[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[kirilvvbg]

Well, I didn't know this - thanks for the info.
I guess I will be looking for another pool now... Unlucky me...

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[visdude]

I see moneromooo is already at it, Monero devs are amazing.

Pool mining would really be a nice and convenient feature in GUI. However, I do agree with xmr-eric's comment on there:

Personally, I don't like this feature, and feel we shouldn't include it. Pool mining is the one page in the wallet where we're suddenly relying on a third party. What qualifies a pool to be added to this list? Certainly cryptmonero.com isn't included since this pool is tied to Reddit-reported malware mining. So there is already a distinction between good and bad pools, and suddenly our devs are tasked with making that distinction. Suddenly our work begins to grow exponentially, especially if XMR really takes off and a hundred new pools appear and have to be evaluated. Who does the evaluating and what is the criteria?

Suddenly pool operators have an incentive to get in good graces with XMR devs? Already we can see MoneroWorld (where I personally mine, so I love it there) is at the top of the list?

What if one of the listed pools gets hacked, malware, or leaks private data? Are we partly responsible / could be sued? We have to wait for a whole release before we can change the code away from an adversarial pool?

This is not decentralized, and thus sort of goes against the spirit of The Monero Project.

I'm a big fan of adding a solo smart miner to the wallet. Not a fan of this.

Indeed, The Monero Project should not get itself mired in pool or market politics. Besides, there are already a multitude of pool mining guides out there.

A solo mining feature in GUI is totally fine as it is at the core of the decentralized nature of Monero and most if not all of the other cryptocurrencies. Besides, who doesn't want to participate in a lottery anyway and made easy at that?

[ACAB]

Dudes, the title of this thread is very specific and not meant for your personal cat fights. Get a motel room or something...or go find yourselves a boxing or an MMA gym and satisfy your macho-ness in the ring or octagon. I dont really care but please, don't derail this thread with your drama which nobody cares about. However, people do care about useful info on XMR which this thread is meant for.

To moderator: please clean out these garbage posts.

I agree. The fighting like little bitches needs to stop. This is a mature coin and deserves a mature audience. Not a kindergarten audience.

[M5M400]

The one missing pool (in this list - moneropools.com) is Minergate...

About dwarfpool - it is very unreliable (last evidence is from today - wrong stats, down for some time, at the end - half of coins are missing, at least mine). BUT, there is a big BUT - this is the only Monero pool that offers 2 very important, very simple (and yet, suprisingly for me, very hard to find) features: workername (well only digits, but still something) and worker monitoring (incl. mail notifications)... Now I am trying Minergate, but it is very difficult for me to get used to less information and less ability to control my rigs (and thus be sure that they work 24/7). I don't even see some estimation for my 24h earnings - WTF, is this real?!?! Guys, pool owners, please - this is 2017, not 2012-2014!!!

Please, forget minergate. If you have multiple rigs, it's quite easy to manage them via a local proxy. HAproxy is easy to set up and you can easily configure your pool/backup centrally. I did an example setup for one of my miners managing 30 rigs and he left dwarf behind without looking back

http://imgur.com/a/wrPw6 here's some example config I hacked together...

You could also easily use the csv status output of the status page to monitor if all of your miners are connected. Further, grep the client IPs from the haproxy.log to identify which miners are online and build your own custom monitoring with zabbix or nagios... endless possibilities

[Hueristic]

I see moneromooo is already at it, Monero devs are amazing.

Pool mining would really be a nice and convenient feature in GUI. However, I do agree with xmr-eric's comment on there:

Personally, I don't like this feature, and feel we shouldn't include it. Pool mining is the one page in the wallet where we're suddenly relying on a third party. What qualifies a pool to be added to this list? Certainly cryptmonero.com isn't included since this pool is tied to Reddit-reported malware mining. So there is already a distinction between good and bad pools, and suddenly our devs are tasked with making that distinction. Suddenly our work begins to grow exponentially, especially if XMR really takes off and a hundred new pools appear and have to be evaluated. Who does the evaluating and what is the criteria?

Suddenly pool operators have an incentive to get in good graces with XMR devs? Already we can see MoneroWorld (where I personally mine, so I love it there) is at the top of the list?

What if one of the listed pools gets hacked, malware, or leaks private data? Are we partly responsible / could be sued? We have to wait for a whole release before we can change the code away from an adversarial pool?

This is not decentralized, and thus sort of goes against the spirit of The Monero Project.

I'm a big fan of adding a solo smart miner to the wallet. Not a fan of this.

Indeed, The Monero Project should not get itself mired in pool or market politics. Besides, there are already a multitude of pool mining guides out there.

A solo mining feature in GUI is totally fine as it is at the core of the decentralized nature of Monero and most if not all of the other cryptocurrencies. Besides, who doesn't want to participate in a lottery anyway and made easy at that?

That's a good discussion on git, here was my recommendation.

What about separate releases? The one with the integrated pool release add the stratum and have the default local, therefore to change from mining on a local pool the user would have to enter one them self or just as easily add their pool to the list (maybe setup and auto msg to irc for the new pool to announce and scrape it?).

[Slydrule]

I am new to Monero and I have a couple of questions I am hoping the community will answer.  I should add I am not new to mining having mined about 15 other currencies over the last 3 years.

I am mining with about 6.2 Kh/s which according to the calculators should net me about .88 XMR per day.   I understand these calculators are just estimates and actual payouts are rarely as much as what the calculators predict but with XMR I am only getting about .56 XMR per day.   Even after adjusting for Claymore's fee and the pool fee I am getting about 66% of the estimate.  In my own experience this is an extremely low percentage.  I have tried 2 different pools, moneropool.com and monerohash.com with about the same result.

My first question, is this typical when mining XMR?

My second question, are there pools that are better than the two I have tried?

At the end of the day, the payout is all that matters in terms of profitability.  Normally if a pool pays out less than 80% of the estimate, I switch pools or I mine something else.  Monero is profitable for me at around .88 or even .8 XMR per day, but ETH and ZEC are far more profitable for me if I can expect only .56 XMR per day.

[visdude]

There's actually a more appropriate subforum called Pools (Altcoins).

[visdude]

I see moneromooo is already at it, Monero devs are amazing.

Pool mining would really be a nice and convenient feature in GUI. However, I do agree with xmr-eric's comment on there:

Personally, I don't like this feature, and feel we shouldn't include it. Pool mining is the one page in the wallet where we're suddenly relying on a third party. What qualifies a pool to be added to this list? Certainly cryptmonero.com isn't included since this pool is tied to Reddit-reported malware mining. So there is already a distinction between good and bad pools, and suddenly our devs are tasked with making that distinction. Suddenly our work begins to grow exponentially, especially if XMR really takes off and a hundred new pools appear and have to be evaluated. Who does the evaluating and what is the criteria?

Suddenly pool operators have an incentive to get in good graces with XMR devs? Already we can see MoneroWorld (where I personally mine, so I love it there) is at the top of the list?

What if one of the listed pools gets hacked, malware, or leaks private data? Are we partly responsible / could be sued? We have to wait for a whole release before we can change the code away from an adversarial pool?

This is not decentralized, and thus sort of goes against the spirit of The Monero Project.

I'm a big fan of adding a solo smart miner to the wallet. Not a fan of this.

Indeed, The Monero Project should not get itself mired in pool or market politics. Besides, there are already a multitude of pool mining guides out there.

A solo mining feature in GUI is totally fine as it is at the core of the decentralized nature of Monero and most if not all of the other cryptocurrencies. Besides, who doesn't want to participate in a lottery anyway and made easy at that?

That's a good discussion on git, here was my recommendation.

What about separate releases? The one with the integrated pool release add the stratum and have the default local, therefore to change from mining on a local pool the user would have to enter one them self or just as easily add their pool to the list (maybe setup and auto msg to irc for the new pool to announce and scrape it?).

It is indeed a very interesting discussion. I just think that apart from potential negative ramifications, including a pool mining feature in Monero Core is redundant. People are already pool mining with a whole host of currently available mining software and methods. However, I am not aware of a simple, uncomplicated way to solo mine XMR.

What if the mining reward is changed from the established winner-take-all "lottery" model to a distributed one in which "solo" miners get a piece of the reward according to their hashing share for each block mined -- sort of a built-in pool within Monero Core. In a sense, every "solo" miner is actually participating in pool mining but the mining pool in this case is the network/blockchain/protocol/Monero Core itself. It couldn't get more decentralized than that, thereby taking centralized external mining pools (privately run business enterprises) out of the equation.

I do not know if such a silly notion is even technically feasible but even if it is, I would imagine that it is going to be a daunting endeavor code wise.

Note: I originally posted this silly notion of mine several pages back.

[kurious]

I see moneromooo is already at it, Monero devs are amazing.

Pool mining would really be a nice and convenient feature in GUI. However, I do agree with xmr-eric's comment on there:

Personally, I don't like this feature, and feel we shouldn't include it. Pool mining is the one page in the wallet where we're suddenly relying on a third party. What qualifies a pool to be added to this list? Certainly cryptmonero.com isn't included since this pool is tied to Reddit-reported malware mining. So there is already a distinction between good and bad pools, and suddenly our devs are tasked with making that distinction. Suddenly our work begins to grow exponentially, especially if XMR really takes off and a hundred new pools appear and have to be evaluated. Who does the evaluating and what is the criteria?

Suddenly pool operators have an incentive to get in good graces with XMR devs? Already we can see MoneroWorld (where I personally mine, so I love it there) is at the top of the list?

What if one of the listed pools gets hacked, malware, or leaks private data? Are we partly responsible / could be sued? We have to wait for a whole release before we can change the code away from an adversarial pool?

This is not decentralized, and thus sort of goes against the spirit of The Monero Project.

I'm a big fan of adding a solo smart miner to the wallet. Not a fan of this.

Indeed, The Monero Project should not get itself mired in pool or market politics. Besides, there are already a multitude of pool mining guides out there.

A solo mining feature in GUI is totally fine as it is at the core of the decentralized nature of Monero and most if not all of the other cryptocurrencies. Besides, who doesn't want to participate in a lottery anyway and made easy at that?

That's a good discussion on git, here was my recommendation.

What about separate releases? The one with the integrated pool release add the stratum and have the default local, therefore to change from mining on a local pool the user would have to enter one them self or just as easily add their pool to the list (maybe setup and auto msg to irc for the new pool to announce and scrape it?).

It is indeed a very interesting discussion. I just think that apart from potential negative ramifications, including a pool mining feature in Monero Core is redundant. People are already pool mining with a whole host of currently available mining software and methods. However, I am not aware of a simple, uncomplicated way to solo mine XMR.

What if the mining reward is changed from the established winner-take-all "lottery" model to a distributed one in which "solo" miners get a piece of the reward according to their hashing share for each block mined -- sort of a built-in pool within Monero Core. In a sense, every "solo" miner is actually participating in pool mining but the mining pool in this case is the network/blockchain/protocol/Monero Core itself. It couldn't get more decentralized than that, thereby taking centralized external mining pools (privately run business enterprises) out of the equation.

I do not know if such a silly notion is even technically feasible but even if it is, I would imagine that it is going to be a daunting endeavor code wise.

Note: I originally posted this silly notion of mine several pages back.

It wouldn't be a 'sort of built-in pool' it would be simply a pool and need running / administering (by a third party).

[visdude]

I see moneromooo is already at it, Monero devs are amazing.

Pool mining would really be a nice and convenient feature in GUI. However, I do agree with xmr-eric's comment on there:

Personally, I don't like this feature, and feel we shouldn't include it. Pool mining is the one page in the wallet where we're suddenly relying on a third party. What qualifies a pool to be added to this list? Certainly cryptmonero.com isn't included since this pool is tied to Reddit-reported malware mining. So there is already a distinction between good and bad pools, and suddenly our devs are tasked with making that distinction. Suddenly our work begins to grow exponentially, especially if XMR really takes off and a hundred new pools appear and have to be evaluated. Who does the evaluating and what is the criteria?

Suddenly pool operators have an incentive to get in good graces with XMR devs? Already we can see MoneroWorld (where I personally mine, so I love it there) is at the top of the list?

What if one of the listed pools gets hacked, malware, or leaks private data? Are we partly responsible / could be sued? We have to wait for a whole release before we can change the code away from an adversarial pool?

This is not decentralized, and thus sort of goes against the spirit of The Monero Project.

I'm a big fan of adding a solo smart miner to the wallet. Not a fan of this.

Indeed, The Monero Project should not get itself mired in pool or market politics. Besides, there are already a multitude of pool mining guides out there.

A solo mining feature in GUI is totally fine as it is at the core of the decentralized nature of Monero and most if not all of the other cryptocurrencies. Besides, who doesn't want to participate in a lottery anyway and made easy at that?

That's a good discussion on git, here was my recommendation.

What about separate releases? The one with the integrated pool release add the stratum and have the default local, therefore to change from mining on a local pool the user would have to enter one them self or just as easily add their pool to the list (maybe setup and auto msg to irc for the new pool to announce and scrape it?).

It is indeed a very interesting discussion. I just think that apart from potential negative ramifications, including a pool mining feature in Monero Core is redundant. People are already pool mining with a whole host of currently available mining software and methods. However, I am not aware of a simple, uncomplicated way to solo mine XMR.

What if the mining reward is changed from the established winner-take-all "lottery" model to a distributed one in which "solo" miners get a piece of the reward according to their hashing share for each block mined -- sort of a built-in pool within Monero Core. In a sense, every "solo" miner is actually participating in pool mining but the mining pool in this case is the network/blockchain/protocol/Monero Core itself. It couldn't get more decentralized than that, thereby taking centralized external mining pools (privately run business enterprises) out of the equation.

I do not know if such a silly notion is even technically feasible but even if it is, I would imagine that it is going to be a daunting endeavor code wise.

Note: I originally posted this silly notion of mine several pages back.

It wouldn't be a 'sort of built-in pool' it would be simply a pool and need running / administering (by a third party).

My point is that all cryptocurrencies that I know of adopt the lump-sum/winner-take-all/lottery mining reward paradigm established by Bitcoin to be awarded to a single lucky miner/node that solves a block. Hence, centralized "external" mining pools became necessary to ensure that miners get a piece of that lump-sum reward pie (relative to hashing share) for each block the pool solves instead of waiting for eternity to hit the lottery solo mining.

What if it is technically feasible to code "within" Monero Core (or the protocol if that makes any sense) itself or in any cryptocurrency for that matter to instead distribute such reward to "solo" miners according to shares just like what centralized "external" mining pools are doing now. If this can somehow be implemented, why would there be a need for centralized "external" mining pools? The key is decentralization by taking centralized "external" mining pools totally out of the equation. Is this not what it is all about?

I am just attempting to think outside the box here...as silly as it is. But anything is possible, right? No harm in wishing.

[DiCE1904]

visdude are you describing p2pool ?

[visdude]

visdude are you describing p2pool ?

I am not entirely familiar with the inner workings of P2Pool but I remember it could not garner enough hashing power to compete with the big pools back in the day, hence it failed. I also remember its peculiarity of needing a special or customized version/release of certain mining software in conjunction with some mining hardware.  I surmised that it was still subject to Bitcoin's winner-take-all lottery mining reward implementation and therefore still functioned as an "external" mining pool (outside of core/protocol)...still had to compete with other centralized "external" pools for those winner-take-all block rewards to be divvied up among the participants. Is that an accurate assessment on my part? I mean, Bitcoin's block reward rule have not changed since the genesis block as far as I know.

The model that I am thinking of is for a cryptocurrency to have a pool-like block reward distribution in its core/protocol, i.e. based on hashing share of participating "solo" miners instead of the current winner-take-all lottery reward paradigm. Whether it can be technically implemented or not, I do not know as I am not a coder; just a user with a somewhat wild imagination. If it can be technically implemented, the motivation to establish centralized "external" pools would no longer exist then as the block reward is already divvied up according to shares out of the gate or from the get-go.

[hyc]

It is indeed a very interesting discussion. I just think that apart from potential negative ramifications, including a pool mining feature in Monero Core is redundant. People are already pool mining with a whole host of currently available mining software and methods. However, I am not aware of a simple, uncomplicated way to solo mine XMR.

A solo miner is already built in to monerod. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Both of my patches to Nvidia and AMD miners also support solo mining.

https://github.com/hyc/wolf-xmr-miner
https://github.com/hyc/ccminer-cryptonight

[ACAB]

visdude are you describing p2pool ?

I am not entirely familiar with the inner workings of P2Pool but I remember it could not garner enough hashing power to compete with the big pools back in the day, hence it failed. I also remember its peculiarity of needing a special or customized version/release of certain mining software in conjunction with some mining hardware.  I surmised that it was still subject to Bitcoin's winner-take-all lottery mining reward implementation and therefore still functioned as an "external" mining pool (outside of core/protocol)...still had to compete with other centralized "external" pools for those winner-take-all block rewards to be divvied up among the participants. Is that an accurate assessment on my part? I mean, Bitcoin's block reward rule have not changed since the genesis block as far as I know.

The model that I am thinking of is for a cryptocurrency to have a pool-like block reward distribution in its core/protocol, i.e. based on hashing share of participating "solo" miners instead of the current winner-take-all lottery reward paradigm. Whether it can be technically implemented or not, I do not know as I am not a coder; just a user with a somewhat wild imagination. If it can be technically implemented, the motivation to establish centralized "external" pools would no longer exist then as the block reward is already divvied up according to shares out of the gate or from the get-go.

I think its the same case today, still not enough hash power to warrant using it.

[CryptoRambler]

visdude are you describing p2pool ?

I am not entirely familiar with the inner workings of P2Pool but I remember it could not garner enough hashing power to compete with the big pools back in the day, hence it failed. I also remember its peculiarity of needing a special or customized version/release of certain mining software in conjunction with some mining hardware.  I surmised that it was still subject to Bitcoin's winner-take-all lottery mining reward implementation and therefore still functioned as an "external" mining pool (outside of core/protocol)...still had to compete with other centralized "external" pools for those winner-take-all block rewards to be divvied up among the participants. Is that an accurate assessment on my part? I mean, Bitcoin's block reward rule have not changed since the genesis block as far as I know.

The model that I am thinking of is for a cryptocurrency to have a pool-like block reward distribution in its core/protocol, i.e. based on hashing share of participating "solo" miners instead of the current winner-take-all lottery reward paradigm. Whether it can be technically implemented or not, I do not know as I am not a coder; just a user with a somewhat wild imagination. If it can be technically implemented, the motivation to establish centralized "external" pools would no longer exist then as the block reward is already divvied up according to shares out of the gate or from the get-go.

So then the current block rewards become something based on work performed, not based on some method of luck. This seems like a very good egalitarian voting system, where each vote counts as one that is deserved

[visdude]

It is indeed a very interesting discussion. I just think that apart from potential negative ramifications, including a pool mining feature in Monero Core is redundant. People are already pool mining with a whole host of currently available mining software and methods. However, I am not aware of a simple, uncomplicated way to solo mine XMR.

A solo miner is already built in to monerod. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Both of my patches to Nvidia and AMD miners also support solo mining.

https://github.com/hyc/wolf-xmr-miner
https://github.com/hyc/ccminer-cryptonight

I meant GUI-simple. Some of us gets horrified at the sight of a CLI window and I bet the majority of the "mainstream" population would feel or react similarly. So I was actually reiterating, acknowledging and being appreciative of the fact that a solo mining feature is currently being worked on in the Monero Wallet GUI though I am not too keen on the pool mining one for reasons already stated above. Isn't "mainstream" adoption the ultimate goal in order for a cryptocurrency to be successful after all?

[visdude]

visdude are you describing p2pool ?

I am not entirely familiar with the inner workings of P2Pool but I remember it could not garner enough hashing power to compete with the big pools back in the day, hence it failed. I also remember its peculiarity of needing a special or customized version/release of certain mining software in conjunction with some mining hardware.  I surmised that it was still subject to Bitcoin's winner-take-all lottery mining reward implementation and therefore still functioned as an "external" mining pool (outside of core/protocol)...still had to compete with other centralized "external" pools for those winner-take-all block rewards to be divvied up among the participants. Is that an accurate assessment on my part? I mean, Bitcoin's block reward rule have not changed since the genesis block as far as I know.

The model that I am thinking of is for a cryptocurrency to have a pool-like block reward distribution in its core/protocol, i.e. based on hashing share of participating "solo" miners instead of the current winner-take-all lottery reward paradigm. Whether it can be technically implemented or not, I do not know as I am not a coder; just a user with a somewhat wild imagination. If it can be technically implemented, the motivation to establish centralized "external" pools would no longer exist then as the block reward is already divvied up according to shares out of the gate or from the get-go.

So then the current block rewards become something based on work performed, not based on some method of luck. This seems like a very good egalitarian voting system, where each vote counts as one that is deserved

Yes. A paradigm shift from a competitive/gambling block reward model to a distributed or more accurately, a "cooperative" model. The nature or principle of Monero and other similar cryptocurrencies is unmistakably egalitarian in itself (all nodes are equal). So why not adopt the same principle in its mining reward implementation?

[jwinterm]

Some perspective:
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/

I also don't think there's anyway to setup cooperative mining. p2pool is the best option available for decentralized sharing of mining rewards. If you have some radically different implementation, it probably needs to be launched/tested on a different coin.

[Server2850Guy]

It is indeed a very interesting discussion. I just think that apart from potential negative ramifications, including a pool mining feature in Monero Core is redundant. People are already pool mining with a whole host of currently available mining software and methods. However, I am not aware of a simple, uncomplicated way to solo mine XMR.

A solo miner is already built in to monerod. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Both of my patches to Nvidia and AMD miners also support solo mining.

https://github.com/hyc/wolf-xmr-miner
https://github.com/hyc/ccminer-cryptonight

So, your two mods fully support Nvidea cards ? Which Cuda version do they use , and are they Pascal ready ... specialised ?
Monerod also supports Nvidea / cuda ?

[visdude]

Some perspective:
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/

I also don't think there's anyway to setup cooperative mining. p2pool is the best option available for decentralized sharing of mining rewards. If you have some radically different implementation, it probably needs to be launched/tested on a different coin.

Thanks for the link. Interesting stats.

I wasn't really suggesting that cooperative mining be introduced to Monero per se and hardforking it in the process late at this stage. It was just a reaction to the current development of a solo/pool mining feature in GUI which is in a similar vein as what has been in my mind all along that developed into a sort of thought experiment and wanted to explore the possibility of such a concept (co-op mining implementation). It would be exciting to see it implemented in a newly launched coin, even if it's just for a PoC that it is indeed "pool-proof" and therefore ultimately decentralized.