[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[JollyGood]

Piston you always bring joy to dreaded dreary threads with your words of wisdom 

guys when make pump again to make me have lambo?!  please all 100 big dash owners who control this shitcoin, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaeeaaasesesee

lol

[toknormal]

An interesting new governance proposal is up

The only interesting thing about Dash is that it can provide services on its network without having to reduce its mining quota. Nothing else. That is what (would have) made it extremely competitive.

So the question is....why did Dash not use this to its advantage ?

Why did it kill its mining quota when it didn't have to and its marketcap along with it ? It's now on  a permanent downward spiral -  we are headed out of the top 60, then the top 70 etc...

[WastedLTC]

An interesting new governance proposal is up https://www.dashcentral.org/p/reduce-the-proposal-fee-to-one-dash it aims to reduce the proposal fee to 1 DASH from 5.  The fee is required in order to submit a proposal into the DASH DAO for funding for some work you want to do.  The purpose is the reduce the barrier to entry to foster more involvement in the DAO which in recent months has been very lacklustre.  Also, the reduction helps keep the fee in line with the yearly reduction of DASH available for bidding in the DAO.  I have voted in the affirmative on this one, I hope others here take the time to the same.

same -- will vote yes

[xkcdd]

An interesting new governance proposal is up

The only interesting thing about Dash is that it can provide services on its network without having to reduce its mining quota. Nothing else. That is what (would have) made it extremely competitive.

So the question is....why did Dash not use this to its advantage ?

Why did it kill its mining quota when it didn't have to and its marketcap along with it ? It's now on  a permanent downward spiral -  we are headed out of the top 60, then the top 70 etc...

Tok, are you still holding onto this fantasy that miners somehow set the opening price of the coin?  If so, are you now bearish on Bitcoin after it lost 50% of its hashrate in the last 6 weeks?

[toknormal]

Tok, are you still holding onto this fantasy that miners somehow set the opening price of the coin?  If so, are you now bearish on Bitcoin after it lost 50% of its hashrate in the last 6 weeks?

Yes. I am still holding onto that "fantasy".

Are you still holding onto the fantasy that allowing the protocol to set the blockchain extraction price for half of the supply to zero dollars rather than exposing it to a bidding market makes the coin more competitive ?

If so how do you explain Dash's loss of value against every other fully mined competitor ?

[xkcdd]

Tok, are you still holding onto this fantasy that miners somehow set the opening price of the coin?  If so, are you now bearish on Bitcoin after it lost 50% of its hashrate in the last 6 weeks?

Yes. I am still holding onto that "fantasy".

Are you still holding onto the fantasy that allowing the protocol to set the blockchain extraction price for half of the supply to zero dollars rather than exposing it to a bidding market makes the coin more competitive ?

If so how do you explain Dash's loss of value against every other fully mined competitor ?

Tok, would you mind answering my question first?  Are you bearish now on Bitcoin after its catastrophic drop in hashrate?

[toknormal]

Tok, would you mind answering my question first?  Are you bearish now on Bitcoin after its catastrophic drop in hashrate?

Not in the context of the matter at hand because while hashrate goes up and down in bitcoin it doesn't alter the number of coins per block that are bid for. They are all subject to open market bidding.

[xkcdd]

Tok, would you mind answering my question first?  Are you bearish now on Bitcoin after its catastrophic drop in hashrate?

Not in the context of the matter at hand because while hashrate goes up and down in bitcoin it doesn't alter the number of coins per block that are bid for. They are all subject to open market bidding.

Oh Brother!  That just makes no sense!  So, if I mine Bitcoin with one ASIC and no one else does, then that's OK because I would be producing new coins entirely from POW?  Good Lord, Tok!

Your prior argument was that there was some cost incurred by the miners due to the expense of mining so they were essentially 'buying' the coins from the protocol.  Well now that cost is slashed by half, so by your previous logic, the spot price must now be dis-proportionality high and we are likely to see a correction to bring the two (spot price and opening price) into equilibrium.

[toknormal]

Oh Brother!  That just makes no sense!  So, if I mine Bitcoin with one ASIC and no one else does, then that's OK because I would be producing new coins entirely from POW?  Good Lord, Tok!

I think you're throwing up straw men pretending I'm arguing something I'm not.

The POW blockchain is a market. Plain and simple - a trustless one but still a market. Bids for the supply are mediated through hashrate, just as in the secondary market (the market for second hand coins) they are mediated with national currencies.

In a commercial context, the job of hashrate isn't to secure the chain but rather to mediate bids and therefore establish the PRICE of a coin in this trustless market. If the chain issues only some coins at market price and others at zero price, it stands to reason that this will have a devaluing impact on the overall scarcity value of the supply. (If we define scarcity as the amount of financial effort required to extract a coin from the chain).

Once the masternode count is at equilibrium it means that recipients of these "free coins" are net sellers, unlike miners. This is just academic - miners require to enter this "trustless market" and compete with other "bidders" for coin acquisition, thereby raising the price. Masternodes on the other hand are net sellers once the nodecount is stable. i.e. they didn't have to acquire their rewards through bidding, they're just given them by the protocol.

This is what makes our marketcap bleed chronically compared with other 100% mined competitors.

Also we can't compare Dash's situation with de-fi proof of stake assets such as Ethereum or Tezos. These have a completely different business model where you're not investing in scarcity directly but rather activity because that activity acts as an on-chain sink for the coin supply. Dash does not have this type of economic model.

[xkcdd]

......

The POW blockchain is a market. Plain and simple - a trustless one but still a market. Bids for the supply are mediated through hashrate, just as in the secondary market (the market for second hand coins) they are mediated with national currencies.

In a commercial context, the job of hashrate isn't to secure the chain but rather to mediate bids and therefore establish the PRICE of a coin in this trustless market.
..........

You keep bringing it back to DASH when we haven't yet answered the question on how a catastrophic crash in the hashrate should effect the bidding in the primary market, which is obviously down by your own logic.

From your own words, the price in this primary market has just crashed, so I will take it you are bearish on Bitcoin.
Source: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-hashrate.html#3y

[toknormal]

From your own words, the price in this primary market has just crashed, so I will take it you are bearish on Bitcoin.
Source: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-hashrate.html#3y

The bitcoin market already crashed over 55% so it looks like that hashrate plunge already got priced in.

[xkcdd]

The bitcoin market already crashed over 55% so it looks like that hashrate plunge already got priced in.

No, it doesn't look like that at all, the hashrate is back to 2019 levels, this chart gives you a smoother view of it, very clear the primary market has completely crashed and Bitcoin is still drastically overvalued by a factor of 2 IMO according to your own philosophy.

Source: https://www.blockchain.com/charts/hash-rate

[toknormal]

No, it doesn't look like that at all, the hashrate is back to 2019 levels, this chart gives you a smoother view of it, very clear the primary market has completely crashed and Bitcoin is still drastically overvalued by a factor of 2 IMO according to your own philosophy.

I don't really know what point you're trying to make. That there's no relationship between hashrate and market price ? There's not necessarily a synchronised one but there's an economic one - it's the basis of bitcoin's store of value mechanism. Does that really have to be stated ?

It's not "hashrate" per se that's significant here anyway (as far as Dash's distinct protocol approach is concerned). It's the proportion of the supply that the protocol sets the effective difficulty to zero for - approaching 6 out of every 10 coins issued in Dash's case (in economic terms).

I think what obscures that point for many Dashers is that they feel that "owning/running" the masternode is enough basis to receive the reward. But things don't work like that because you still have your thousand Dash. The reward has to come from real economic activity that's measurable. For example you don't get interest on a bank account just for having your money in the bank. The bank has to invest it somewhere else and that "somewhere else" has to be doing something that makes a profit so your interest can be paid. That isn't happening in Dash because the masternode doesn't add to the scarcity value of the new supply. Mining does by exposing ALL the new supply to competitive bidding.

You've been trying to argue that this doesn't matter for the last 18 months and you've been wrong. The decline in store-of-value competitiveness is steady and relentless. The reason is that when you issue coins to holders which put them at a near 100% profit then profit-taking will also be consistent and relentless.

[JollyGood]

Piston deserves his post to be re-quoted here just to add some fun to this dull thread. Enjoy 

guys when make pump again to make me have lambo?!  please all 100 big dash owners who control this shitcoin, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaeeaaasesesee

lol

[xkcdd]

Tok, I don't agree that mining is what gives the coin value, for example, here we have a project called HEX which whose supply is fully emitted by other people's stakes maturing and giving them a bonus for the stake, upto 40% a year if staked for 6 years, less for shorter stakes and yet it is a top 10 coin, beating DASH in MC and 99.9% of other coins.

https://www.tradingview.com/x/zf920N6N

I think as humans, we like to rationalise things and find patterns where there are none and you've done just that to try and explain the performance of DASH, summarising it into a nutshell - It doesn't have enough mining, when in truth, the issues DASH faces are many and broad, but its level of mining is not one of them.

[toknormal]

Tok, I don't agree that mining is what gives the coin value, for example, here we have a project called HEX which whose supply is fully emitted by other people's stakes maturing and giving them a bonus for the stake

Are you serious ?

Hex is tiny and barely a year old. Even Dash has 67 times its marketcap. Anything that size and that young has years to go before their fundamentals show themselves beyond the pump & dump phase which has predominance for such small & new marketcaps. It also has a completely different store of value model to bitcoin's (which is based on maximising its scarcity value by exposing the chain to competitive bidding). Hex is a numbers game - trying to shrink the supply through staking and it isn't remotely tested. Dash has already tried that numbers game and is failing - in my opinion due to the fact that it tries to boost its store of value through throwing increasing numbers of free coins at masternodes rather than maximising the capital gain on masternode collateral with a much smaller reward. (The net result IMO would be a far higher reward in dollar terms and a far more competitive coin in terms of ranking).

So, I'm not saying mining "gives a coin value".

I'm saying that having the blockchain release coins at zero price to holders in the absence of any other on-chain sink (as with de-fi models) instead of exposing them to competitive bidding has the net effect of invoking chronic profit taking which drags it down in ranking over the years (due to the opportunity cost of investing in assets that are fully mined and therefore more buoyant in terms of store of value. i.e. ALL their supply is only released to the highest bidder).

[xkcdd]

Well this is embarrassing...   

Are you serious ?

Hex is tiny and barely a year old. Even Dash has 67 times its marketcap. Anything that size and that young has years to go before their fundamentals show themselves beyond the pump & dump phase which has predominance for such small & new marketcaps.

Guys, should I be the one to break it to him?   

HEX just flipped Tether in marketcap !   

https://nomics.com/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HEXcrypto/comments/ojff8h/hex_just_flipped_tether_number_3_guys/

This is because HEX is gate kept on CMC and they under report its rank and do not calculate the supply correctly, but you can get the supply from etherscan and figure out the MC at 10c and indeed it's in the top 5.  Says something about the allure of staking, low inflation, good pumpamentals and utility of the coin for pulse chain sacrifice.  DASH could also improve its MC if it only rewards the staker class more for holding the coin. We are so close, we just need a little more and then I think we can see a wonderful bull market for DASH.  We are literally on the precipice.

[toknormal]

This is because HEX is gate kept on CMC and they under report its rank and do not calculate the supply correctly, but you can get the supply from etherscan and figure out the MC

Ever heard of Veritasium ? Its "circulating to total" supply ratio was equally insane.

Hex looks to me to be over 3000. Print 6 trillion tokens, put 1/3000th of them into circulation and call the rest "locked up stakers". That will of course get you a stratospheric marketcap instantly because you can re-price the whole supply on miniscule volume.

You more than make my point for me because with a fully mined coin, every last one in circulation has to be bought in the primary market. So the entire supply always has its value endorsed by at least one buyer. (Except with Dash, for which 6 out of 10 coins the "buyer" pays zero dollars which is why it craters marketcap compared with its fully mined counterparts. We end up with a very heterogeneous supply in terms of cost base so the whole supply has to lose value to rebalance it).

Compare:

Dash
Circulating to total supply = 1:1

Hex
Circulating to total supply = 1:3662

These assets are completely incomparable.

[nutildah]

I only clicked on this thread because I find toknormal's obsession with masternodes to be fascinating human behavior. While I wasn't disappointed, I was surprised to find myself agreeing with him here.

HEX has 224,222 holders total.
DASH has 656,665 holders with at least a dollar balance.

HEX has a trading volume of about $38.9 million per day.
DASH sees at least 11x this... remove the "wash trading" and whatever else, its still a much bigger number.

There have been 1,871,215 HEX transactions ever.
At an average of 20k tx per day, DASH does this every 90 days.


The point is that just because someone knows how to really inflate a metric, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. I haven't really cared about DASH since I had my laptop stolen with a few hundred coins on it, just stopping by to point out the obvious.

[spirits]

This is because HEX is gate kept on CMC and they under report its rank and do not calculate the supply correctly, but you can get the supply from etherscan and figure out the MC at 10c and indeed it's in the top 5.  Says something about the allure of staking, low inflation, good pumpamentals and utility of the coin for pulse chain sacrifice.  DASH could also improve its MC if it only rewards the staker class more for holding the coin. We are so close, we just need a little more and then I think we can see a wonderful bull market for DASH.  We are literally on the precipice.

Each platform, whether CMC or Coingecko, for example, has its weaknesses and is probably not neutral.
But I think it is wrong that a project would establish itself in the top 10 through diligence, innovation and utility. How many projects are and were in the top 10 and are and were ultimately the biggest garbage.
Stakes or inflationary features do not make a top 10 ranking. Dash was created in a very different time when, for example, staking didn't even matter. When projects still had a unique selling point somewhere. A feature that seems to have been lost in the market. Everyone is doing the same thing and people are trying to outdo each other. The world is currently upside down and projects like Dash could therefore experience more demand in the future, precisely because they are suitable for the PoS. The day when de people might like to pay with Kypto is closer than you think. And then staking rewards could quickly fade into the background, because then people might be happy to be able to finance their everyday lives.

Of course, Dash has to look at what other projects are doing, but Dash should not lose sight of its real goal. I don't blame older projects, they have it doubly hard in my opinion, because newer projects are often very high up from now on. are these better? I don't think so, on the contrary, since it is ultimately an idea and speculated on, such a project should only be 7 years old and then still be in the top 100, as Dash is doing.