[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[fluffypony]

Does anyone have more info on XMR multisig? I only find requests for more info, but no definitive statements. Is anyone working on this at all, even on a theoretical level?

I guess what he means is that it's not going to happen right now. It's something that the Monero Research Lab will look at, but it's not something that they're actively pursuing at this stage (they have other things that they're focusing on that they'll be releasing over the coming while).

[ZuSinus]

Lost password from my wallet. You can reset it or recover?

[tacotime]

Source? Why?

Does anyone have more info on XMR multisig? I only find requests for more info, but no definitive statements. Is anyone working on this at all, even on a theoretical level?

The last we heard of it:

Anybody familiar with OpenBazaar source code? How big of an effort do you think it would be to implement an XMR version of it?

ideally we'd need multisig. we're working on a version of it where no one can tell you're using multisig on the blockchain (the tx look the same as any other tx).

And

You mean the keys actually involved in the multi sig look the same as usual keys in a ring?

yup. as opposed to bitcoin, where they are stored in the multisig script (and so you can publicly tell all those who are involved). this will be offchain tech, granted we can get it working in the near future.

Simplest multisig scheme is described here: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/brs.pdf

[BitmoreCoin]

Lost password from my wallet. You can reset it or recover?

If you remember the 24 words, you can reset your wallet.

[TheKoziTwo]

If Poloniex and Bter and Hitbtc can figure out how to detect XMR deposits and send XMR, then the groundwork has basically been done. There are a bunch of marketplaces that would be accepting XMR right now, such as Cryptsy, that aren't accepting XMR simply because it's not super-easy for them to figure it out.

But not publicly documented - and this what we want.
TheKoziTwo, as far as I remember, Poloniex got massive inspiration from your code at cryptonote.exchange.to for inclusion in Poloniex (and swaphole too). Could you prepare some documentation, that the community would happily polish?

I'll see what I can do. Perhaps a code example / working demo would be useful.

[David Latapie]

Lost password from my wallet. You can reset it or recover?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=721045.msg8148510#msg8148510

If Poloniex and Bter and Hitbtc can figure out how to detect XMR deposits and send XMR, then the groundwork has basically been done. There are a bunch of marketplaces that would be accepting XMR right now, such as Cryptsy, that aren't accepting XMR simply because it's not super-easy for them to figure it out.

But not publicly documented - and this what we want.
TheKoziTwo, as far as I remember, Poloniex got massive inspiration from your code at cryptonote.exchange.to for inclusion in Poloniex (and swaphole too). Could you prepare some documentation, that the community would happily polish?

I'll see what I can do. Perhaps a code example / working demo would be useful.

Thanks. It would.

[generalizethis]

it seems escrow/multisig is a good tool to bootstrap seller's reputation but is not really necessary afterwards when the seller is well established.
this is an interesting point of view - it would mean that openbazaar can use such seller bootstrapping with multisig/escrow using any crypto and than let buyers use monero simply out of convenience.

Exactly. If you look at Evolution's escrow system, the seller chooses what option to use: fe or escrow.

The buyer is faced with a very simple choice: if the fe is only offered, does the seller's reputation warrant the risk I'm taking of not getting my items (this has a lot to do with price and that you can still give a bad review and hurt the seller's reputation). If the seller has a good reputation and offers escrow, it's a no brainer. Someone might want to go onto Evolution and see how they do it; it's functioning and people like using it.

In simple terms it works like this:

A new seller with a low reputation needs to do one of two things to compete with established sellers:

1. Lower the price so much that buyers will take a risk by using fe.

2. Take escrow and give the buyer extra security until a good reputation can be established.

[jehst]

it seems escrow/multisig is a good tool to bootstrap seller's reputation but is not really necessary afterwards when the seller is well established.
this is an interesting point of view - it would mean that openbazaar can use such seller bootstrapping with multisig/escrow using any crypto and than let buyers use monero simply out of convenience.

Exactly. If you look at Evolution's escrow system, the seller chooses what option to use: fe or escrow.

The buyer is faced with a very simple choice: if the fe is only offered, does the seller's reputation warrant the risk I'm taking of not getting my items (this has a lot to do with price and that you can still give a bad review and hurt the seller's reputation). If the seller has a good reputation and offers escrow, it's a no brainer. Someone might want to go onto Evolution and see how they do it; it's functioning and people like using it.

In simple terms it works like this:

A new seller with a low reputation needs to do one of two things to compete with established sellers:

1. Lower the price so much that buyers will take a risk by using fe.

2. Take escrow and give the buyer extra security until a good reputation can be established.

FE is king. Just a simple measure of outcomes. Here are the two options:

1) Three-party multi-sig escrow where the escrow is kept in a free-floating cryptocurrency (e.g. BTC/XMR).
This is totally secure for the buyer, but the merchant takes a huge volatility risk. It's currently unpopular with bitcoin and will likely never become popular, hence my skepticism of OpenBazaar.

2) Centralized escrow + (FE).  This is totally unsecure for the buyer, as he loses control of his coins immediately, but it is totally secure for the seller. The seller offers a competitive discount to entice buyers, which the buyer likes. Buyers can minimize their risk by choosing a seller with an established, honest reputation. However, this does not prevent scams because a seller with a established reputation is sometimes just building trust so that he can steal an even bigger sum of money in the end. This is currently the most popular style on darknet markets with bitcoin.

To try to quantify it:

Option 1. Seller Satisfaction: 2, Buyer Satisfaction: 10
Option 2: Seller Satisfaction: 10 , Buyer Satisfaction: 5

Option 1 just absolutely sucks for sellers, so they won't do it unless they are doing it temporarily to build a reputation. Buyers are forced to take Option 2 or refuse to participate. Seller offers a nice discount to entice them. Buyers aren't happy but they can live with it. I'm just about finished writing a very long post about a third option that I believe is superior to Option 2, which I'll post in the main alt section shortly.

[generalizethis]

it seems escrow/multisig is a good tool to bootstrap seller's reputation but is not really necessary afterwards when the seller is well established.
this is an interesting point of view - it would mean that openbazaar can use such seller bootstrapping with multisig/escrow using any crypto and than let buyers use monero simply out of convenience.

Exactly. If you look at Evolution's escrow system, the seller chooses what option to use: fe or escrow.

The buyer is faced with a very simple choice: if the fe is only offered, does the seller's reputation warrant the risk I'm taking of not getting my items (this has a lot to do with price and that you can still give a bad review and hurt the seller's reputation). If the seller has a good reputation and offers escrow, it's a no brainer. Someone might want to go onto Evolution and see how they do it; it's functioning and people like using it.

In simple terms it works like this:

A new seller with a low reputation needs to do one of two things to compete with established sellers:

1. Lower the price so much that buyers will take a risk by using fe.

2. Take escrow and give the buyer extra security until a good reputation can be established.

FE is king. Just a simple measure of outcomes. Here are the two options:

1) Three-party multi-sig escrow where the escrow is kept in a free-floating cryptocurrency (e.g. BTC/XMR).
This is totally secure for the buyer, but the merchant takes a huge volatility risk. It's currently unpopular with bitcoin and will likely never become popular.

2) Centralized escrow + (FE).  This is totally unsecure for the buyer, as he loses control of his coins immediately, but it is totally secure for the seller. The seller offers a competitive discount to entice buyers, which the buyer likes. Buyers can minimize their risk by choosing a seller with an established, honest reputation. However, this does not prevent scams because a seller with a established reputation is sometimes just building trust so that he can steal an even bigger sum of money in the end. This is currently the most popular style on darknet markets with bitcoin.

To try to quantify it:

Option 1. Seller Satisfaction: 2, Buyer Satisfaction: 10
Option 2: Seller Satisfaction: 10 , Buyer Satisfaction: 5

Option 1 just absolutely sucks for sellers, so they won't do it unless they are doing it temporarily to build a reputation. Buyers are forced to take Option 2 or refuse to participate. Seller offers a nice discount to entice them. Buyers aren't happy but they can live with it. I'm just about finished writing a very long post about a third option that I believe is superior to Option 2, which I'll post in the main alt section shortly.

I knew you were pimping something.    Can you post a link here when it's done? 

[BoscoMurray]

I have access to my wallet, but did not note down the seed words (not sure if that's the correct term) when I created it. Is there a command to show me these seed words while I have my wallet open?

Thanks

[bitcoinrocks]

Since we're talking about cloning/forking OB, do you guys realize that in OB the items you're selling are stored on your node only and if your node is disconnected from the network then your items disappear from the marketplace?

http://forum.openbazaar.org/index.php?p=/discussion/105/need-a-permanent-node-to-set-up-a-store

Given the above, why would XMR, a coin concerned with privacy and anonymity, build anything on top of OB?  Am I missing something?

Not every bit of buying and selling needs to be anonymous (nor do I necessarily want people rifling through my finances just because I happen to transact with them non-anonymously), but if you do want to run a p2p marketplace anonymously, do it as a hidden service on Tor or i2p.

Perhaps someday there will be some tools/packages that make this easier to set up, or support for it built into the OB/FB code itself (as we plan to do with the Monero node and i2p). I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't understand this mentality within the context of XMR.  There are other marketplaces which are decentralized instead of p2p.  Why not use one of those?

[Febo]

I have access to my wallet, but did not note down the seed words (not sure if that's the correct term) when I created it. Is there a command to show me these seed words while I have my wallet open?

Thanks

I think you get them only at creation.

[jehst]

I knew you were pimping something.    Can you post a link here when it's done? 

Here it is:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=915035.msg10048719#msg10048719

I'm actually trying to be as coin-agnostic as possible in that thread because it's more about an idea than pimping any individual coin.

[pa]

I have access to my wallet, but did not note down the seed words (not sure if that's the correct term) when I created it. Is there a command to show me these seed words while I have my wallet open?

Thanks

in simplewallet, the command is "seed" (without quotation marks)

[BoscoMurray]

Great, ta very much

Edit: I get an error with this command. "The wallet is non-deterministic. Cannot display seed." Best to just create new wallet and send funds there? I'd like to have this seed words recovery option available to me if I need it at some stage.

[generalizethis]

I knew you were pimping something.   Can you post a link here when it's done?  

Here it is:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=915035.msg10048719#msg10048719

I'm actually trying to be as coin-agnostic as possible in that thread because it's more about an idea than pimping any individual coin.

To be fair, ideas are one of the most pimped things ever.

[aminorex]

To be fair, ideas are one of the most pimped things ever.

The imagery makes me reluctant to expose my ideas to anyone else, lest their purity be compromised.

[jehst]

To be fair, ideas are one of the most pimped things ever.

The imagery makes me reluctant to expose my ideas to anyone else, lest their purity be compromised.

You used the word "expose" on purpose, didn't you?

[aminorex]

To be fair, ideas are one of the most pimped things ever.

The imagery makes me reluctant to expose my ideas to anyone else, lest their purity be compromised.

You used the word "expose" on purpose, didn't you?

That, or else "ideas" is a metaphor.

[aerbax]

Great, ta very much

Edit: I get an error with this command. "The wallet is non-deterministic. Cannot display seed." Best to just create new wallet and send funds there? I'd like to have this seed words recovery option available to me if I need it at some stage.

Correct.  You likely created a wallet before the functionality was implemented.

Create a new wallet and send your coins there.