Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[johhnyUA]

Besides, this is typical propaganda move:

Die Welt - June 5, 2022
Edward Luttwak
"The curious and strange thing about Russia is that even if it didn't have nuclear weapons, it would be impossible to achieve a Ukrainian victory in the sense that the Russians would be forced to withdraw completely, maybe even from Crimea".

Edward Luttwak is telling that this is unlikely that Ukraine will free Crimea. And kremling puppet Veleor trying to show it as an example for statement "Ukraine is unlikely to get victory". Trying to use verbaly similar thesis to prove his statement.
Far example: I'm telling "Oh, i can't jump up to the Moon" , Veleor: "Johhny tells us that he can't jump"

Ha ha Edward Luttwak, by himself, told pretty the sama things as me here:



And this fact tells us that such users as Veleor are close enough to russian propaganda machine (or useful idiot)

[BADecker]

Besides, this is typical propaganda move:

Die Welt - June 5, 2022
Edward Luttwak
"The curious and strange thing about Russia is that even if it didn't have nuclear weapons, it would be impossible to achieve a Ukrainian victory in the sense that the Russians would be forced to withdraw completely, maybe even from Crimea".

Edward Luttwak is telling that this is unlikely that Ukraine will free Crimea. And kremling puppet Veleor trying to show it as an example for statement "Ukraine is unlikely to get victory". Trying to use verbaly similar thesis to prove his statement.
Far example: I'm telling "Oh, i can't jump up to the Moon" , Veleor: "Johhny tells us that he can't jump"

Ha ha Edward Luttwak, my himself, told pretty the sama things as me here:

Russia is only doing an UN approved police action, same as the US has been doing around the world for decades. That's why the US isn't becoming formally involved this time, even though they are handing over all kinds of money and armament to the Ukraine on the sly.

Do you think those police actions were something that the people of many of those countries loved? Of course not. They died for their rebellious activities, just like what's happening to Ukraine.

Here's what some American soldiers think about all the police actions they were forced into on behalf of the UN police-keeping policies. Don't blame Russia that they are being forced into doing the same things. Rather, back off and listen-to/obey Mother Russia.

The following video is kinda old.

Norwegian Soldiers Lip Sync to "Kosovo" - MUST SEE! [CC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu8Iotgll8A

[suchmoon]

Russia is only doing an UN approved police action

Must be some Russian knock-off version of UN that "approved" it. Don't be shy, give us the link to the Kremlin conspiratard blog that fed you this bullshit.

[BADecker]

Russia is only doing an UN approved police action

Must be some Russian knock-off version of UN that "approved" it. Don't be shy, give us the link to the Kremlin conspiratard blog that fed you this bullshit.

Here are two sites:

https://www.newsfromtheperimeter.com/home/2022/5/11/russia-started-the-war-and-other-fallacies

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/is-russia-part-of-the-un-and-what-is-article-51-of-the-un-charter-3584587

Do your own search to find many more.

https://europerenaissance.com/2022/03/01/putin-is-right-united-nations-charter-51/

Did the UN Security Counsel admonish Putin?

[DaRude]

Following that logic Aiden Aslin wasn't a mecenary in Syria as well if he also signed some form there?

It's easy: If the main criteria for you is "to be paid" it's easy to say that every russian soldier is a mercenary in terms of international law. russia didn't declare a war to Ukraine, only some kind of "special operation",  so all it's soldiers on ukraine territory it's a mercenaries. Without a proper (in terms of russian law) procedure they are going to another country to fight because of the fat they get paid for it.

So, DaRude trying to tell us that if Ukraine will sentence to death russian soldiers it will be good. Understood

Again, about "denazificators":

Translation: "I don't believe in anything, I'm here to do violence"

Patch of the dead Wagner merc. At least this one will not be able "to do violence" anymore.

Whoa, bite your tongue! With such criteria, you're labeling all those blokes from US and NATO during all those "operations" mercenaries? Careful, don't bite the hand that feeds you,  they're the ones that are literally paying the bills for all of this now, wouldn't want to upset them. Need to come up with a more hypocritical two-faced clever criteria, like you're a mercenary if you get paid.*

*Unless you're part of an alliance that starts with NAT*  

[Newlifebtc]

The way I'm seeing the problem of Ukraine and Russian I don't think that the problem been something that end any moment from this period. If time is not taken Ukraine will you lose everything they have because of this problem because it is quite clear that Russian is stronger than Ukraine but we need it the intervention of world power to solve the problem between the two countries and if everybody or every country ignore to reconcile the problem that is ongoing between Russia and Ukraine it will cause disaster in both countries

[tvbcof]

On the Wagner thing, I have to say that making use of them undercuts the Russian excuse for their Ukraine actions as being based on ethical principles, and 'de-nazification' in particular (which I've never put much stock in anyway.)  I've never heard anyone claim that these Wagner personnel are any 'better' than the average mercenary group, and nobody puts up much of a denial that straight-up neo-nazi influences exist in at least some of them.

Whether these cretins moon-light in human trafficking and that sort of thing like the the West's preferred PMCs (e.g., Erik Prince's outfits), I do not know.  Haven't researched it much, but it would surprise me if they did _not_.

[johhnyUA]

It's easy: If the main criteria for you is "to be paid" it's easy to say that every russian soldier is a mercenary in terms of international law. russia didn't declare a war to Ukraine, only some kind of "special operation",  so all it's soldiers on ukraine territory it's a mercenaries. Without a proper (in terms of russian law) procedure they are going to another country to fight because of the fat they get paid for it.

Bla bla bla

So, as i see, you don't mind and agree with the idea that of russia didn't proclaime a war to Ukraine we can consider russian soldiers as mercs and can sentence them to death? Ok. Fair deal i think. If russians will shot this guys we should do the same with russian mercenaries.

[DaRude]

It's easy: If the main criteria for you is "to be paid" it's easy to say that every russian soldier is a mercenary in terms of international law. russia didn't declare a war to Ukraine, only some kind of "special operation",  so all it's soldiers on ukraine territory it's a mercenaries. Without a proper (in terms of russian law) procedure they are going to another country to fight because of the fat they get paid for it.

Bla bla bla

So, as i see, you don't mind and agree with the idea that of russia didn't proclaime a war to Ukraine we can consider russian soldiers as mercs and can sentence them to death? Ok. Fair deal i think. If russians will shot this guys we should do the same with russian mercenaries.

You funny. You can consider whatever you want, just make sure such "considerations" won't apply to NATO

‘For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law’

[be.open]

On the Wagner thing, I have to say that making use of them undercuts the Russian excuse for their Ukraine actions as being based on ethical principles, and 'de-nazification' in particular (which I've never put much stock in anyway.)  I've never heard anyone claim that these Wagner personnel are any 'better' than the average mercenary group, and nobody puts up much of a denial that straight-up neo-nazi influences exist in at least some of them.

Unfortunately you are right. I think this is the case when you can not clean the cesspool and not get dirty with shit yourself.

All in all, I don't understand why there is so much fuss about a few foreign mercenaries who have managed to get under the show whipping (which they probably deserved by their actions). Let me remind you that a couple of weeks ago in Kyiv, Russian soldier Vadim Shishimarin was sentenced to life imprisonment. Why shouldn't those who like to remember the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War remember this episode, when a prisoner of war was convicted by a civil court? Why tantrum after the usual symmetrical response? Or does someone here naively think that some other verdict awaits the Azov militants captured in Mariupol?

[paxmao]

The matter is still the same, the RF is not only showing disrespect for PoWs, they are even making a point of killing them in public. What can you expect if you are an RF captured soldier and there are no officers present?

You've got it all mixed up again. The trial of the mercenaries took place in the DPR, from the point of view of Russia it is an independent state, from the point of view of Ukraine it is the Donetsk region within Ukraine. Putin is a powerful man, but he has no power over the Supreme Court of a sovereign state (he doesn't even have power over Russia's Supreme Court).

Of the countries that really matter to the case, this "independent state" is only recognised by RF and only sustained thanks to the RF money and weaponry. Stop pretending that something in the RF or the "republics" is done without the seal of the Tzar, nobody is going to believe you.

Again, you can make any argument you want, it does not change the chances for the RF invading army PoWs.

Ukraine may actually be following it at government level - you can follow the convention even if you do not recognise it.

The matter is still the same, the RF is not only showing disrespect for PoWs, they are even making a point of killing them in public. What can you expect if you are an RF captured soldier and there are no officers present?

I heard its even worse if officer is present

Officers of the Ukrainian defence army are there to implement the official policies. As of now, the official policy is to follow the rules of war and the Geneva Convention as far as I know. There may be groups in Ukraine that may not have such a degree of discipline, but that is a completely different matter from having an official policy of classing PoWs as "terrorists" and kill them.

All in all, this simply makes life much harder for both RF and Ukrainian soldiers.

I'd be careful challenging independence on the grounds of being sustained thanks to other nation's money and weaponry.
...

The latest bill, which had been delayed for a week by the objection of Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, includes money for logistical support and training for Ukrainian military and national security forces, and for a fund intended to secure the continuity of Ukraine’s government.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220609211642/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/05/20/upshot/ukraine-us-aid-size.html


As far as mercenaries, I believe to become Ukrainian citizen they would have to give up their previous citizenship as Ukraine doesn't allow dual citizenship, which apparently didn't happen. How are they different from other mercenaries, or is the claim that there are no mercenaries at all in Ukraine and all foreign fighters fall under Geneva convention now because they signed some paper with UA army? Following that logic Aiden Aslin wasn't a mecenary in Syria as well if he also signed some form there?

Are you misinterpreting what I say on purpose or is it that you are really missing the point? The "statelets" were created by the RF invading them and declaring them as "independent" - AKA stealing the territory from Ukraine.

Ukraine is independent because the majority of Ukrainians would rather not be under Adolf Putin's thumb but mainly because it is a country that is widely recognised as such by most, if not all, nations. The "independent" satellite regions of the RF empired have simply been invaded by the RF and then "declared" independent. Again, just a handful of countries recognise them - all pretty much directly linked to Adolf Putin. It is just plainly ridiculous that you try to compare that with Ukraine.

As for your display of "evidence" of western support to a widely recognised independent country... nothing new. This war is burning many supplies from both many estates and particularly the US. This includes training in some quite new and sophisticated systems.

On the Geneva convention, Ukraine has declared to be abided to it on regards to PoWs.

This is pretty much what I expected to read from you. Adolf Putin's government  killing POW = justice. If Ukraine defence army ever thinks of doing the same = Terrorism / crimes. This type of bullshit fits well on the RF controlled media, but people here can tell a troll.

There is some difference between the torture and murder of Russian prisoners without trial and investigation, and between the trial of foreign mercenaries. If you don't see it or refuse to see it, that says a lot about you.

Yes, it does say a lot, to be precise that I do not believe in nor give a camel's ass for the legitimacy and fairness of a trial in a country that does not exist, with a tribunal that is not legitimate and a law that is wet paper when Adolf Putin decides it does not serve his purposes. That is exactly what it says.

Re tortures and other allegations... well, you could try to prove it but the RF has stopped the work of the people who investigate so... your "word" and the RF censored media senseless talk to be taken again for it.

And once again, this is not about me supporting anything outside the rules of war, is about Adolf Putin killing with a fake trial PoWs, which in turn puts at risk the RF captured soldiers.

Russia is only doing an UN approved police action

Must be some Russian knock-off version of UN that "approved" it. Don't be shy, give us the link to the Kremlin conspiratard blog that fed you this bullshit.

I have to admire you for trying to make sense of this dude's allegations. Careful with that prefrontal lobe.

e.g. "Did the security council admonish Putin?" - RF is a permanent member of the SC and has veto power. Either the guy does not know or thinks other do not know.

It's easy: If the main criteria for you is "to be paid" it's easy to say that every russian soldier is a mercenary in terms of international law. russia didn't declare a war to Ukraine, only some kind of "special operation",  so all it's soldiers on ukraine territory it's a mercenaries. Without a proper (in terms of russian law) procedure they are going to another country to fight because of the fat they get paid for it.

Bla bla bla

So, as i see, you don't mind and agree with the idea that of russia didn't proclaime a war to Ukraine we can consider russian soldiers as mercs and can sentence them to death? Ok. Fair deal i think. If russians will shot this guys we should do the same with russian mercenaries.

And this is something that Adolf Putin may even be happy to hear about if it happened. Most of the young Russians that are stupid or desperate enough to join the RF army have already been killed, captured or are at the front wishing to be back home. The only chance of getting new recruits is trying to generate hate - as of now he only has indifference and opposition and that does not win wars.

[paxmao]

On the Wagner thing, I have to say that making use of them undercuts the Russian excuse for their Ukraine actions as being based on ethical principles, and 'de-nazification' in particular (which I've never put much stock in anyway.)  I've never heard anyone claim that these Wagner personnel are any 'better' than the average mercenary group, and nobody puts up much of a denial that straight-up neo-nazi influences exist in at least some of them.

Unfortunately you are right. I think this is the case when you can not clean the cesspool and not get dirty with shit yourself.

All in all, I don't understand why there is so much fuss about a few foreign mercenaries who have managed to get under the show whipping (which they probably deserved by their actions). Let me remind you that a couple of weeks ago in Kyiv, Russian soldier Vadim Shishimarin was sentenced to life imprisonment. Why shouldn't those who like to remember the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War remember this episode, when a prisoner of war was convicted by a civil court? Why tantrum after the usual symmetrical response? Or does someone here naively think that some other verdict awaits the Azov militants captured in Mariupol?

I believe he has been sentenced to life in prison precisely because he violated the convention by shooting an unarmed old guy on a bike, filmed on video and confessed. I would myself doubt of the fairness of a tribunal on war times, but the proofs on this case are beyond doubt.

In the case of an armed conflict not of an international character, serious violations of article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts committed against persons...
Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds,...;

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml


On regards to the soldiers captured in Mariupol, again, if there is an ideological trial, it leaves the door open for similar treatments of RF soldiers. Being a "nazi", wearing a tatoo or expressing views are not in themselves crimes, is just an ideology. Only acts committed by individuals may be crimes.

 It is curious how by Adolf Putin stating that "this is not a war", makes the acts of RF soldiers in Ukraine fall quite in the definition of terrorism - killing people in a foreign country, destroying infrastructure and all that while getting paid for doing so - terrorist mercenaries I guess... it cannot get any uglier uh?

[tvbcof]

On the Wagner thing, I have to say that making use of them undercuts the Russian excuse for their Ukraine actions as being based on ethical principles, and 'de-nazification' in particular (which I've never put much stock in anyway.)  I've never heard anyone claim that these Wagner personnel are any 'better' than the average mercenary group, and nobody puts up much of a denial that straight-up neo-nazi influences exist in at least some of them.

Unfortunately you are right. I think this is the case when you can not clean the cesspool and not get dirty with shit yourself.

I'd save Wagner services for Finland and Sweden if it comes to that.  I don't think there would be the same sorts of ethical arguments used in this element of the conflict in that neck of the woods.

Honestly, deferring the use of entities such as Wagner would be a pretty meaningful show of strength at this point for the Russians if they can avoid it.  If they want to shovel money at favored business owners (again, as the Americans do for their PMCs) they could probably accomplish it in other operations around the world.  Especially the Middle East, but with the sanctions and all of the issues that will provoke there should be all kinds of missions for them all around the world.

All in all, I don't understand why there is so much fuss about a few foreign mercenaries who have managed to get under the show whipping (which they probably deserved by their actions). Let me remind you that a couple of weeks ago in Kyiv, Russian soldier Vadim Shishimarin was sentenced to life imprisonment. Why shouldn't those who like to remember the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War remember this episode, when a prisoner of war was convicted by a civil court? Why tantrum after the usual symmetrical response? Or does someone here naively think that some other verdict awaits the Azov militants captured in Mariupol?

If the civilian court is open and fair, I've got no problem with that.  Especially if the Russians won't supply justice for crimes (e.g., Sp4 Green and his honorable discharge after the rape and murder of an Iraqi girl and murder of her family.)  Ukraine should expect comparable treatment of their captured criminals of course.  I have a beef with foreign militaries getting things like 'visiting forces agreement' deals where, by default, civilian courts (or domestic tribunals in some cases) are not in the loop for domestic crimes committed by the visiting/occupying soldiers.

In the case of mercenaries, I've got no problem with them getting the death penalty for nothing more than getting caught in-country if that's what a civilian court wants to do.  Local militias capturing them and applying whatever justice they are inclined to would be even more satisfying.  SF personnel from third-party nations and spies, same.  Those who cannot stand the heat should stay out of the kitchen.

[suchmoon]

https://europerenaissance.com/2022/03/01/putin-is-right-united-nations-charter-51/

I was hoping for an exceptionally shitty "source" but you still managed to surprise me, well done:

President Putin’s special military operation to defend the people of Donbas from an imminent general offensive by the Jewish-Nazi regime in Kiev is fully justified
[...]

It'd be a serious challenge to make up something more ridiculous than that.

Did the UN Security Counsel admonish Putin?

Russia has a veto in the Security Council. The General Assembly did "admonish" Putin with an overwhelming majority.

[be.open]

Meanwhile, Lyusya Arestovich seems to be already contemplating her new career as Putin's undercover agent.

Where (will be) all these European armies, which in most cases are demonstrative amusing troops, incapable of solving the tasks of defending their country and their supranational formations such as NATO and the EU? Where will they stop the union of Ukraine and Russia? And Belarus in addition.

update:

I'd save Wagner services for Finland and Sweden if it comes to that.  I don't think there would be the same sorts of ethical arguments used in this element of the conflict in that neck of the woods.

I'll answer anyway. Many people in Russia were outraged to the core by videos of torture and murder of Russian prisoners of war. Many have significantly changed their minds about the operation in Ukraine and went to the military registration and enlistment office to sign up as volunteers. However, it was not easy to take part in the operation if you have no real combat experience behind you - you are put on the reserve, but then nothing happens. In essence, these people have only two ways - to take a training course in Gudermes and get into the Chechen regiment of Kadyrov, or to enlist in Wagner. Chechnya regularly delivers replenishment to Ukraine at a rate of about 200 people a week, but judging by the videos and photos, there are mostly people from the Caucasus. For people with a Slavic appearance with no combat experience who want to take part in the operation in Ukraine, Wagner turns out to be the only option. There is another option to go as a volunteer to Mariupol, but it does not involve participation in hostilities, but only restoration work, etc. In general, I share your point of view about Wagner, but this does not negate what I said above - this is almost the only option to get to the front in the absence of mobilization in Russia.

In other words, those Wagnerites who are now storming the Donbass are more likely not hardened soldiers of fortune, but the most ardent volunteers.

[BADecker]

But the war won't last. Already there is growing sentiment in America against the money being spent in Ukraine while American people are feeling the brunt of poverty in all their living conditions... inflation, gas and diesel prices, empty stores, etc.


Ukraine Fears It Might Lose Western Support Over "War Fatigue"

The US and its allies have committed billions of dollars in weapons, but some Western European leaders have been calling for a negotiated solution to end the fighting, an idea Ukrainian officials have rejected.

"The fatigue is growing, people want some kind of outcome [that is beneficial] for themselves, and we want [another] outcome for ourselves," Zelensky said.

The current situation on the battlefield is not looking good for Ukraine. An advisor to Zelensky said Thursday that they are losing between 100 and 200 troops each day as Russia continues to make slow but steady gains in the east.

Zelensky has made clear that his goal is to drive Russia out of the territory it has captured since February 24, which would require a massive military offensive.

...

[be.open]

And fresh news from Ukrainian propaganda.

According to preliminary estimates of animal rights activists, Putin's army in Ukraine has already eaten about 5,000 dogs.

It is strange that the dogs were not raped before they were eaten. Tremble Europe, the Russians are coming.

[johhnyUA]

just make sure such "considerations" won't apply to NATO

Why so? You're NATO agent or what? Why you against the same treatment for NATO as for others?

In the case of mercenaries, I've got no problem with them getting the death penalty for nothing more than getting caught in-country if that's what a civilian court wants to do.  Local militias capturing them and applying whatever justice they are inclined to would be even more satisfying.  SF personnel from third-party nations and spies, same.  Those who cannot stand the heat should stay out of the kitchen.

As i said above, any russian soldier can be considered as merc, since russia didn't declare a war to Ukraine.

[be.open]

In the case of mercenaries, I've got no problem with them getting the death penalty for nothing more than getting caught in-country if that's what a civilian court wants to do.  Local militias capturing them and applying whatever justice they are inclined to would be even more satisfying.  SF personnel from third-party nations and spies, same.  Those who cannot stand the heat should stay out of the kitchen.

As i said above, any russian soldier can be considered as merc, since russia didn't declare a war to Ukraine.

Johnny, this sword is double-edged because Ukraine didn't declare war on Russia either. And if Ukraine has 500 Russian soldiers in captivity, then Russia has 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers in captivity. Think about it at your leisure (because your chances of being captured by the Russians are also not illusory).

[paxmao]

In the case of mercenaries, I've got no problem with them getting the death penalty for nothing more than getting caught in-country if that's what a civilian court wants to do.  Local militias capturing them and applying whatever justice they are inclined to would be even more satisfying.  SF personnel from third-party nations and spies, same.  Those who cannot stand the heat should stay out of the kitchen.

As i said above, any russian soldier can be considered as merc, since russia didn't declare a war to Ukraine.

Johnny, this sword is double-edged because Ukraine didn't declare war on Russia either. And if Ukraine has 500 Russian soldiers in captivity, then Russia has 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers in captivity. Think about it at your leisure (because your chances of being captured by the Russians are also not illusory).

You are just throwing numbers, none of that is true. Lame.