[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[smooth]

You say new users so glibly. Which new users exactly? All of the new users in Crypto see clams as an unfair distribution these days. a distribution that only benefits the old timers that have been part of the crypto community.  It seems that Clam digging is a promise to the elite that held crypto at some past point in time.

People who held small to moderate amounts of BTC, LTC and DOGE in 2014 are not really "the elite". That's millions of people including many who became aware of cryptos (esp. DOGE) via mainstream social media. Pre-2013, sure, that's an actual elite. But 2014, no.

[smooth]

If you had undug addresses you wouldn't be suggesting we postpone or cancel digging, don't screw over other people just because you got yours.

I don't think that's fair. Leaving the distribution out there forever screws all current and future owners of CLAM, not to mention potential buyers/adopters who were not part of the distro. or are turned off because of the distro. risks.

Why not choose a different coin then?

There is a whole market out there of coins. If you don't like this coin, pick (or create) a different one!

I fail to see why this coin needs to be turned into something it is not in order to avoid being disliked by someone.

[Hexception]

I cannot believe I have just found out about this. I really need to check my old addresses.

[webchris]

Why not choose a different coin then?

There is a whole market out there of coins. If you don't like this coin, pick (or create) a different one!

I fail to see why this coin needs to be turned into something it is not in order to avoid being disliked by someone.

That's the same kind of attitude as "If you don't like this country, you can get out!"

Why does someone need to leave if they want to make things better?

[smooth]

Why not choose a different coin then?

There is a whole market out there of coins. If you don't like this coin, pick (or create) a different one!

I fail to see why this coin needs to be turned into something it is not in order to avoid being disliked by someone.

That's the same kind of attitude as "If you don't like this country, you can get out!"

Why does someone need to leave if they want to make things better?

There is not easy mobility between countries, nor can you create new countries easily, so the analogy is false. You can change your ownership of a coin with the click of a mouse, or fork a repo with a different click.

[jd1959]

Why not choose a different coin then?

There is a whole market out there of coins. If you don't like this coin, pick (or create) a different one!

I fail to see why this coin needs to be turned into something it is not in order to avoid being disliked by someone.

That's the same kind of attitude as "If you don't like this country, you can get out!"

Why does someone need to leave if they want to make things better?

I don't think it's a matter of get out if you don't like it......... it's a matter of you have the choice to create something better if this is so bad. I for 1 am happy with Clam the way things are. This conversation about

"Things Much Change" has only started since JD started accepting Clams. I see it as a bunch of gamblers trying to protect there value nothing else. I have nothing bad to say about Dooglus he has added greatly to Clam

in many ways.   

Jon 

[webchris]

There is not easy mobility between countries, nor can you create new countries easily, so the analogy is false. You can change your ownership of a coin with the click of a mouse, or fork a repo with a different click.

Well you could take that analogy to mean that. But essentially you are saying that you are not interested in CLAM changing in any way, so if anyone wants to change anything about the coin they need to leave? I get that you have an opinion. But a lot of us really like CLAM and want it to get better. Why start from scratch when you have something amazing already with just some imperfections?

I see it as a bunch of gamblers trying to protect there value nothing else.

I get this argument, and I'm sure there are many on the side of "stopping digging" that are supporting it purely out of self-interest. However, there are others of us who see it as a way to strengthen CLAM and remove the uncertainty that will haunt this coin forever until changed. If I was voting for stopping digging just for my own wallet I would say lets do it tomorrow. Or how about we invalidate all coins dug after I got mine. But I'm saying nothing like that at all. I'm saying lets have set a date at least 6 months or 1 year in the future and put a block number for a cutoff to stop digging. This will cause a renewed interest in the coin and renewed evangelism as everyone tells their friends to triple check those addresses. Then after that date, no more worries of clam tanking by some previously unknown force. CLAM owners will be able to make their own fate and not have it thrown to the wind.

[smooth]

Well you could take that analogy to mean that. But essentially you are saying that you are not interested in CLAM changing in any way, so if anyone wants to change anything about the coin they need to leave? I get that you have an opinion. But a lot of us really like CLAM and want it to get better. Why start from scratch when you have something amazing already with just some imperfections?

I don't consider the digging an imperfection. It is at the very core of what the coin is about. It's all over the branding. It is rediscovered by new community members every time the price goes up. It is the main thing that makes this coin different from many other pure PoS coins.

Furthermore I don't see blacklisting the undug clams as particularly different from any other blacklisting. They are literally just outputs on the blockchain that happen to be in blocks 0-10000.

I get this argument, and I'm sure there are many on the side of "stopping digging" that are supporting it purely out of self-interest. However, there are others of us who see it as a way to strengthen CLAM and remove the uncertainty that will haunt this coin forever until changed.

Funny thing is, some of us think that much, much greater "uncertainty" will haunt the coin forever if it is changed, because it will be clear that such changes are acceptable to the community and no one can ever know what other changes will be popular in the future. Unless you buy in as a massive whale who can vote to protect your own interests, you will need to just stay away.

So yes, if you want something that is effectively "WhaleCoin", then do this. I don't think that can work, but I may be wrong. It certainly can work if the idea is to never grow beyond JD. The CLAM = WhaleCoin = JD casino chips model probably works as long as JD's whales are trusted to redeem the chips at some reasonable value.

[thefix]

There is not easy mobility between countries, nor can you create new countries easily, so the analogy is false. You can change your ownership of a coin with the click of a mouse, or fork a repo with a different click.

Well you could take that analogy to mean that. But essentially you are saying that you are not interested in CLAM changing in any way, so if anyone wants to change anything about the coin they need to leave? I get that you have an opinion. But a lot of us really like CLAM and want it to get better. Why start from scratch when you have something amazing already with just some imperfections?

I see it as a bunch of gamblers trying to protect there value nothing else.

I get this argument, and I'm sure there are many on the side of "stopping digging" that are supporting it purely out of self-interest. However, there are others of us who see it as a way to strengthen CLAM and remove the uncertainty that will haunt this coin forever until changed. If I was voting for stopping digging just for my own wallet I would say lets do it tomorrow. Or how about we invalidate all coins dug after I got mine. But I'm saying nothing like that at all. I'm saying lets have set a date at least 6 months or 1 year in the future and put a block number for a cutoff to stop digging. This will cause a renewed interest in the coin and renewed evangelism as everyone tells their friends to triple check those addresses. Then after that date, no more worries of clam tanking by some previously unknown force. CLAM owners will be able to make their own fate and not have it thrown to the wind.

Better to vote for the progress you want to see with clam  http://txti.es/clamour

[chilly2k]

 But Petiton:5afa074c for remove digging has currently the strongest support (36.65% on just-dice).

   It's 36.65% of the actively voting shares on Just-dice.  18.7% of all shares. 

No, you have that backwards.

it's 36.65% of the whole Just-Dice weight.
50% of the Just-Dice weight didn't cast a vote.
So it's around 73% of the actively voting weight.

ie. 3 out of 4 of the weight that voted for anything voted to stop digging.

To see this, check https://just-dice.com/misc/clamour_weights.txt - here's a recent version with the numbers made more readable, and with non-5afa votes deleted:

  559,190.49019643 49.04% of the Just-Dice.com bankroll abstains from supporting any petition

        0.01502096 5afa074c e2ef93da ea06c089 ff839af9
    1,090.49167022 02fde4a4 066b223d 5afa074c 7a69a853 ea06c089 eff96b06 ff839af9
    3,808.15882920 5afa074c ea06c089 ff839af9
    8,657.26219872 5afa074c ff839af9
   10,124.50477201 5afa074c 7a69a853 ff839af9
   17,614.46605075 5afa074c ea06c089
   34,914.56979870 02fde4a4 5afa074c ea06c089 ff839af9
   47,721.12550031 5afa074c 7a69a853
  131,975.98013010 5afa074c 7a69a853 ea06c089 ff839af9
  164,747.32557619 5afa074c

560k didn't vote, representing ~50% of the total
1090 + 3808 + 8657 + 10124 + 17614 + 34914 + 47721 + 131975 + 164747 = 421k votes for 5afa, representing ~37% of the total.

Ahh,  I was looking at this, and assumed the top percentages equaled 100%, They're actually more then 100% because you can vote for multiple Clamour's.  At one time, did this display show the combined votes, IE such that the top part did equal 100% of the votes?  Maybe I'm dreaming... 

# 5afa074c has the support of 37.20% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/5afa074c
# ff839af9 has the support of 28.28% of the Just-Dice bankroll : https://gist.github.com/Kefkius/88e2a1a5c965f4be83e9
# ea06c089 has the support of 20.39% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/ea06c089
# 7a69a853 has the support of 18.79% of the Just-Dice bankroll
# 02fde4a4 has the support of  5.52% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/02fde4a4
# 0000cb61 has the support of  1.63% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/0000cb61
# 066b223d has the support of  1.18% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/066b223d
# e2ef93da has the support of  0.68% of the Just-Dice bankroll
# 694c26a6 has the support of  0.49% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/694c26a6
# c9328886 has the support of  0.49% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/c9328886
# eff96b06 has the support of  0.15% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/eff96b06
# deaddea1 has the support of  0.10% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/deaddea1

  55401113072445 48.59% of the Just-Dice.com bankroll abstains from supporting any petition

[dooglus]

xploited discovered recently that the client's tracking of the total amount dug up has been wrong ever since it started tracking. Not very wrong, but still wrong.

So all the charts I've posted have slightly underestimated the "digsupply".

I've reported (#263) and fixed (#264) the bug, and am now reindexing my copy of the blockchain to find out exactly how big the error is.

It turns out that whenever a single transaction dug multiple outputs from the same block, only one output from each block was counted.

My reindexing is at block 492713 so far.

The bug caused the digsupply to be calcuated as 318278.44073566 at that block; after fixing the bug it is 320668.67226472

That's an error of 100 * (320668.67226472 - 318278.44073566) / 320668.67226472 = 0.745%, so nothing major. I expect the percentage error will end up being smaller, because "curious" always dig his outputs in separate transactions (one dig per tx) and so the bug won't have shown up for any of his digs.

[smooth]

At one time, did this display show the combined votes, IE such that the top part did equal 100% of the votes?  Maybe I'm dreaming... 

I'm not sure but I think the original display only showed the unique combinations so that would indeed sum to 100% (if including abstain). Now it is broken down by each individual petition, which obviously doesn't sum to 100%.

[dooglus]

At one time, did this display show the combined votes, IE such that the top part did equal 100% of the votes?  Maybe I'm dreaming... 

I'm not sure but I think the original display only showed the unique combinations so that would indeed sum to 100% (if including abstain). Now it is broken down by each individual petition, which obviously doesn't sum to 100%.

Right.

The list of weights is used directly as an input to the JD wallets to tell them how to stake. Lines beginning with '#' are comments, ignored by the CLAM client.

I didn't used to include the comments, and only invluded the unique combinations (which sum to the size of the bankroll, in satoshis). I added the per-petition percentages since people requested them.

[jarvanIV]

Is it a good time to be buying Clams, any opinions on the matter?

[ReturnOfTheMAC]

Is it a good time to be buying Clams, any opinions on the matter?

Absolutely. We are in a manufactured shakeout right now - the buy walls came down to allow the coin to reach a 'worst case' price floor - when they go back up expect 500K very quickly.

[djhomeschool]

I cannot believe I have just found out about this. I really need to check my old addresses.

Better hurry up before we vote you out of the inn.

[sgravina]

How about a suicide Clamour.  The Clamour would say something like:

All Clams will be removed.  Digging and staking will cease.

This would make all clams unspendable.  It could be done by changing the code.

Would this create an existential loop?  Can clams vote for their own demise?  Once the clams are all gone does their vote sill count?

I'm not one to participate in political causes so maybe somebody else could do it.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

Once the clams are all gone does their vote sill count?

The CLAMs would have to go back in time to before the snapshot, the equivalent of oysters going forward in time.

[dooglus]

My reindexing is at block 492713 so far.

The bug caused the digsupply to be calcuated as 318278.44073566 at that block; after fixing the bug it is 320668.67226472

That's an error of 100 * (320668.67226472 - 318278.44073566) / 320668.67226472 = 0.745%, so nothing major. I expect the percentage error will end up being smaller, because "curious" always dig his outputs in separate transactions (one dig per tx) and so the bug won't have shown up for any of his digs.

After catching up with the longest chain:

  "blocks" : 771925,
  "digsupply" : 823174.55351186, <-- old version
  "digsupply" : 825790.45237218, <-- new version

So only 568 digs were missed, out of a total of 179307.

That's an error of 0.317%, and there are 2615.89886032 more CLAMs in the active supply than we previously thought. Sorry about that!

[P-Funk]

How about a suicide Clamour.  The Clamour would say something like:

All Clams will be removed.  Digging and staking will cease.

This would make all clams unspendable.  It could be done by changing the code.

Would this create an existential loop?  Can clams vote for their own demise?  Once the clams are all gone does their vote sill count?

I'm not one to participate in political causes so maybe somebody else could do it.

Go ahead and make it for fun and experience. Couldn't be worse than the Clamour petition that is simply a link to a gif of a dog fucking its own face. (# eff96b06 has the support of  0.15% of the Just-Dice bankroll : http://txti.es/eff96b06 [nsfw])

Hell, make it a piece of artwork in a modern art museum.