[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[jehst]

I agree. If we do it bounty-style, I'm willing to donate 200 XMR through an escrow so that you will receive the funds upon delivery of the finished product.

[1714137481]

1714137481

[TheKoziTwo]

I agree. If we do it bounty-style, I'm willing to donate 200 XMR through an escrow so that you will receive the funds upon delivery of the finished product.

Yep, me too. I will donate at least 200 XMR, maybe more depending on the plan.

I suggest smooth as escrow.

[David Latapie]

Atrides' Freebazaar for Monero donation pledge

Unconditional
Total = 4200 XMR

• pa 2000 XMR
• dnaleor 100 XMR
• smooth 250 XMR
• pwrz 100 XMR
• generalizethis 50 XMR
• ajiekceu 500 XMR
• Shrikez 100 XMR
• binaryFate 100 XMR
• Shrikez 100 XMR
• anonymous #1 800 XMR
• anonymous #2 100 XMR
• anonymous #3 2200 XMR

Condition: bounty-style (to be developped)
Total = 920 XMR

• TheKoziTwo 200 XMR
• jehst 200 XMR
• iCEBREAKER 500 XMR
• jplum1556 50 XMR

Grand total = 5 120 XMR
Escrow

• smooth (TheKoziTwo, David Latapie, Atrides)
• lyth0s

Proposed timeline

1. Decide whether FreeBazaar will fork from OpenBazaar or will start from scratch (to be discussed with both FreeBazaar donators and OpenBazaar developpers)
2. Analyse OpenBazaar's source code
3. Develop a reliable monero escrow system without multisig
4. Develop an API for integration with Monero wallets (including if possible mymonero)

[dewdeded]

Just curious, why is no darknet market that I've heard of built completely around Monero?

Why hasn't anyone here made one?

Because Monero is still being developed. Correctly, as of today, all serious darknets are operating (trustless) multi-sig-escrow-process, so they require Cryptocurrencies with good proven MS escrow features/process, which is a feature that isn't built today in Monero.

As assured before (by Monero community members with good connections and knowledge in DM operating scene), when both sides are ready Monero project (with software and ecosystem) and DM scene is ready (admins: with building trust in Moneros stability, hopefully chosing cryptonote technology as the prefered privacy coin, users/vendors: getting to know about Monero, learning Monero-usage incl. the multi-sig-escrow process, building trust, having easy access to Monero via exchangers, enough secure cashout possibilites are established) there will be big, leading Darkmarkets that will list Monero.
(Not all big ones from the start, but 40% up to 60% of the big ones like 3 out of 5, could be reached.)

But it will take around 12 months. Also remember it's a big, big step and major game changer for the whole DM community, they all (users, admin and vendors) have to reach an agreements about which anon coin to support. They are all depending on each other.

Drugs users and vendors are heavily using themselves and dont have much computer skills.
---> usability and simpleness of use for CC clients and tools (like scripts helping vendors and admins in management of there multi-sig-escrow-proccesses), will have a strong influence which what is becoming the preferred solution


Dont be fooled by the fact that some unknown market with nearly zero users and no non scamming vendors may be testing Darkcoin (in order to create some hype for its market or at least get traffic from dark community), or Coin123-supporters are using an public darkmarket script like Bit-Wasp and change it to their coin and setting up another DM no one knows, wants and which has by design zero future.
Or desperated marketeers of weak anon coins, will donate bribe to desperated admins of very small, unrelevant DM markets that generates zero incoming, so they halfheartedly implement their coin as marketing gag (and in most cases the DM is gone 6 weeks later anyway or the cashin feature of the coin that paid the bribe is deactived for various reasons, like being buggy/unstabil, no demand, bad desgined, ...).

Don't worry, there is no other anon coin with a better position in this battle to succeed Bitcoin as preferred DarkMarket coin and Monero already has a very good standing/reputation in the mind of important and influental in the DM scene.

But still, there is a long way to go. And alot of work to do. Everybody should contribute as much as possible, of whatever he can offer that helps the project, not only code and donated coins, but also man power and free working time, for executing the many open tasks or to be developed services and solutions Monero needs.

[pa]

Atrides' Freebazaar for Monero donation pledge

Unconditional
No one (yet?)

Condition: bounty-style (to be developped)

• TheKoziTwo 200 XMR
• jehst 200 XMR

Escrow
smooth (TheKoziTwo, David Latapie)

smooth (if I remember correctly) indicated that he has donated unconditionally. I have donated 2000 xmr unconditionally.

[David Latapie]

smooth (if I remember correctly) indicated that he has donated unconditionally. I have donated 2000 xmr unconditionally.

Thanks. Updated. Were these amounts already sent? Which address?

Don't worry, there is no other anon coin with a better position in this battle to succeed Bitcoin as preferred DarkMarket coin and Monero already has a very good standing/reputation in the mind of important and influental in the DM scene.

I want to believe you but it would be easier if you could source your claims. Any link?

[Hueristic]

I would love to help but I bought in at about the peak and hold so little it would be a drop in the bucket.

but this Freemarket Idea is certainly the way to go. It is even better if it could be integrated into the gui wallet to be released. This should be a consideration from inception so as to make integration seamless from the getgo.

[tacotime]

I don't condone or support the use of Monero for anything illicit or illegal in most countries... and, even if I did, I'm not sure I'd suggest using Monero for these purposes. The coin has not been well studied academically or even by multiple audit, so there may be numerous compromises in security that are yet to be discovered. Monero is intended to be used to afford privacy to transactions for the average consumer who doesn't want their neighbour peeking in on what they're purchasing, but for something where you have three letter agencies chasing you I'm really not sure.

[primer-]

I don't condone or support the use of Monero for anything illicit or illegal in most countries... and, even if I did, I'm not sure I'd suggest using Monero for these purposes. The coin has not been well studied academically or even by multiple audit, so there may be numerous compromises in security that are yet to be discovered. Monero is intended to be used to afford privacy to transactions for the average consumer who doesn't want their neighbour peeking in on what they're purchasing, but for something where you have three letter agencies chasing you I'm really not sure.

Reassuring words from a lead dev.

[jwinterm]

I don't condone or support the use of Monero for anything illicit or illegal in most countries... and, even if I did, I'm not sure I'd suggest using Monero for these purposes. The coin has not been well studied academically or even by multiple audit, so there may be numerous compromises in security that are yet to be discovered. Monero is intended to be used to afford privacy to transactions for the average consumer who doesn't want their neighbour peeking in on what they're purchasing, but for something where you have three letter agencies chasing you I'm really not sure.

Reassuring words from a lead dev.

Sarcastic words from a lead troll

[tacotime]

I would love to help but I bought in at about the peak and hold so little it would be a drop in the bucket.

but this Freemarket Idea is certainly the way to go. It is even better if it could be integrated into the gui wallet to be released. This should be a consideration from inception so as to make integration seamless from the getgo.

I certainly wouldn't support this, and if the rest of the core team did I would probably leave the core team. Privacy is a design component of Monero there for numerous other reasons than to break laws, just as it is for Tor. OpenBazaar is an experiment on top of the Bitcoin protocol, and if it becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug marketplaces I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with Monero on any level.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I would love to help but I bought in at about the peak and hold so little it would be a drop in the bucket.

but this Freemarket Idea is certainly the way to go. It is even better if it could be integrated into the gui wallet to be released. This should be a consideration from inception so as to make integration seamless from the getgo.

I certainly wouldn't support this, and if the rest of the core team did I would probably leave the core team. Privacy is a design component of Monero there for numerous other reasons than to break laws, just as it is for Tor. OpenBazaar is an experiment on top of the Bitcoin protocol, and if it becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug marketplaces I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with Monero on any level.

I don't understand you. Are you saying private money is okay but private trading is not? How is a decentralized marketplace any less legitimate?

[cAPSLOCK]

I would love to help but I bought in at about the peak and hold so little it would be a drop in the bucket.

but this Freemarket Idea is certainly the way to go. It is even better if it could be integrated into the gui wallet to be released. This should be a consideration from inception so as to make integration seamless from the getgo.

I certainly wouldn't support this, and if the rest of the core team did I would probably leave the core team. Privacy is a design component of Monero there for numerous other reasons than to break laws, just as it is for Tor. OpenBazaar is an experiment on top of the Bitcoin protocol, and if it becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug marketplaces I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with Monero on any level.

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

[tacotime]

I don't understand you. Are you saying private money is okay but private marketplaces are not?

No; but I don't know what the net effect on virtual currencies in general will be if OpenBazaar really takes off for illicit trade, and I don't support the use of Monero to break laws. If governments wanted to shut down Monero tomorrow they could by computational attacks or by intimidation. Monero has bigger reasons for existing than to simply help you buy things online that are illegal.

[tacotime]

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I don't understand you. Are you saying private money is okay but private marketplaces are not?

No; but I don't know what the net effect on virtual currencies in general will be if OpenBazaar really takes off for illicit trade, and I don't support the use of Monero to break laws. If governments wanted to shut down Monero tomorrow they could by computational attacks or by intimidation. Monero has bigger reasons for existing than to simply help you buy things online that are illegal.

No it doesn't. If it can't be used for illegal purposes then it's worthless. The point of decentralized crypto is to protect us from unjust laws and allow us to decide for ourselves what is right and what isn't. That's what freedom is all about.

[5w00p]

I don't understand you. Are you saying private money is okay but private marketplaces are not?

No; but I don't know what the net effect on virtual currencies in general will be if OpenBazaar really takes off for illicit trade, and I don't support the use of Monero to break laws. If governments wanted to shut down Monero tomorrow they could by computational attacks or by intimidation. Monero has bigger reasons for existing than to simply help you buy things online that are illegal.

"They" could shut it down temporarily, but if I understood fluffypony correctly when I met him in person, he does not believe that a project such as Monero could ever be completely stopped.  I believe he said: "Information wants to be free."  (I hope I quoted him verbatim)

And to continue, paraphrasing his thoughts on the subject, as spoken to me when I asked him questions that prompted the discussion:

Now that the project has gained some recognition and the source code and related resources are in the public domain, even if all the core developers, by whatever means and for whatever reasons, were to cease development on the project, some other individuals would continue it where it left off. He even mentioned the Streisand Effect it might have, if an agent or organization of a nation-state were to attempt to intimidate, kill, maim, or otherwise stop him and/or other developers from continuing their work on the Monero Project.

[tacotime]

No it doesn't. If it can't be used for illegal purposes then it's worthless. The point of decentralized crypto is to protect us from unjust laws and allow us to decide for ourselves what is right and what isn't. That's what freedom is all about.

Respectfully disagree. The Bitcoin blockchain is set up to easily allow someone who knows any addresses belonging to you to see who has given you money and where you are sending it. This is unacceptable from a privacy standpoint -- you would never accept a bank publishing all your transactions out in the clear. This is precisely why Monero exists, to be actual virtual cash.

And, in any case, if you believe that there is a 100% foolproof system for payments that you can use to break any law you'd like to that exists online... well, I would say you'll probably find out soon enough that that's a bad idea the hard way.

[dEBRUYNE]

No it doesn't. If it can't be used for illegal purposes then it's worthless. The point of decentralized crypto is to protect us from unjust laws and allow us to decide for ourselves what is right and what isn't. That's what freedom is all about.

Respectfully disagree. The Bitcoin blockchain is set up to easily allow someone who knows any addresses belonging to you to see who has given you money and where you are sending it. This is unacceptable from a privacy standpoint -- you would never accept a bank publishing all your transactions out in the clear. This is precisely why Monero exists, to be actual virtual cash.

I would like to add this:

Privacy is important for many applications.

Do people want to do business using a currency that lets their competition see their customers and their supplies purchases? Where everyone can figure out their payroll or margins?

Likewise, for your personal life... do you want your landlord knowing when you got a raise? The grocery clerk knowing your net worth (and calling in some cat burger friends?). Your neighbours gossipping that you don't give enough to your church or that you spend too much on porn?

In the Bitcoin ecosystem itself, the lack of privacy is a grave systemic risk... Miners can distinguish transactions and discriminate in their processing, and doing so gives them a degree of control over the system which they ought not have, and wouldn't have if transactions were more private.
So, sure, there are also applications for increased transparency using Bitcoin, but you can always layer more transparency on top of a more private system... but not the other way around.

Reddit spends too much time listening folks with fairly extreme political views who view Bitcoin as a tool for advancing those views. I'm glad lots of people find Bitcoin interesting, but those things aren't my interest, and as a tool it can be used in many ways. The tool of privacy is important to everyone, to companies, to individuals, and even to the governments that represent them. Privacy can prevent crime, improve fairness and quality, and generally elevate the human condition. It's a value that everyone can support and a feature that everyone demands, even if they aren't always thinking about it.

[dewdeded]

I want to believe you but it would be easier if you could source your claims. Any link?

Obvious most discussion and information exchange about operating serious Dark Markets is private.
But what can be offered as "proof" or source:

See related discussions on http://thehub7dnl5nmcz5.onion (biggest and most influential public forum for DM operators, security auditors, pro vendors etc.)

deepdotweb.com is biggest dark market news outlet (most readers) and run by well known core dark market community members, it has 7 articles that recognize, introduce or rate Monero (i think 4 of 7 are very positve, 2 only good, 1 neutral, no negative writings about Monero there, but they clearly critize other bad anon coins and proposals), also only positive statements about Monero in the active comments sections,which are also influencing the readers)

There are a some general well known cryptocurrency experts, which have a very big pull and big influential in the security related decisions in the DM scene, these are Gregory Maxwell, Adam Beck and Krytopher Atlas, who all reviewed Monero and gave positives statements (non related to darkmarkets) about the project/implementation/goals.

Then there is a small number of only the DarkMarket scene known widely influential experts, mostly people, who do security audits and DarkMarket software and technology since years, for example Gwern  (gwern.net) and mdparity (Black Bank dev and operation & other DM software dev work, e.g. multisig escrow tools for sites and vendors) with had gave positives statements about CryptoNote in general and Monero in special. (I wont search URLs now, there is e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8238133 where discussed problems in bytecoin, but see none in Monero, i just dont have the time for this, as you know most public darkmarket/TOR related content isnt indexed by google (classic robots.txt: disallow *)
- i dont make this up, you can and will find these postings/statement on public sources "The Hub Forums", https://reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/, /r/themarketplace, other DarkMarket related sub-reddits or other related subreddits /r/crypto, /r/onions)

- Gwern can easily be asked about his opinion about Moneros pontential DM use, he has an board account:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=4750

- i can personally vouch for one well known german dev, operator and (part-) owner of multiple big DM projects (currently owning 100% of one of the 10 biggest DMs and having a 25% stake in two of the 10 biggest DMs), that i happen to know from old hacking-related meetups in the 90ties, that when ready and reasonable, he will be rolling out XMR support on his markets, because he is an Monero-supporter and CN-believer

You would need some knowledge and background about Dark Market scene to understand who is influential and important. You would have to read alot of clearnet or TOR-only related information sources to get the full overview what the important people think or belive in (very distributed, many general subreddits, every DM has its own webboard or subreddit), where important people like the site admins, well known auditors (see above) or big vendors post about their opinions.

I give u some more, I cant talk public about in chat.

To clearify:
Monero and any other coin will only be added at an big, leading darkmarkets, if it really adds real world, really demanded benefits to the DarkMarkets special ecosystem and its operating security, while staying easyly enough to use.
If this hard work can be done and Monero reaches an status, where its by experts and user community considered to best coin for DarkMarket usage:
then from my POV, it can be said for 100% Monero won't fail because, 50% of the big DM admins stay with bitcoin and 50% support Darkcoin or whatever, and so it cant reach the needed network effects and volumina to stay vivid and relevant in DM trade,
which endangerous the whole project, by also cutting 99% of the chances to become the leading privacy coin for legal usage. (because leading DM coin will be the same coin, as the leading one in the "legal usage" sector)