[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[Jbanna]

clam was fun but with all those private adresses out there ahaving had btc, that is way too many CLAMs influx on the market if, ever, it happens that the coins gets some notoriety.
Not sustainable if broader audience gets into it.

This is precisely why there is a petition to end digging. It was a beautiful addition to a unique coin that initially allowed for a large user base and community. Now, however, with stable innovative development and services, there is simply no need for it.

Furthermore, allowing digging is a huge security issue.
Imagine someone like Ross Ulbricht took their private key stash and redeemed their clams? Well that could very well be 400,000 priv keys... and this would be over 1.8 million clams. That right there is the possibility for a 51%+ attack.

Digging needs to end for the security of clams and for the sake of everyone's investment. http://txti.es/5afa074c.

Clam could very well climb to the levels we saw previously in August (over 0.01/BTC). With the decreased supply influx in the market this reality becomes more probable.

[clf99]

i think the staking washes out most of the risk you're all concerned about

[SebastianJu]

Reducing the entire problem to "(current) block-creators decide everything" is oversimplifying to a dangerous degree.

OK, so who should "decide everything", if not the coin's stakeholders?

Exactly that is what i thought too. Though i think that danger is now avoided isn't it? Price stabilizes and the fork is dead or am i missing something?

I think this is what you are missing:

Before this whale digger appeared, around 72k old addresses had been dug up. That's 2.2% of the initial distribution.

Now that the whale digger has apparently finished, around 178k old addresses have been dug up. That's 5.5% of the initial distribution.

There's 94.5% of the initial distribution still undug.

People seem to be thinking that the whale digger's 3.3% is somehow significant, rather than being only 1/30th of the initial distribution.

This is a single guy who probably abused a bunch of faucets. Think about what happens if the Silk Road wallet ever gets dug up. Or the MtGox wallet. BTC-e. SatoshiDice. MyBitcoin. Pirate's Ponzi wallet. The various big mining pools. And so on. There are many more potential whale diggers out there.

BAC was actively petitioning the government to release the confiscated Silk Road private keys so he could dig the associated CLAMs.

tl;dr: one guy digging 3.3% of the initial distribution != "danger is now avoided". His actions are tiny in the scale of things.

Edit: some people find a graphical representation easier to understand. Everyone was freaking about about the impact of the orange area, but we're supposed to somehow not worry about the yellow area?

I do agree with the sentiment that some have expressed that We Survived the Great Digging Panic of 2015 and with the right response that can make the coin stronger and more resilient. But then you still have some people approaching it more from a FUD perspective ("Okay, but what about the next whale digger?! zOMG!!"), sadly.

Why do you call that "FUD"? 94.5% of the initial distribution is still unclaimed. Are you arguing with that number, or you think it doesn't matter that this massive inflation we've just seen could happen again repeatedly in the future?

Though i think that is the rule everyone agreed on when going into clams. It was nice claiming clams when it was usefull for oneself but now it's not not convenient anymore because clammers fear diluting of their wealth.

Of course, the one with the power can decide but if the fork becomes reality it would look like clams and their community would be corrupted. Sure, i can speak easy about it when i don't hold clams at the moment but it sounds like misuse of position. Taking an advantage but negating the same right to others after that, locking profits for oneself while others are blocked from their clams. If i would own a good wallet and would find out that it is worthless now then i would be pretty angry about such selfishness of a community.

Guess the decision might be already made then. Only a couple of the biggest clammers will decide what will happen i guess.

[SebastianJu]

Before this whale digger appeared, around 72k old addresses had been dug up. That's 2.2% of the initial distribution.

Now that the whale digger has apparently finished, around 178k old addresses have been dug up. That's 5.5% of the initial distribution.

These numbers are misleading because of staking. The latest dig was only 60% of the active supply, not 150% of it. Future digs will be even smaller relative to active supply, both because more digging has already occurred but because staking will continue to dilute undug coins.

You mention a good point. Digging is not the only way to raise the total amount of clams in use. But i guess the fear factor is the most important role in this game now. And fear is a hard thing to deal with.

[SebastianJu]

I believe most services, properly designed, will have swept their wallets and not have such a large amount of addresses.
A service small enough that it can afford to not sweep their wallets is likewise less of a threat.

I think a service that sweeps out addresses and does NOT backup the private keys and/or let these addresses stay in a different wallet, would not be trusted by me. It always can happen that users use very old deposit addresses. I would hate to tell them that we deleted the privkey and so the coins vanished into nirvana.

A backup of the private keys should be the minimum.

In fact i think it would be not a bad idea when mtgox would claim his clams if possible. A lot of people wait for compensation, around 20 to 25% were in the conversation mentioned some months ago. With digged clams, handled correctly in order to not crash the market, would likely be able to raise that percent.

[SuperClam]

I believe most services, properly designed, will have swept their wallets and not have such a large amount of addresses.
A service small enough that it can afford to not sweep their wallets is likewise less of a threat.

I think a service that sweeps out addresses and does NOT backup the private keys and/or let these addresses stay in a different wallet, would not be trusted by me. It always can happen that users use very old deposit addresses. I would hate to tell them that we deleted the privkey and so the coins vanished into nirvana.
A backup of the private keys should be the minimum.
In fact i think it would be not a bad idea when mtgox would claim his clams if possible. A lot of people wait for compensation, around 20 to 25% were in the conversation mentioned some months ago. With digged clams, handled correctly in order to not crash the market, would likely be able to raise that percent.

I think you mis-understand.

It doesn't matter if they keep a "backup".

Those backed up addresses didn't have a balance, and thus didn't get CLAM.

[uvwvj]

Changing the rules is bullshit - clam scammers unite and buy bitcoins now before its completely ruined

[SuperClam]

Changing the rules is bullshit - clam scammers unite and buy bitcoins now before its completely ruined

Be productive; or go somewhere else.

[uvwvj]

Changing the rules is bullshit - clam scammers unite and buy bitcoins now before its completely ruined

Be productive; or go somewhere else.

I am I have caucius coins and for every 1 I have 4.6 clams and you are treating to take my clams away from me.

It was described as fairest coin out there but looks like a ploy to protect a fews wealth will transferrign it to bitcoins now

[SuperClam]

Changing the rules is bullshit - clam scammers unite and buy bitcoins now before its completely ruined

Be productive; or go somewhere else.

I am I have caucius coins and for every 1 I have 4.6 clams and you are treating to take my clams away from me.
It was described as fairest coin out there but looks like a ploy to protect a fews wealth will transferrign it to bitcoins now

If you don't agree with a specific CLAMour petition, put your CLAM to work staking, don't list it in the stakes as a petition you support, and you will make it less likely to reach consensus.

[webchris]

Changing the rules is bullshit - clam scammers unite and buy bitcoins now before its completely ruined

I hear this argument all the time, and it is the most puzzling thing to me.

Why can't cryptocurrencies change and adapt? Are we saying this amazing technology is limited by the first thought of the first developers? I'm not saying the developers were wrong. I think the distribution of CLAM was probably the most fair way to distribute a cryptocurrency. But I think had they a chance to do it over, I would imagine it would be tweaked to avoid the problems we have today.

I get that it certainly seems unfair that people who own the currency now would change the rules that affect future owners. And I sympathize with that logic, but I think it's flawed. Who are the future owners of CLAM? Are they "buyers" or diggers? When someone heard about clam 6-8 months ago and asked about it, you could tell them they probably already had some! But now with so many people entering crypto (and with so many having left before), what would that look like? If you tell 100 random BTC/doge/LTC owners today about Clam, how many would have undug clams? I would love to know this number. Whatever it is, I bet it has been dropping steadily every day. Basically, the desired effect of distributing clams fairly to people who have other crypto was accomplished, but now is no longer an effective tool. Undug clams are either lost, or they are cached in large collections of addresses controlled by individuals who haven't realized it yet. And once they do, we have more whale diggers with a huge supply and no interest in holding clams.

Having this super massive cloud of clams that could start pouring into the market at any time hurts holders now, and it will continue to weigh on holders and buyers. Acknowledging the distribution "worked" and checking it off as complete (by limiting or ending future digging at some point), you remove all that uncertainty.

[webchris]

Changing the rules is bullshit - clam scammers unite and buy bitcoins now before its completely ruined

Be productive; or go somewhere else.

I am I have caucius coins and for every 1 I have 4.6 clams and you are treating to take my clams away from me.

It was described as fairest coin out there but looks like a ploy to protect a fews wealth will transferrign it to bitcoins now

Not sure if troll or what, but feel free to dig up your coins at any time. No one has changed anything about digging and if you do have undug clams (which I highly doubt) then you should be concerned as the rest of us about the future of this currency and get educated on the issues.

[SuperClam]

Changing the rules is bullshit - clam scammers unite and buy bitcoins now before its completely ruined

I hear this argument all the time, and it is the most puzzling thing to me.
Why can't cryptocurrencies change and adapt? Are we saying this amazing technology is limited by the first thought of the first developers? I'm not saying the developers were wrong. I think the distribution of CLAM was probably the most fair way to distribute a cryptocurrency. But I think had they a chance to do it over, I would imagine it would be tweaked to avoid the problems we have today.
I get that it certainly seems unfair that people who own the currency now would change the rules that affect future owners. And I sympathize with that logic, but I think it's flawed. Who are the future owners of CLAM? Are they "buyers" or diggers? When someone heard about clam 6-8 months ago and asked about it, you could tell them they probably already had some! But now with so many people entering crypto (and with so many having left before), what would that look like? If you tell 100 random BTC/doge/LTC owners today about Clam, how many would have undug clams? I would love to know this number. Whatever it is, I bet it has been dropping steadily every day. Basically, the desired effect of distributing clams fairly to people who have other crypto was accomplished, but now is no longer an effective tool. Undug clams are either lost, or they are cached in large collections of addresses controlled by individuals who haven't realized it yet. And once they do, we have more whale diggers with a huge supply and no interest in holding clams.
Having this super massive cloud of clams that could start pouring into the market at any time hurts holders now, and it will continue to weigh on holders and buyers. Acknowledging the distribution "worked" and checking it off as complete (by limiting or ending future digging at some point), you remove all that uncertainty.

In fairness, you can't make both arguments.

The digs can't, on one hand, be steadily declining and barely anyone has any to claim.
And, on the other hand, be an existential threat or "cloud" hanging over the network.

[webchris]

In fairness, you can't make both arguments.

The digs can't, on one hand, be steadily declining and barely anyone has any to claim.
And, on the other hand, be an existential threat or "cloud" hanging over the network.

The argument I am making is the digger who is an avg BTC/LTC/Doge holder who happens to hear about CLAM for the first time is becoming less and less common. The undug CLAMs are increasingly in large undiscovered or lost caches of keys - controlled by individuals (like people who ran services, casinos, exchanges, bots, etc.). And people don't point out enough (that I've seen anyway) that lost coins sit in this large cloud as well, yet we can never know how many have been lost to the ages. Every time a digger shows up as large as curious (or heaven forbid, larger), we will all pull out these charts showing how huge this undug supply is and remind us of this problem.

I think a lot of people who are thinking about the future diggers like to think of it as a great outreach of CLAM. But I think avg people joining CLAM are not new diggers, but buyers. People who have been evangelized not by the initial distribution, but what the coin and community offer today.

[chilly2k]

In fairness, you can't make both arguments.

The digs can't, on one hand, be steadily declining and barely anyone has any to claim.
And, on the other hand, be an existential threat or "cloud" hanging over the network.

The argument I am making is the digger who is an avg BTC/LTC/Doge holder who happens to hear about CLAM for the first time is becoming less and less common. The undug CLAMs are increasingly in large undiscovered or lost caches of keys - controlled by individuals (like people who ran services, casinos, exchanges, bots, etc.). And people don't point out enough (that I've seen anyway) that lost coins sit in this large cloud as well, yet we can never know how many have been lost to the ages. Every time a digger shows up as large as curious (or heaven forbid, larger), we will all pull out these charts showing how huge this undug supply is and remind us of this problem.

I think a lot of people who are thinking about the future diggers like to think of it as a great outreach of CLAM. But I think avg people joining CLAM are not new diggers, but buyers. People who have been evangelized not by the initial distribution, but what the coin and community offer today.

   Your assuming there are large caches of Keys.  And your assuming the regular users are now non-existent.  Nobody knows, so you could flip your statements around and be just as correct.   

I would agree that more people joining clam are buying and not digging, but I would argue that most clams are being bought by people already in clam and not a whole new group. 

   The initial distribution of clams was to holders of BTC, LTC and Doge.  To stop digging, is about the same as bitcoin saying, we're going to end the block rewards, there are enough bitcoins out there and the miners are just dumping them and lowering the price. 

    And yes I have a nice little cache of clams.       

[SuperClam]

In fairness, you can't make both arguments.
The digs can't, on one hand, be steadily declining and barely anyone has any to claim.
And, on the other hand, be an existential threat or "cloud" hanging over the network.

The argument I am making is the digger who is an avg BTC/LTC/Doge holder who happens to hear about CLAM for the first time is becoming less and less common.

Data?  Source?

The undug CLAMs are increasingly in large undiscovered or lost caches of keys - controlled by individuals (like people who ran services, casinos, exchanges, bots, etc.).

Again, source?

And people don't point out enough (that I've seen anyway) that lost coins sit in this large cloud as well, yet we can never know how many have been lost to the ages.

This is true - it is impossible to know.

Every time a digger shows up as large as curious (or heaven forbid, larger), we will all pull out these charts showing how huge this undug supply is and remind us of this problem.

'Every time' - there has never been a digger as large as 'curious'.

I think a lot of people who are thinking about the future diggers like to think of it as a great outreach of CLAM. But I think avg people joining CLAM are not new diggers, but buyers. People who have been evangelized not by the initial distribution, but what the coin and community offer today.

I think you are correct in stating that the argument of the 'digs' as outreach will lose persuasiveness as time moves forward.
It is very difficult, however, to quantify how many new users are 'diggers' and how many are 'purchasers', or both.

In the past, increases in digging (with the exception of 'curious') have appeared to be beneficial to CLAM, including in the market.

More importantly, I think the argument that ending digs has property/blacklist implications is a more persuasive argument.

In the end, we will have to see if there is a large consensus of support around any change, before that change takes place.

[uvwvj]

Changing the rules is bullshit - clam scammers unite and buy bitcoins now before its completely ruined

Be productive; or go somewhere else.

I am I have caucius coins and for every 1 I have 4.6 clams and you are treating to take my clams away from me.

It was described as fairest coin out there but looks like a ploy to protect a fews wealth will transferrign it to bitcoins now

Not sure if troll or what, but feel free to dig up your coins at any time. No one has changed anything about digging and if you do have undug clams (which I highly doubt) then you should be concerned as the rest of us about the future of this currency and get educated on the issues.

Wanna bet 1 BTC that I dont have undug clams?

 http://casascius.uberbills.com  look at all these undug coins .

I bet if we hit $2000 acoin they will be open and more clams will be dug.

[thefix]

Changing the rules is bullshit - clam scammers unite and buy bitcoins now before its completely ruined

Be productive; or go somewhere else.

I am I have caucius coins and for every 1 I have 4.6 clams and you are treating to take my clams away from me.

It was described as fairest coin out there but looks like a ploy to protect a fews wealth will transferrign it to bitcoins now

Not sure if troll or what, but feel free to dig up your coins at any time. No one has changed anything about digging and if you do have undug clams (which I highly doubt) then you should be concerned as the rest of us about the future of this currency and get educated on the issues.

Wanna bet 1 BTC that I dont have undug clams?

 http://casascius.uberbills.com  look at all these undug coins .

I bet if we hit $2000 acoin they will be open and more clams will be dug.

Dig them up and place your vote!

[djhomeschool]

I have no idea what that website meant, but maybe my brain turned off a few hours ago.

I find it interesting nobody had anything to say to may argument AGAINST ending digging... everybody just waited a couple of pages and then trotted out the specter again and started arguing in favor of ending digging. It is really starting to reek of profiteering. "I got mine!"

[webchris]

   The initial distribution of clams was to holders of BTC, LTC and Doge.  To stop digging, is about the same as bitcoin saying, we're going to end the block rewards, there are enough bitcoins out there and the miners are just dumping them and lowering the price. 

I don't think stopping digging is the same as ending block rewards. First of all, block rewards perform a vital function which keeps Bitcoin and the Blockchain going. The CLAM distribution, initially, and even very recently as SuperClam pointed out, has been an aid to the CLAM market, but has very recently become a negative feature - maybe more similar to the Bitcoin blocksize debate.

I think you are correct in stating that the argument of the 'digs' as outreach will lose persuasiveness as time moves forward.
It is very difficult, however, to quantify how many new users are 'diggers' and how many are 'purchasers', or both.

In the past, increases in digging (with the exception of 'curious') have appeared to be beneficial to CLAM, including in the market.

I agree completely. It is very hard to know. I just think the distribution date (while genius at the time) now looks so arbitrary, and that can be a turnoff to newcomers. I feel like if the distribution was designed today, there would be strong arguments to make it have a limited number of blocks. Perhaps something like the reward for undug CLAM halving every X blocks until phasing out.

Even if we do not stop digging next week, or next month. I would love to see something that puts an end to digging at some point in the future. Even if it were a year from now. That would give plenty of time to get the word out, evangelize, then let CLAM be free of the uncertainty.