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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4540189 times)
liteon
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November 28, 2014, 03:12:01 PM
 #17441

Causing miners to leave to the point where nobody bothers anymore. Equilibriums

This may be true for you, but others will take your place and some will do that ten fold. Time will foster the need for more miners and a higher price will make this more worth while.
Have to agree with this words 100%.

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November 28, 2014, 03:18:10 PM
 #17442

It would be great if coders try to optimize the open source nvidia GPU miner. And keep the result open source.  Wink

Doing that, coin would lose hit value, as it would be mass mined and sold cheap.
Time: now, price: low. Adding more easyness to minning would not bring a good news. Not before value of it jumps like 20x from this price.
Then it could be reasonable to reduce it again.

I can't follow your logic. If anything gets "mass mined", the hash rate increases, that means less coins for each of the miners (at equal hash rate), which typically means selling higher to cover fixed costs.

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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November 28, 2014, 03:33:46 PM
Last edit: November 28, 2014, 07:30:35 PM by jehst
 #17443

I've spent probably 40+ hours obsessively reading hundreds of pages regarding XMR here on bitcointalk.org in addition to every thread on reddit, every thread on monero.cc forum, the CryptoNote white paper, nearly all of fluffypony, Risto Pietila, and others' posts. I've compiled and ran Monero. I am not an XMR or cryptocurrency expert, but my conclusions about XMR are as follows:

Strengths:

- Fair distribution. XMR's emission schedule and lack of pre-mine/instamine means that newcomers do not need to worry about buying into a coin where early adopters are solely interested in pumping and dumping, leaving the newcomers as bagholders. Someone acquiring XMR today and in the near future will get them at a cost within the same order of magnitude as early adopters.
- XMR, due to its fair distribution and good liquidity, is a strong candidate to occupy the #1 or #2 position in the privacy niche of the cryptocurrency market.
- XMR, due to its completely new codebase, different hashing algorithm, and good liquidity  is also a strong candidate to occupy the #1 or #2 position in what I call the "catastrophic hedge niche" of the crypto currency market. (If you would like to read more about my thoughts on XMR as a hedge, you can ready my post here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=624223.msg9679903#msg9679903 )
- A small proportion of funds in XMR will occupy these two important niches at once (neither of which can be adequately addressed by bitcoin). If we assume that these two niches together should account for 5% of the total cryptocurrency market cap, XMR seems to be an incredible expected value (EV) play at this level (1.5 mBTC:1 XMR)
- XMR devs, due to their small stakes in the coin and honest behavior thus far do not seem to be interested in pumping and dumping XMR. They are genuinely interested in the technology.
- XMR has drawn positive attention from many respected members of the bitcoin community, including Gregory Maxwell and many hero members.
- XMR has at least one (and probably several) wealthy backers, such as Mr. Pietila who will support the coin over the long haul.

Weaknesses:
Most of these are soft factors. Please do not take offense to any of this. I am not attacking anyone's lifestyle choices or means. These are simply the facts that I've gathered.

- No one involved is working on XMR full-time. (All core devs are working part-time as they cannot make a living purely off XMR.) Essentially, XMR is a multi-million dollar project with no one working full-time. At least one dev is working on a coin other than XMR at the same time.
Edit: According to othe, there are other non-core devs who are contributing more than part-time on XMR.
- Due to XMR's fair distribution (which is a major strength), the devs do not own a significant amount of XMR (perhaps fewer than 50,000 XMR collectively) which means that they are inadequately funded. Even if a significant increase in value occurs and they earn 10x their investment, they will still lack the means to work on XMR full-time.
- XMR seems to be funded by mainly one person, Risto Pietila,
Correction: XMR is funded primarily by the core devs.
- Devs were not part of the original CrypoNote team and are admittedly not as familiar with the codebase as the devs of other CryptoNote coins. They therefore experience challenges improving the codebase and making it maintainable.
- Blockchain Bloat. XMR's Ring-signatures are data intensive, and the XMR blockchain will be somewhere between 5-10 times the size of bitcoin's for an equivalent number of transactions. I don't consider this to be a significant weakness. Monero's blockchain will likely be much smaller than bitcoin's anyway.

I will correct and update this list as necessary. Thank you for reading.

Year 2021
Bitcoin Supply: ~90% mined
Supply Inflation: <1.8%
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November 28, 2014, 03:41:31 PM
 #17444

I've spent probably 40+ hours obsessively reading hundreds of pages regarding XMR here on bitcointalk.org in addition to every thread on reddit, every thread on monero.cc forum, the CryptoNote white paper, nearly all of fluffypony, Risto Pietila, and others' posts. I've compiled and ran Monero. I am not an XMR or cryptocurrency expert, but my conclusions about XMR are as follows:

Strengths:

...

Weaknesses:

- No one involved is working on XMR full-time. (All devs are working part-time as they cannot make a living purely off XMR.) Essentially, XMR is a multi-million dollar project with no one working full-time. At least one dev is working on a coin other than XMR at the same time.
...

I will correct and update this list as necessary. Thank you for reading.

I just have to address this one as the same "weakness" applies likewise to Bitcoin and altcoins. It's about the definition of "full-time". I think everyone agrees that having a full-time job doesn't mean that you are actually working on something full-time. Also, it doesn't matter if you are full-time into something or not, it's all about the quality of your work -- and, for Monero, the quality is pretty high, if not the highest among all altcoins!

EDIT1: Strengths... well, the status "hero-member" doesn't mean a thing (look at dga's tag).

EDIT2: In my personal opinion, your list is way too simplistic. If you like to make a proper report on the state of Monero, you need to invest more than 40-50 hours, and you must include a (technical) comparison to its competitors -- BTC, BBR, etc. Good first try though.

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November 28, 2014, 03:45:27 PM
Last edit: November 28, 2014, 04:09:15 PM by jehst
 #17445

I've spent probably 40+ hours obsessively reading hundreds of pages regarding XMR here on bitcointalk.org in addition to every thread on reddit, every thread on monero.cc forum, the CryptoNote white paper, nearly all of fluffypony, Risto Pietila, and others' posts. I've compiled and ran Monero. I am not an XMR or cryptocurrency expert, but my conclusions about XMR are as follows:

Strengths:

...

Weaknesses:

- No one involved is working on XMR full-time. (All devs are working part-time as they cannot make a living purely off XMR.) Essentially, XMR is a multi-million dollar project with no one working full-time. At least one dev is working on a coin other than XMR at the same time.
...

I will correct and update this list as necessary. Thank you for reading.

I just have to address this one as the same "weakness" applies likewise to Bitcoin and altcoins. It's about the definition of "full-time". I think everyone agrees that having a full-time job doesn't mean that you are actually working on something full-time. Also, it doesn't matter if you are full-time into something or not, it's all about the quality of your work -- and, for Monero, the quality is pretty high, if not the highest among altcoins!


I was under the impression that several bitcoin core devs are developing full-time and drawing a salary on which they can live. Several altcoin developers raise money through IPOs and pre-mines, such as Ethereum's 25,000+ BTC "IPO," which allows them to work on their platform full-time.

EDIT: Hero member is a proxy for the the bitcoin "Old Guard." Some combination of experienced, moneyed, and technical individuals such as gmaxwell. I'm not talking about trolls.

EDIT2: There is a large body of work detailing the technical differences between BBR, BTC, and XMR (e.g. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=797738.0 a thread comparing BBR and XMR). I don't wish to clutter my list with such minutiae.

Year 2021
Bitcoin Supply: ~90% mined
Supply Inflation: <1.8%
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November 28, 2014, 04:00:24 PM
 #17446

I've spent probably 40+ hours obsessively reading hundreds of pages regarding XMR here on bitcointalk.org in addition to every thread on reddit, every thread on monero.cc forum, the CryptoNote white paper, nearly all of fluffypony, Risto Pietila, and others' posts. I've compiled and ran Monero. I am not an XMR or cryptocurrency expert, but my conclusions about XMR are as follows:

Strengths:

...

Weaknesses:

- No one involved is working on XMR full-time. (All devs are working part-time as they cannot make a living purely off XMR.) Essentially, XMR is a multi-million dollar project with no one working full-time. At least one dev is working on a coin other than XMR at the same time.
...

I will correct and update this list as necessary. Thank you for reading.

I just have to address this one as the same "weakness" applies likewise to Bitcoin and altcoins. It's about the definition of "full-time". I think everyone agrees that having a full-time job doesn't mean that you are actually working on something full-time. Also, it doesn't matter if you are full-time into something or not, it's all about the quality of your work -- and, for Monero, the quality is pretty high, if not the highest among altcoins!


I was under the impression that several bitcoin core devs are developing full-time and drawing a salary on which they can live. Several altcoin developers raise money through IPOs and pre-mines, such as Ethereum's 25,000+ BTC "IPO," which allows them to work on their platform full-time.

EDIT: Hero member is a proxy for the the bitcoin "Old Guard." Some combination of experienced, moneyed, and technical individuals such as gmaxwell. I'm not talking about trolls.

To my knowledge, Bitcoin has attrackted a number of investors that pay the bills for several people involved in developing Bitcoin. I guess this point is about politics: Commercial vs. non-commercial software developers and their goals and missions... not sure a paid dev is always a good sign.
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November 28, 2014, 04:39:02 PM
 #17447

It's certainly not a detailed technical differentiation, but here is a gif I just finished for sylviaplathlikestobake's art contest that compares btc, drk, and xmr: http://i.imgur.com/evtcybH.gif

Here is the link to the art contest, which is practically over at now (I'm a bit of a procrastinator plus I've been busy): https://forum.monero.cc/16/art/81/25-xmr-prize-for-the-best-monero-art-meme

Please let me know if you think there are any factual errors in the gif.


Well made gif! Protip though, you should upload to gyfcat in future, they optimise it as a .webm animation so it's much smoother and smaller (2mb vs 7mb). Not sure how easy it is to embed though.

https://gfycat.com/DelayedShabbyHoneybadger
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November 28, 2014, 04:51:03 PM
 #17448

It's certainly not a detailed technical differentiation, but here is a gif I just finished for sylviaplathlikestobake's art contest that compares btc, drk, and xmr: http://i.imgur.com/evtcybH.gif

Here is the link to the art contest, which is practically over at now (I'm a bit of a procrastinator plus I've been busy): https://forum.monero.cc/16/art/81/25-xmr-prize-for-the-best-monero-art-meme

Please let me know if you think there are any factual errors in the gif.


Well made gif! Protip though, you should upload to gyfcat in future, they optimise it as a .webm animation so it's much smoother and smaller (2mb vs 7mb). Not sure how easy it is to embed though.

https://gfycat.com/DelayedShabbyHoneybadger

Thanks for the tip. I'm gonna make a few changes in the next week or so, and next time I'll use the gyfcat Smiley
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November 28, 2014, 06:01:28 PM
 #17449

I've spent probably 40+ hours obsessively reading hundreds of pages regarding XMR here on [Suspicious link removed] forum, the CryptoNote white paper, nearly all of fluffypony, Risto Pietila, and others' posts. I've compiled and ran Monero. I am not an XMR or cryptocurrency expert, but my conclusions about XMR are as follows:

Strengths:

- Fair distribution. XMR's emission schedule and lack of pre-mine/instamine means that newcomers do not need to worry about buying into a coin where early adopters are solely interested in pumping and dumping, leaving the newcomers as bagholders. Someone acquiring XMR today and in the near future will get them at a cost within the same order of magnitude as early adopters.
- XMR, due to its fair distribution and good liquidity, is a strong candidate to occupy the #1 or #2 position in the privacy niche of the cryptocurrency market.
- XMR, due to its completely new codebase, different hashing algorithm, and good liquidity  is also a strong candidate to occupy the #1 or #2 position in what I call the "catastrophic hedge niche" of the crypto currency market. (If you would like to read more about my thoughts on XMR as a hedge, you can ready my post here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=624223.msg9679903#msg9679903 )
- A small proportion of funds in XMR will occupy these two important niches at once (neither of which can be adequately addressed by bitcoin). If we assume that these two niches together should account for 5% of the total cryptocurrency market cap, XMR seems to be an incredible expected value (EV) play at this level (1.5 mBTC:1 XMR)
- XMR devs, due to their small stakes in the coin and honest behavior thus far do not seem to be interested in pumping and dumping XMR. They are genuinely interested in the technology.
- XMR has drawn positive attention from many respected members of the bitcoin community, including Gregory Maxwell and many hero members.
- XMR has at least one (and probably several) wealthy backers, such as Mr. Pietila who will support the coin over the long haul.

Weaknesses:
Most of these are soft factors. Please do not take offense to any of this. I am not attacking anyone's lifestyle choices or means. These are simply the facts that I've gathered.

- No one involved is working on XMR full-time. (All devs are working part-time as they cannot make a living purely off XMR.) Essentially, XMR is a multi-million dollar project with no one working full-time. At least one dev is working on a coin other than XMR at the same time.
- Due to XMR's fair distribution (which is a major strength), the devs do not own a significant amount of XMR (perhaps fewer than 50,000 XMR collectively) which means that they are inadequately funded. Even if a significant increase in value occurs and they earn 10x their investment, they will still lack the means to work on XMR full-time.
- XMR seems to be funded by mainly one person, Risto Pietila, who spends the plurality of his waking hours developing the game Crypto Kingdom. Though Crypto Kingdom uses XMR to buy in-game currency, Crypto Kingdom lacks the mass appeal for it to ever be a driving force for XMR adoption.
- Devs were not part of the original CrypoNote team and are admittedly not as familiar with the codebase as the devs of other CryptoNote coins. They therefore experience challenges improving the codebase and making it maintainable.
- Blockchain Bloat. XMR's Ring-signatures are data intensive, and the XMR blockchain will be somewhere between 5-10 times the size of bitcoin's for an equivalent number of transactions. I don't consider this to be a significant weakness. Monero's blockchain will likely be much smaller than bitcoin's anyway.

I will correct and update this list as necessary. Thank you for reading.

This is a nice summary, that could form the basis of a sorely needed FAQ.  I am similarly confused about crypto kingdom.

For weaknesses/areas needing work, important aspects seem from my limited perspective:
- potential threat of sidechain implementation of ring-sigs, or future 2.0 solutions to anonymous transactions not using traditional crypto.  The valuation of traditional crypto within mature 2.0 platforms is unclear.
- appears to be relatively few supporters/discussion associated with online privacy/darknet etc, where Monero should be vocal.
- while some support and awareness from respected crypto community members, it still seems not to be considered by them as a mainstream challenger.
- uncertain rate of progress: would be nice to have a roadmap to multi-sig (unless I've missed one).


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November 28, 2014, 06:17:11 PM
 #17450


This is a nice summary, that could form the basis of a sorely needed FAQ.

Is this what you are looking for?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=721045.0

If you don't know where you're going any road will get you there
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November 28, 2014, 06:24:08 PM
 #17451


This is a nice summary, that could form the basis of a sorely needed FAQ.

Is this what you are looking for?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=721045.0

Awesome, I'd managed to miss the updated original post of that thread
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November 28, 2014, 06:35:06 PM
 #17452

I would personally love a (temptative) development road map. Doesn't need to be very precise, but I am sure the devs have some rough goals in terms of timing, and it would be very positive to know them.

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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November 28, 2014, 06:41:33 PM
 #17453

Quote
No one involved is working on XMR full-time. (All devs are working part-time as they cannot make a living purely off XMR.) Essentially, XMR is a multi-million dollar project with no one working full-time. At least one dev is working on a coin other than XMR at the same time.

No. Thats wrong; While the core team doesn't work "full time" (however i would argue about that, as some certainly spend more time on xmr as on their dayjobs) there are contributors who do.


Quote
Due to XMR's fair distribution (which is a major strength), the devs do not own a significant amount of XMR (perhaps fewer than 50,000 XMR collectively) which means that they are inadequately funded. Even if a significant increase in value occurs and they earn 10x their investment, they will still lack the means to work on XMR full-time.

Sure, but that also means we could buy coins monthly like all normal persons too for a fair price and if Monero gets successful you can always earn money with the ecosystem around it, like most Bitcoin devs also have day jobs that involve Bitcoin companies.

Quote
- XMR seems to be funded by mainly one person, Risto Pietila, who spends the plurality of his waking hours developing the game Crypto Kingdom. Though Crypto Kingdom uses XMR to buy in-game currency, Crypto Kingdom lacks the mass appeal for it to ever be a driving force for XMR adoption.

No. Most funding is directly from the Monero core team.

Quote
- Devs were not part of the original CrypoNote team and are admittedly not as familiar with the codebase as the devs of other CryptoNote coins. They therefore experience challenges improving the codebase and making it maintainable.

I don't think that this is still the case. Of course it takes a great amount of time to make the codebase better but thats not really the lack of understanding it anymore, it's just because its a lot of work.

Quote
- Blockchain Bloat. XMR's Ring-signatures are data intensive, and the XMR blockchain will be somewhere between 5-10 times the size of bitcoin's for an equivalent number of transactions. I don't consider this to be a significant weakness. Monero's blockchain will likely be much smaller than bitcoin's anyway.

Space is pretty much irrelevant nowadays; We have a Webwallet, Mobile and SPV clients will also follow in the future and lets face it, thats what every normal user will run anyway.

Quote
I would personally love a (temptative) development road map. Doesn't need to be very precise, but I am sure the devs have some rough goals in terms of timing, and it would be very positive to know them.

Most, if not all "Roadmaps" by coins so far have been nothing but promises; we aren't a fan of that.
The missives state what we work on and also what comes next, giving timelines helps no one.

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November 28, 2014, 06:58:20 PM
 #17454

I've spent probably 40+ hours obsessively reading hundreds of pages regarding XMR here on bitcointalk.org in addition to every thread on reddit, every thread on monero.cc forum, the CryptoNote white paper, nearly all of fluffypony, Risto Pietila, and others' posts. I've compiled and ran Monero. I am not an XMR or cryptocurrency expert, but my conclusions about XMR are as follows:
I will correct and update this list as necessary. Thank you for reading.

A couple of corrections, if you will. Firstly, Risto has definitely invested a lot of time, money, and energy in Monero and related services. However, at this stage the funding is heavily skewed. At this stage our donations (including those from Risto) cover about 18% of our costs, the remaining 82% are covered by the core team. So I'd say that Monero is "mainly funded" (to the tune of 80+%) by the Monero Core Team.

I agree with most of your points, except that I do think that we're at a stage where we understand the code significantly more than before. When we took over the codebase there were 68 518 lines of code. We've since added 63 790 lines, so I think it's safe to say that we've done a significant level of work and acquired a deep understanding of the code.

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November 28, 2014, 07:14:39 PM
 #17455

A couple of corrections, if you will. Firstly, Risto has definitely invested a lot of time, money, and energy in Monero and related services.

For Monero to have a chance of real success (which I don't see that other altcoins have), it must also beat them (and hopefully Bitcoin) in the functionality of distribution.

There has been many opportunities to acquire an inordinate stake in Monero in the last 2 months. Some people would have liked me to do it, others have sold because of fear of that happening.

But Monero is a true community coin, which means that there is a large group of large and midsize owners, and (to my knowledge) no extra-large ones. My position is <5% of coins and it is financially not a significant part of my assets. This is the case with the other large owners also that I know.

I have moved from speculation to building the economy around Monero, and mymonero and CryptoKingdom are examples of it. The MEW will have other initiatives also.
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November 28, 2014, 07:17:08 PM
 #17456

However, at this stage the funding is heavily skewed. At this stage our donations (including those from Risto) cover about 18% of our costs, the remaining 82% are covered by the core team. So I'd say that Monero is "mainly funded" (to the tune of 80+%) by the Monero Core Team.

This doesn't even include the time that core team members have devoted to the project entirely on an unpaid basis, so in that sense you can say the actual number is much higher than 80%.

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November 28, 2014, 07:31:09 PM
 #17457

Several corrections have been made. Thank you. I am, by the way, a holder and supporter of XMR. This is just some information I am gathering.

Year 2021
Bitcoin Supply: ~90% mined
Supply Inflation: <1.8%
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November 28, 2014, 09:38:17 PM
 #17458

Several corrections have been made. Thank you. I am, by the way, a holder and supporter of XMR. This is just some information I am gathering.

Yes, I also did not buy before researching it thoroughly. And it's the only altcoin I have (ever had).
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November 29, 2014, 04:18:36 AM
 #17459

Hi Guys! So I have setup my Monero Pool. I'm the only one mining it with around 4KH/s right now. Everything seems to working fine except for the automatic payout. Anyone know what values I need to put in the config file to make it payout at .50 Monero's ? I've tried different option but it's not working out.
Can anyone help?

Bitcoin: 1FzZehkiwfeeUmfmBrym8VvXX7gUj3miHe
XMR: 4AqrzGPfEKeZrVXyPDNXUrNeKZZGNYiXMDoY49PvdffKNTRg6xp2Qz74SZ72gT5F9HH8Vaic99ndRg6 UBGcVijaNStQjwwf
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November 29, 2014, 09:12:03 AM
 #17460

Hi Guys! So I have setup my Monero Pool. I'm the only one mining it with around 4KH/s right now. Everything seems to working fine except for the automatic payout. Anyone know what values I need to put in the config file to make it payout at .50 Monero's ? I've tried different option but it's not working out.
Can anyone help?


Have you tried asking on irc? #monero-pools on freenode. The guys are really helpful.

|| Monero Blocks - The Monero Block Explorerdonate.moneroblocks.info ||
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