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Author Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"  (Read 1150795 times)
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P-Funk
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December 01, 2015, 07:10:30 AM
 #5801

@P-Funk: which stakeholders are the network? Because this set potentially changes every time there is a transaction. Polls and voting can only measure stakeholders at an instant-in-time, but both network stability and confidence in the economic value require a greater degree of stability and consensus over acceptable rules and rule changes. That is why, for example, soft forks typically require a large supermajority. There is no technical difference between a soft fork supported by 51% of the network and a 51% attack; the only difference is that an acceptable soft fork is widely supported by the larger community and a 51% attack is not. But technically, and in terms of on-chain voting, the two are identical.

It doesn't sound like xploited, creativecuriosity aka SuperClam, or dooglus will be making any changes based on a 51% simple majority of CLAMour proposal votes though.
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December 01, 2015, 07:16:29 AM
 #5802

@P-Funk: which stakeholders are the network? Because this set potentially changes every time there is a transaction. Polls and voting can only measure stakeholders at an instant-in-time, but both network stability and confidence in the economic value require a greater degree of stability and consensus over acceptable rules and rule changes. That is why, for example, soft forks typically require a large supermajority. There is no technical difference between a soft fork supported by 51% of the network and a 51% attack; the only difference is that an acceptable soft fork is widely supported by the larger community and a 51% attack is not. But technically, and in terms of on-chain voting, the two are identical.

It doesn't sound like xploited, creativecuriosity aka SuperClam, or dooglus will be making any changes based on a 51% simple majority of CLAMour proposal votes though.

The specific number is somewhat arbitrary. 51%, 52%, 60%, 75%? Is there really a number that makes a majority of stakeholders-at-one-time the "correct" behavior of the network as opposed to an "attack"? If there is such a number, who gets to decide what it is? I don't think it is possible to identify one without considering the wider community and longer term considerations, things which can't be measured by voting.
SuperClam (OP)
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December 01, 2015, 11:32:34 AM
 #5803

Deleted a 'Hippie Tech' post.
His consistent 'trolling' is not helpful or logical.

Try to be productive, please.

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djhomeschool
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December 01, 2015, 12:07:33 PM
 #5804

Deleted a 'Hippie Tech' post.
His consistent 'trolling' is not helpful or logical.

Try to be productive, please.

*thumbs up, way up*
clf99
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December 01, 2015, 01:32:28 PM
 #5805

is it possible to tell how many clam clients are out there supporting the network?

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TRilon
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December 01, 2015, 01:52:04 PM
 #5806

It's hard to understand what you're asking. I don't know of any web wallets for CLAM (unless you count JD, bitdice, etc.). The CLAM client won't listen for RPC commands on external interfaces by default - it only listens on localhost. Comodo seems to be a company that issues SSL certificates.
Thank you. I had to again seek the assistance of a professional, and he added the purse to the white list, everything works. Just firewall was configured to aggressive mode
hetecon
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December 01, 2015, 04:31:32 PM
 #5807

Forking to 2 coins does not make sense.

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December 01, 2015, 04:52:05 PM
 #5808

Deleted a 'Hippie Tech' post...
By the way. How flood or spam CLAMspeach messages will be prevented?
"Only CLAMspeech messages associated with staked blocks ('coinstake') will be counted"
Am I understand right - a price of solostaking now is not very high?
AgentofCoin
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December 01, 2015, 07:26:15 PM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 07:54:17 PM by AgentofCoin
 #5809

...
Worrying about what oblivious clam owners (mostly owners of undug clams) will think about changing something about Clams, if that even happens, is a strange anxiety and not productive. Stakers are the network, and the network is the cryptocurrency.

My concern is not about future whale diggers, my concern is:
"Why would future users of Clam, buy Clams, knowing that the protocol can change
if majority holders don't like something about the protocol, at that time?"
My concern is future users/investors.

For example with bitcoin, what if in the future, the 21 million cap is raised to 42 million?
The BTC price would not only tank due to future increase in potential supply,
but also the fact that the rules were changed, and that means there is no fundamental truth to the coin.
Nothing is "written in stone" with the coin. The risk of future loss is greater now, than if the protocol never changed, IMO.


Forking to 2 coins does not make sense.

I wouldn't consider "Cooked Clams" a fork.
I think it would be like a layer on top of the Clam network.

DogeParty is considered a layer to the Doge network.
(http://www.dogeparty.io/)
(https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/dogecoin-community-burning-currency-dogeparty/)

But I'm not a coder, so I don't know if a layer to Clam is still actually a fork of Clam.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
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December 01, 2015, 09:13:23 PM
 #5810

My view has changed a lot since I initially proposed an idea to half the dig rewards as time went on. My major worry was that another digger would show up x months or x years from now and cause a disruption, and i was (admittedly excessively) vocal about it. What i was missing was that because of the stake rewards, the more time passes, the lesser the impact a digger would have.

CLAMS has now proven itself resilient in the face of a massive whale dig, but more importantly, it withstood the most dangerous attack of all.. an attack from within. Kudos to the devs for not over-reacting and changing things which in hindsight would have been a huge mistake.

At this point, I really hope we'll stop considering changes to CLAM digs, stakes or any other fundamental properties of the coin.

LLTGC  
Same feelings. But perhaps I'll put a vote for some changes that could make massive speed digging or spending huge bulk of just dug coins with a function of time. In other words - something like this: digging and spending clams from 1-10 key pairs should be easy. Digging 10-100 key pairs also possible but will took more time (day?). 1000-10000 - will took a year.
Maybe "idea to require 'dig' outputs to be staked to be claimed" is the way in that direction.   
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December 01, 2015, 09:59:42 PM
 #5811

My concern is not about future whale diggers, my concern is:
"Why would future users of Clam, buy Clams, knowing that the protocol can change
if majority holders don't like something about the protocol, at that time?"
My concern is future users/investors.

Exactly that is what i thought too. Though i think that danger is now avoided isn't it? Price stabilizes and the fork is dead or am i missing something?

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
smooth
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December 01, 2015, 10:51:17 PM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 11:01:54 PM by smooth
 #5812

Same feelings. But perhaps I'll put a vote for some changes that could make massive speed digging or spending huge bulk of just dug coins with a function of time. In other words - something like this: digging and spending clams from 1-10 key pairs should be easy. Digging 10-100 key pairs also possible but will took more time (day?). 1000-10000 - will took a year.

On the surface I don't think there is anything to bad about a speed limit on digging (within reason, such if people do want to claim their CLAMs, they aren't forced to wait years and and probably lose interest but certainly lose out on years of staking), but I can't see a practical way to do it. There is no way to tell whether 1000 digs are one person or 1000 different people.

Quote
Maybe "idea to require 'dig' outputs to be staked to be claimed" is the way in that direction.

I don't know maybe. It seems someone with a lot of CLAMs to dig has a big advantage, and small diggers might be discouraged from even bothering.

smooth
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December 01, 2015, 10:55:09 PM
 #5813

My concern is not about future whale diggers, my concern is:
"Why would future users of Clam, buy Clams, knowing that the protocol can change
if majority holders don't like something about the protocol, at that time?"
My concern is future users/investors.

Exactly that is what i thought too. Though i think that danger is now avoided isn't it? Price stabilizes and the fork is dead or am i missing something?

You're missing that this CLAMour "vote on changes" concept was pushed at the very same time as all the talk about changing the rules to cut digging, by some of the same people who: 1. Were also talking about cutting digging, and 2. Very likely hold a large number of CLAMs giving them a large influence over the vote. So if you think the danger of undermining long term stability and trust with rule changes made for short term economic reasons is entirely avoided, I can't entirely share your optimism. But I hope you are right, and you may be right.

I do agree with the sentiment that some have expressed that We Survived the Great Digging Panic of 2015 and with the right response that can make the coin stronger and more resilient. But then you still have some people approaching it more from a FUD perspective ("Okay, but what about the next whale digger?! zOMG!!"), sadly.
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December 02, 2015, 12:10:19 AM
 #5814

My concern is not about future whale diggers, my concern is:
"Why would future users of Clam, buy Clams, knowing that the protocol can change
if majority holders don't like something about the protocol, at that time?"
My concern is future users/investors.

Exactly that is what i thought too. Though i think that danger is now avoided isn't it? Price stabilizes and the fork is dead or am i missing something?

You're missing that this CLAMour "vote on changes" concept was pushed at the very same time as all the talk about changing the rules to cut digging, by some of the same people who: 1. Were also talking about cutting digging, and 2. Very likely hold a large number of CLAMs giving them a large influence over the vote. So if you think the danger of undermining long term stability and trust with rule changes made for short term economic reasons is entirely avoided, I can't entirely share your optimism. But I hope you are right, and you may be right.

I do agree with the sentiment that some have expressed that We Survived the Great Digging Panic of 2015 and with the right response that can make the coin stronger and more resilient. But then you still have some people approaching it more from a FUD perspective ("Okay, but what about the next whale digger?! zOMG!!"), sadly.

In any case, if you can't trust on the fundamental rules of a cryptocurrency then confidence in that altcoin is lost quite quickly since you are at mercy of the whales of that altcoin. If whales think that is a good idea then i think it might be a bad awakening for them.

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
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December 02, 2015, 12:41:03 AM
 #5815

My concern is not about future whale diggers, my concern is:
"Why would future users of Clam, buy Clams, knowing that the protocol can change
if majority holders don't like something about the protocol, at that time?"
My concern is future users/investors.

Exactly that is what i thought too. Though i think that danger is now avoided isn't it? Price stabilizes and the fork is dead or am i missing something?

Not exactly, all the hoopla surrounding the digger (aka "curious") is over, since we bought him out. So that's over, and almost 300K clams have been introduced in the wild.

However, we are still going to vote through staking, to see just what the majority wants, in case of future diggers appearing (the likelihood of which is not insignificant). We need to figure this out before the next one shows up and throws the community into a nosedive again.
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December 02, 2015, 12:57:28 AM
 #5816

Reducing the entire problem to "(current) block-creators decide everything" is oversimplifying to a dangerous degree.

OK, so who should "decide everything", if not the coin's stakeholders?

Exactly that is what i thought too. Though i think that danger is now avoided isn't it? Price stabilizes and the fork is dead or am i missing something?

I think this is what you are missing:

Before this whale digger appeared, around 72k old addresses had been dug up. That's 2.2% of the initial distribution.

Now that the whale digger has apparently finished, around 178k old addresses have been dug up. That's 5.5% of the initial distribution.

There's 94.5% of the initial distribution still undug.

People seem to be thinking that the whale digger's 3.3% is somehow significant, rather than being only 1/30th of the initial distribution.

This is a single guy who probably abused a bunch of faucets. Think about what happens if the Silk Road wallet ever gets dug up. Or the MtGox wallet. BTC-e. SatoshiDice. MyBitcoin. Pirate's Ponzi wallet. The various big mining pools. And so on. There are many more potential whale diggers out there.

BAC was actively petitioning the government to release the confiscated Silk Road private keys so he could dig the associated CLAMs.

tl;dr: one guy digging 3.3% of the initial distribution != "danger is now avoided". His actions are tiny in the scale of things.

Edit: some people find a graphical representation easier to understand. Everyone was freaking about about the impact of the orange area, but we're supposed to somehow not worry about the yellow area?



I do agree with the sentiment that some have expressed that We Survived the Great Digging Panic of 2015 and with the right response that can make the coin stronger and more resilient. But then you still have some people approaching it more from a FUD perspective ("Okay, but what about the next whale digger?! zOMG!!"), sadly.

Why do you call that "FUD"? 94.5% of the initial distribution is still unclaimed. Are you arguing with that number, or you think it doesn't matter that this massive inflation we've just seen could happen again repeatedly in the future?

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December 02, 2015, 01:08:54 AM
 #5817

Maybe "idea to require 'dig' outputs to be staked to be claimed" is the way in that direction.
I don't know maybe. It seems someone with a lot of CLAMs to dig has a big advantage, and small diggers might be discouraged from even bothering.
Of Course. With word "maybe" I mean not this way exactly but in this area even if in opposite direction. Decision could be found with changing of a required conditions of first moving (claiming) dug coins. Is staker who got this first claiming transaction are able to verify belonging of destination address to an active node?
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December 02, 2015, 01:32:02 AM
 #5818

left out of your pie chart is staked clams that are in the pool but not dug and that number is big

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December 02, 2015, 01:37:17 AM
 #5819

I do agree with the sentiment that some have expressed that We Survived the Great Digging Panic of 2015 and with the right response that can make the coin stronger and more resilient. But then you still have some people approaching it more from a FUD perspective ("Okay, but what about the next whale digger?! zOMG!!"), sadly.

Why do you call that "FUD"? 94.5% of the initial distribution is still unclaimed. Are you arguing with that number, or you think it doesn't matter that this massive inflation we've just seen could happen again repeatedly in the future?

Of course I'm not arguing with the number, it is clearly correct. I'm suggesting that the context is very colored by not only the recent dig (which wasn't really out of line with previous "big digs") but by the panic it created.

There was no new information to come out of this latest experience, except the reaction of the community to it. Has the total supply changed? Did anyone doubt there were people out there with many addresses? Has the fundamental truth that the more coins are dug the fewer there are left to dig changed in any way? (BTW, the same can be said about "big digs" -- the more happen, the fewer can ever happen in the future.)

Quote
Before this whale digger appeared, around 72k old addresses had been dug up. That's 2.2% of the initial distribution.

Now that the whale digger has apparently finished, around 178k old addresses have been dug up. That's 5.5% of the initial distribution.

These numbers are misleading because of staking. The latest dig was only 60% of the active supply, not 150% of it. Future digs will be even smaller relative to active supply, both because more digging has already occurred but because staking will continue to dilute undug coins.
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December 02, 2015, 01:53:18 AM
 #5820

Are you arguing with that number, or you think it doesn't matter that this massive inflation we've just seen could happen again repeatedly in the future?

I personally agree with most of what you've said; but I think you are over-estimating a bit.

I think it is likely that there are large diggers in the future, possibly even this large or larger.
I believe most services, properly designed, will have swept their wallets and not have such a large amount of addresses.
A service small enough that it can afford to not sweep their wallets is likewise less of a threat.

I admittedly base this on unconfirmed data; specifically, reports that Poloniex and certain other services have already claimed (deposit addresses were claimed).
I think these edge cases are larger concern than primary services.
They are also probably less likely to exist.
I would also argue that a large amount of keys are un-claimable.

I think that the impact of these future diggers is likely to be smaller than this digger.
Though, a digger even half this size at the moment would probably still be widely felt in the markets.

smooth is correct in his previous argument:
As the moneysupply increases via staking and other more conventional "digs", the impact of these larger diggers necessarily goes down. 
They are simply a smaller percentage increase in a larger market.

The downside of this argument is that our inflation isn't amazingly high.
It is in fact currently lower than BTC.
Meaning that the process of walking along this path of minting the moneysupply, as it relates to damping down the effects of 'diggers', is a slow walk.

All-in-all, this whole situation is muddled mess.
I believe that the 'digging' feature of CLAM is an essential part of what makes CLAM... well, CLAM.

I think this is a situation where intent matters.
I would likely not support a proposal that changed 'digs' simply for the sake of doing so.
That said, if a strong majority supported a change, and I verified Poloniex/Cryptsy and other services with interests in CLAM did as well....
If I had good evidence that a super-super-majority of the network wanted the change, and thus a soft-fork would be easily successful, there would come a point where we simply must accept the fact that the vast majority of those who support the network want the change.
The network IS, after all, it's users.

I would much prefer a change that made sense on it's face, without consideration of digs.
A change that would make sense to implement, improving network conditions, even if this 'digger' had never shown up.

In this vein-of-reasoning, and with the assumption that this is only my personal opinion, assuming anything at all ends up happening to 'fix' the dig situation:

Fees:
The network needs either a larger static fee, a dynamic fee system, or a time-based fee system.
This isn't optional - as our current fee system is inadequate to serve it's primary purpose: DDoS and Bloat protection.

Subsidy:
The argument that future large diggers pose an existential 51% risk is unlikely, but shouldn't be ignored.
I wouldn't be against an increase to the subsidy IF that increase was EQUALLY offset by an increase in the fee-system.


Combining those two elements, we have a fee system that charges a per-byte-per-block fee which is attributed to stakers.

We end up with a fee-system that reflects time, and more effectively prevents DDoS and Bloat.
We incentivize the staking of larger outputs, additionally improving txout bloat.
We have a situation where, in the future, pruning will be more effective due to the fact that unstaked outputs "expire" from fee over a long period of time.
We have a fee-system that is also robust enough to support the implementation of CLAMspeech as a decentralized, distributed database.
We more quickly 'mint' our moneysupply, without increasing it, and thus reduce the risk of 51% and the impact of large diggers.
We increase the incentive to stake, and thus secure the network.

There are likely additional benefits of fixing the incentive structure that aren't even listed.


I think smooth is correct in his concern that fundamental changes are made in a reactionary fashion to this recent digger.
Again, I would much prefer a change that made sense on it's face, without consideration of digs.



In the end, if changes are to be made, the users and stakeholders of CLAM will need to make their personal opinions known via CLAMour.

Poorly laid plans that gain traction via CLAMour will hopefully gain attention; and thus criticism.
I expect this to be a process that occurs over time, informed by CLAMour.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
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Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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