A Resource Based Economy

[grondilu]

I said quit dancing, "if" is dancing. They do not have a robot to make the things you take for granted. Do you give them these things (or a robot) for free? Yes or no.

You're annoying.  I don't know.  It's just as if you asked me if I give to beggars in the street.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  What I decide to do or not to do on these matters is my business.  There's nothing preventing them from doing what I did, anyway.

[myrkul]

I said quit dancing, "if" is dancing. They do not have a robot to make the things you take for granted. Do you give them these things (or a robot) for free? Yes or no.

You're annoying.  I don't know.  It's just as if you asked me if I give to beggars in the street.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  What I decide to do or not to do on these matters is my business. 

I'm annoying because I'm forcing you to challenge your values. It's a difficult process, and I'm sorry. But it needs to be done.

There's nothing preventing them from doing what I did, anyway.

Yes there is, I just told you. They don't have a self-replicating robot to make all their things.

Would you give them one?

[grondilu]

I'm annoying because I'm forcing you to challenge your values. It's a difficult process, and I'm sorry. But it needs to be done.

Indeed you're going into moral issues.  I don't want to talk about it.  I enjoyed the SF discussion but the rest is much less interesting.

Yes there is, I just told you. They don't have a self-replicating robot to make all their things.

I might not care.  But I'm pretty sure someone would.  Whether or not the proportion of people caring about people not owning means of production could be enough to ensure that everyone owns means of production is contingent.  And I'm not interested in discussing it.

[myrkul]

And I'm not interested in discussing it.

You mean you're not interested anymore. You previously stated that the value of those self-replicating robots would be zero:

It is priced.  If you want something that you can not produce yourself (because you don't have any robot, in which case you'll probably ask for a robot), you might find someone (at least one person), that will give it to you without asking any payment (because he will just order one of his robots to make it).  By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Why? Because they make themselves. Their labor is free. Since their labor is free, that makes the cost of making another one zero, yes?

That's the labor theory of value. Labor is not the only factor which goes into a price. By applying the labor theory of value to a high-technology society, all you have succeeded in doing is making every cost an externality.

This isn't morals. It's economics.

[grondilu]

It is priced.  If you want something that you can not produce yourself (because you don't have any robot, in which case you'll probably ask for a robot), you might find someone (at least one person), that will give it to you without asking any payment (because he will just order one of his robots to make it).  By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Why? Because they make themselves. Their labor is free. Since their labor is free, that makes the cost of making another one zero, yes?

No.  Because as I wrote, "you might find someone" who will give it away for no payment.  I wrote that he will just order one of his robots to make it.  Some people would accept to do that for free (I'm pretty sure at least one will).  Some others won't.  It's subjective.


It's like for bitcoin transactions.  There is no fixed price for transactions, but to me it's zero.  Because I'm pretty sure there will always be a miner that will accept to process my transaction even if there is no fee.  It might just take a bit more time.

[myrkul]

No.  Because as I wrote, "you might find someone" who will give it away for no payment.  I wrote that he will just order one of his robots to make it.  Some people would accept to do that for free (I'm pretty sure at least one will).  Some others won't.  It's subjective.

Sure didn't look subjective when you wrote this:

 By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Try again.

[grondilu]

No.  Because as I wrote, "you might find someone" who will give it away for no payment.  I wrote that he will just order one of his robots to make it.  Some people would accept to do that for free (I'm pretty sure at least one will).  Some others won't.  It's subjective.

Sure didn't look subjective when you wrote this:

By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Try again.

Well, the price is the last observed amount exchanged for a transaction, isn't it?

Some people will manage to buy at zero, but if I don't agree with this price, I don't have to sell it at this price.  There sure will be other transactions for different amounts, but the lower, the only one we can talk about here, is zero.

[myrkul]

No.  Because as I wrote, "you might find someone" who will give it away for no payment.  I wrote that he will just order one of his robots to make it.  Some people would accept to do that for free (I'm pretty sure at least one will).  Some others won't.  It's subjective.

Sure didn't look subjective when you wrote this:

 By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Try again.

Well, the price is the last observed amount exchanged for a transaction, isn't it?

Indeed. Between market actors. Not between a person and their property.

Some people will manage to buy at zero, but if I don't agree with this price, I don't have to sell it at this price.

So you have changed your tune from

There is a price.  It's zero.

to "some people will receive charity, but the market price will likely be higher than zero"?

[grondilu]

So you have changed your tune from

There is a price.  It's zero.

to "some people will receive charity, but the market price will likely be higher than zero"?

Don't put double quotes around a phrase I did not write.

There will be no fixed price (you can not prevent someone from buying something that could be free if this pleases him), but since we know there will always be at least a few transactions occurring for zero, then the price is zero.  Again, a bit like transaction fees in bitcoin.

[myrkul]

So you have changed your tune from

There is a price.  It's zero.

to "some people will receive charity, but the market price will likely be higher than zero"?

Don't put double quotes around a phrase I did not write.

If you wrote it, I'll put this:

around it. It will have a link to the post where you wrote it. Never fear me putting words in your mouth.

There will be no fixed price (you can not prevent someone from buying something that could be free if this pleases him), but since we know there will always be at least a few transactions occurring for zero, then the price is zero.  Again, a bit like transaction fees in bitcoin.

So you still think that because the labor is free, the product is free?

If I give away a ham sandwich as charity, does that make the market price of a ham sandwich zero? What if I give away 10 sandwiches a day?

[grondilu]

So you still think that because the labor is free, the product is free?

No, I just said that the price will be zero, because of the definition of the price as the last observed transaction on the market.  Nothing to do with a relation between labor and product.

If I give away a ham sandwich as charity, does that make the market price of a ham sandwich zero?

Yeah I was just thinking about that.   It's kind of far fetched, but in a sense, yes.   Except that we all know that normally if you want to eat a sandwich you just can't rely on charity (I don't think so, anyway).

[myrkul]

So you still think that because the labor is free, the product is free?

No, I just said that the price will be zero, because of the definition of the price as the last observed transaction on the market.  Nothing to do with a relation between labor and product.

If I give away a ham sandwich as charity, does that make the market price of a ham sandwich zero?

Yeah I was just thinking about that.   It's kind of far fetched, but in a sense, yes.   Except that we all know that normally if you want to eat a sandwich you just can't rely on charity (I don't think so, anyway).

"Free" is by definition outside the market. Markets are for trades, not charity.

[grondilu]

"Free" is by definition outside the market. Markets are for trades, not charity.

If you send a transaction on the bitcoin network with a 0BTC fee, do you ask for charity?

[myrkul]

"Free" is by definition outside the market. Markets are for trades, not charity.

If you send a transaction on the bitcoin network with a 0BTC fee, do you ask for charity?

Not at the moment, since miners are still getting paid for processing blocks. Once the block reward goes away, you would be.

[Rassah]

How to start a Zeitgeist movement:
Step one: create complex, self replicating robots that can make anything, for free.
Step two: figure out how to make everything, from food to shelter to clothing to electronics, from only sea water and air, using a process that creates zero pollution


...... 

[myrkul]

How to start a Zeitgeist movement:
Step one: create complex, self replicating robots that can make anything, for free.
Step two: figure out how to make everything, from food to shelter to clothing to electronics, from only sea water and air, using a process that creates zero pollution

Step three: ? ? ?
Step four: Die when seawater finally dries up and air is depleted.

[ElectricMucus]

Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better. 

[myrkul]

Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better. 

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.

[ElectricMucus]

Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.

I'm glad you agree.  You see it's that easy to get along

[myrkul]

Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.

I'm glad you agree. 

I didn't say for who...