price gets dilution), you know what will happen then. While this is not an obvious consequence, but might end up with that in the long run. #2: dynamic interest depending on the time (I suggest depending on the network weight too); maybe something like the PoW mining using reward reduction scheme, example: APR0 at 1st month, APR0 * r (r < 1) for 2nd month, APR0 * r^2 for 3rd month, and so on until getting to the final level (e.g., < 5%). I give my vote to option #1. NOBL doesn't need to attract more people, cause it's already notable. It's right that high interest will attract newcomers at the beginning, but we likely see a day they are going with a dumping left behind even big hurt to the coin. Staking should not be the main reason for one holding coins, if they do, they will dump sooner or later. Also, I'd like to put the fairness of coin distribution at the first place. The issue has been discussed in circles over and over again - I agree that higher interest vs low interest pros and cons become less relevant with time. The primary issue is actual usage and adoption which cannot happen without some form of mainstream recognition and connections to the real financial world. I would support #1, with exact % between 5 and 10% that we can agree on. |
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NorrisK
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1007
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January 14, 2015, 07:04:59 AM |
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NOBL community, this is Joe from XMG. I must be frank that I'm actually a fan of NOBL. I am glad people like PoS-II; the following post has most of the details regarding the PoS-II: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9991269#msg9991269 feel free to let me know if you want to know more or any suggestions. Specifically I want to talk about the interest; two options: #1: low interest, APR never greater than 5%. As someone already pointed out, high interest rate may work in a short term but not good in the long run. Decentralization could be the issue for high-interest PoS, because some people tend to stock coin to gain more rewards, and this fact will make those people who can't gain enough coins to stake tend to sell their coins (there is saying PoS coin's price gets dilution), you know what will happen then. While this is not an obvious consequence, but might end up with that in the long run. #2: dynamic interest depending on the time (I suggest depending on the network weight too); maybe something like the PoW mining using reward reduction scheme, example: APR0 at 1st month, APR0 * r (r < 1) for 2nd month, APR0 * r^2 for 3rd month, and so on until getting to the final level (e.g., < 5%). I give my vote to option #1. NOBL doesn't need to attract more people, cause it's already notable. It's right that high interest will attract newcomers at the beginning, but we likely see a day they are going with a dumping left behind even big hurt to the coin. Staking should not be the main reason for one holding coins, if they do, they will dump sooner or later. Also, I'd like to put the fairness of coin distribution at the first place. The issue has been discussed in circles over and over again - I agree that higher interest vs low interest pros and cons become less relevant with time. The primary issue is actual usage and adoption which cannot happen without some form of mainstream recognition and connections to the real financial world. I would support #1, with exact % between 5 and 10% that we can agree on. I agree with This. |
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morphtrust
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January 14, 2015, 07:55:56 AM |
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--snip--
The issue has been discussed in circles over and over again - I agree that higher interest vs low interest pros and cons become less relevant with time. The primary issue is actual usage and adoption which cannot happen without some form of mainstream recognition and connections to the real financial world. I would support #1, with exact % between 5 and 10% that we can agree on. this is exactly why I was reaching out to Rofo. Hopefully I can get a dialog going with him and others about how we could realize this process. |
"Violence, is the last refuge of the incompetent."
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."
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eagleflies
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January 14, 2015, 09:17:36 AM |
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The people have spoken! I spent last two days working on a typical PoS wallet for Noble. But since there is overwhelming and almost unanimous support for taking the Magi Coin route I am going to put typical wallet onhold and investigate Magi Coin wallet. Will also reach out to Joe from their team. Interest rate of 5-10% sounds good. We can also start with 10% and lower it after some time.
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fairglu
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1100
Merit: 1032
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January 14, 2015, 09:50:21 AM |
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The people have spoken! I spent last two days working on a typical PoS wallet for Noble. But since there is overwhelming and almost unanimous support for taking the Magi Coin route I am going to put typical wallet onhold and investigate Magi Coin wallet. Will also reach out to Joe from their team. Interest rate of 5-10% sounds good. We can also start with 10% and lower it after some time. If you have it to the point where it "works" with the same Noble address scheme and a different net (at least the command-line unix daemon), I would not mind using it to test it if the address distribution things is workable or not, as that will likely be the same for a Magi-based code base. |
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eagleflies
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January 14, 2015, 09:56:57 AM |
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Hi Joe! Thank you for showing up here and interest in Noblecoin You're right - it seems almost everybody who expressed their opinion voted in favor of PoS-II. So we are going to take this route. I took a look at your description of PoS-II yesterday. Going to read it slower today and also to compile the wallet and inspect it. Speaking about interest - simpler is better so #1 is better choice. Interest rate somewhere between 5-10%. We can also start at 10% and go down as time progresses. I am going to PM to talk more about your wallet and PoS-II. Cheers! NOBL community, this is Joe from XMG. I must be frank that I'm actually a fan of NOBL. I am glad people like PoS-II; the following post has most of the details regarding the PoS-II: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9991269#msg9991269 feel free to let me know if you want to know more or any suggestions. Specifically I want to talk about the interest; two options: #1: low interest, APR never greater than 5%. As someone already pointed out, high interest rate may work in a short term but not good in the long run. Decentralization could be the issue for high-interest PoS, because some people tend to stock coin to gain more rewards, and this fact will make those people who can't gain enough coins to stake tend to sell their coins (there is saying PoS coin's price gets dilution), you know what will happen then. While this is not an obvious consequence, but might end up with that in the long run. #2: dynamic interest depending on the time (I suggest depending on the network weight too); maybe something like the PoW mining using reward reduction scheme, example: APR0 at 1st month, APR0 * r (r < 1) for 2nd month, APR0 * r^2 for 3rd month, and so on until getting to the final level (e.g., < 5%). I give my vote to option #1. NOBL doesn't need to attract more people, cause it's already notable. It's right that high interest will attract newcomers at the beginning, but we likely see a day they are going with a dumping left behind even big hurt to the coin. Staking should not be the main reason for one holding coins, if they do, they will dump sooner or later. Also, I'd like to put the fairness of coin distribution at the first place. |
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james6546
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January 14, 2015, 10:05:18 AM |
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We need a graphic designer for a new wallet. Can you help with that? If not do you know someone who is talented and would like to help?
Feel free to answer here or PM myself.
Thanks!
I'm picking up on this a bit to help out. Can we get together a bounty again seeing as we don't have access to much at the moment? I think there might be some left from the last community fund. I'll add 200k noble to it. So if anyone fancies designing a new wallet we will try to get a decent bounty together |
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NorrisK
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1007
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January 14, 2015, 10:18:22 AM |
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We need a graphic designer for a new wallet. Can you help with that? If not do you know someone who is talented and would like to help?
Feel free to answer here or PM myself.
Thanks!
I'm picking up on this a bit to help out. Can we get together a bounty again seeing as we don't have access to much at the moment? I think there might be some left from the last community fund. I'll add 200k noble to it. So if anyone fancies designing a new wallet we will try to get a decent bounty together I believe around 300k, ill check it out for the exact amount. |
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