[XMR] Monero Speculation

[rdnkjdi]

Damnit wrong username.

Yeah so I don't really care about the moral flaws.  But they will be reflected in the economic flaws.  A single individual who can make more mining with his own botnet will choose to do so rather than dealing with multiple individuals to rent it out.

In the end the governance of this coin will reflect the difference between ASICs (Chinese who aren't paying for their own electricity - it is being subsidized by the government) and GPU miners.  My point is that that

A - in large part botnet miners won't lease out their mining to others which means they control the network.
B - they won't take an active role in choosing any type of direction for the network security in the same way Chinese miners haven't for bitcoin because they aren't paying the electric bill.

Person A is paying for what Person B is taking and selling.  There's less incentive for Person B (who IS controlling the network) to put forth active effort in governing (which is what he's doing) than there is a Person C who chooses to use his equipment and electricity to obtain something or participate in something he believes to be profitable.

It's not a moral argument in right vs wrong.  It's an argument that botnets won't be healthy from a governance perspective.

The point is that botnets are much more free market than electricity.

Again.  I couldn't disagree more.  Moral arguments aside (right, wrong etc doesn't matter) as long as you can be handcuffed and tossed in jail for doing something it is not part of a free market.  It's an underground market that threatens serious life altering consequences ... this is not free market

I think you've misread me arguing from some moral basis.  

From a practical standpoint there's very little different from me walking to my electric meter and plugging a wire into the supply side instead of the demand side & botnet mining.  Both will get me thrown in jail.  Both are exploiting the resources that others have not properly secured.  And neither are a free market.

[ArticMine]

The reason the FBI could get a third party to access the iPhone is because DRM, unlike real encryption such as what is used in Monero, is based on snake oil rather than sound mathematics.

Edit 2: The same or similar Apple DRM that the FBI broke, was used from 2009 to 2014 to censor Bitcoin and is currently used to censor Monero

Are you saying that Apple is lying when it says the user has the private keys and not Apple?

Apple was very disingenuous here.

The iPhone in question used a combination of real encryption and DRM. If the user uses a secure password then the real encryption kicks in and cracking the DRM will not let the investigators in; however if the user follows Apple's recommendation and uses a 4 digit number, as the password, then the real encryption is effectively neutered and only the DRM remains. The user's password controls the key of the real encryption. Apple controls the keys to the DRM.

Apple relied on its proprietary iOS, and keeping the source code of iOS secret (private key 1) to frustrate the investigation. Apple  also has a private key (private key 2) that controls what operating system software in installed on an iPhone. It also enforces what software can be installed on an iPhone. The FBI would have been perfectly content with the source code of iOS (private key number 1) and the installation key (private key number 2). This would have made the situation equivalent to someone using GNU PG (Licensed under GPL v3) the very software Edward Snowden used for his leaks. Use GNU PG with a 4 digit number as the password and it can also be trivially cracked. Use it with a secure password and it becomes impossible to crack.  The FBI had reason to believe that the terrorist had used a 4 digit number for the password.

Technically one can argue that Apple did not lie, since Apple did not know the 4 digit number that controlled the user key; however since the real encryption was already neutered the only keys that mattered were firmly under the control of Apple.  

Edit: This is not a complex system. Apple went out of its way to make it seem complex, in order to make the debate about real encryption rather than what was the real issue namely DRM.  Richard Stallman identified the issue of malicious features in proprietary software back in 2002. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html In this case they were used to frustrate a perfectly legal anti terrorism investigation .

[americanpegasus]

The recent price drop was surprising but it just goes to show why you should understand what you are invested in (whether it be through time, hashing power, or financially).  You should believe in it and understand why it has long-term value independent of the whims of the crowd. 
 
Who knows where the bottom is, but I am sure Monero will eventually go back up.  Then one day it will go down.  Then up again.
 
No free rides on the Monero rocket.

[TPTB_need_war]

The reason the FBI could get a third party to access the iPhone is because DRM, unlike real encryption such as what is used in Monero, is based on snake oil rather than sound mathematics.

Edit 2: The same or similar Apple DRM that the FBI broke, was used from 2009 to 2014 to censor Bitcoin and is currently used to censor Monero

Are you saying that Apple is lying when it says the user has the private keys and not Apple?

Apple was very disingenuous here.

The iPhone in question used a combination of real encryption and DRM. If the user uses a secure password then the real encryption kicks in and cracking the DRM will not let the investigators in; however if the user follows Apple's recommendation and uses a 4 digit number, as the password, then the real encryption is effectively neutered and only the DRM remains. The user's password controls the key of the real encryption. Apple controls the keys to the DRM.

Apple relied on its proprietary iOS, and keeping the source code of iOS secret (private key 1) to frustrate the investigation. Apple  also has a private key (private key 2) that controls what operating system software in installed on an iPhone. It also enforces what software can be installed on an iPhone. The FBI would have been perfectly content with the source code of iOS (private key number 1) and the installation key (private key number 2). This would have made the situation equivalent to someone using GNU PG (Licensed under GPL v3) the very software Edward Snowden used for his leaks. Use GNU PG with a 4 digit number as the password and it can also be trivially cracked. Use it with a secure password and it becomes impossible to crack.  The FBI had reason to believe that the terrorist had used a 4 digit number for the password.

Technically one can argue that Apple did not lie, since Apple did not know the 4 digit number that controlled the user key; however since the real encryption was already neutered the only keys that mattered were firmly under the control of Apple.

ArticMine thank you. I learned something new and important. Do you have any citation to backup your claim of Apple's recommend policy of using an insecure password and their DRM?

[ArticMine]

...

ArticMine thank you. I learned something new and important. Do you have any citation to backup your claim of Apple's recommend policy of using an insecure password and their DRM?

Tap Turn Passcode On.
Enter a six-digit passcode. Or tap Passcode Options to switch to a four-digit numeric code, a custom numeric code, or a custom alphanumeric code.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT204060

Edit: I stand corrected Apple's default is a 6 digit numeric number as the password also trivial to crack.

[TPTB_need_war]

...

ArticMine thank you. I learned something new and important. Do you have any citation to backup your claim of Apple's recommend policy of using an insecure password and their DRM?

Tap Turn Passcode On.
Enter a six-digit passcode. Or tap Passcode Options to switch to a four-digit numeric code, a custom numeric code, or a custom alphanumeric code.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT204060

Edit: I stand corrected Apple's default is a 6 digit numeric number as the password also trivial to crack.

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

Whether Apple is infiltrated and that the OS is closed source, is a point of concern I agree with.

[vokain]

...

ArticMine thank you. I learned something new and important. Do you have any citation to backup your claim of Apple's recommend policy of using an insecure password and their DRM?

Tap Turn Passcode On.
Enter a six-digit passcode. Or tap Passcode Options to switch to a four-digit numeric code, a custom numeric code, or a custom alphanumeric code.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT204060

Edit: I stand corrected Apple's default is a 6 digit numeric number as the password also trivial to crack.

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

To have TouchID you must have a typeable pw backup

[TPTB_need_war]

...

ArticMine thank you. I learned something new and important. Do you have any citation to backup your claim of Apple's recommend policy of using an insecure password and their DRM?

Tap Turn Passcode On.
Enter a six-digit passcode. Or tap Passcode Options to switch to a four-digit numeric code, a custom numeric code, or a custom alphanumeric code.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT204060

Edit: I stand corrected Apple's default is a 6 digit numeric number as the password also trivial to crack.

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

To have TouchID you must have a typeable pw backup

Details please? Where is the specification for all this stuff? Closed source?

[ArticMine]

...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

Edit: Remembering a well chosen secure password can actually be easier than remembering a six digit number.

[smooth]

...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

Also, TouchID is only a secondary mechanism. When you power cycle an iOS device you always have to unlock it with he password first, only then can you use TouchID. Later, you can use the password instead (necessary if TouchID doesn't work, which apparently is not so uncommon).

Finally, I don't think the phone in question had TouchID

[smooth]

...

ArticMine thank you. I learned something new and important. Do you have any citation to backup your claim of Apple's recommend policy of using an insecure password and their DRM?

Tap Turn Passcode On.
Enter a six-digit passcode. Or tap Passcode Options to switch to a four-digit numeric code, a custom numeric code, or a custom alphanumeric code.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT204060

Edit: I stand corrected Apple's default is a 6 digit numeric number as the password also trivial to crack.

This was changed fairly recently, and yes I agree it is still pretty trivial to crack. Interestingly there are some, err, "bugs" that will sometimes require you to set specifically a 4 digit passcode. You can change it later, but some people won't...

[TPTB_need_war]

...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.

[vuduchyld]

Think about some of the obvious use cases we all dream about...getting paid in crypto.  Should everybody in the world have a salary that is public record?

Do we want to have psychopaths monitoring every dime spent by every public figure?  Do I even care or should I know how much my mayor paid for that refrigerator?

If I were senior manager of a company, particularly one in the R&D side of things, would I want all of my competitors to know what I'm spending on?

Perfect example.  Agree totally.

[smooth]

...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.

TouchID is, at present, a convenience feature that allows fast unlocking functions instead of typing in a passcode. It is never required and the passcode is always required. Thus it can't possibly add any additional security beyond what the passphrase already provides.

What they have planned for the future I have no idea.

[TPTB_need_war]

...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.

TouchID is, at present, a convenience feature that allows fast unlocking functions instead of typing in a passcode. It is never required and the passcode is always required. Thus it can't possibly add any additional security beyond what the passphrase already provides.

What they have planned for the future I have no idea.

But if you can access with TouchID, then you can justify typing a secure passcode if you want one because you won't lose access if you forget your passcode (or only have it written down at an inconvenient location).

I am asking for proof that doing that, will still rely on DRM which can be used to decode your private files.

Sorry religious arguments (e.g. "Apple is closed source therefor they must be doing evil in every aspect") are not logic for me. I need the logic.

[ArticMine]

...

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

Be honest with the end user rather than try to mislead in order to market. Giving the end user a false sense of security is far worse than no security at all. The key here is that the end user makes an informed choice. The user then makes a trade off between security and convenience.

1) A secure password.
2) A separate key that can be inserted into the device.
3) No security. Rely only on physical possession. User does not keep sensitive data on the device.
4) Weak security / DRM. Useful only if one wants to delay rather than prevent access. This can be effective where time is of the essence to an attacker.

An example of (4) where delay could work. Let us say one stores the Monero keywords un encrypted on a 5.25in floppy disk, and then places the 5.25in floppy disk in a bank safety deposit box. If the safety deposit box is compromised then the owner can empty the Monero wallet while the attacker tries to figure out how to read the 5.25 in floppy disk. One the other hand let us say the owner dies. Then the executor of the Monero owner's estate has ample time to figure out how to read the 5.25 in floppy disk.

[smooth]

...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.

TouchID is, at present, a convenience feature that allows fast unlocking functions instead of typing in a passcode. It is never required and the passcode is always required. Thus it can't possibly add any additional security beyond what the passphrase already provides.

What they have planned for the future I have no idea.

But if you can access with TouchID, then you can justify typing a secure passcode if you want one because you won't lose access if you forget your passcode (or only have it written down at an inconvenient location).

If you are traveling away from the inconvenient location, and your phone resets for whatever reason (including an OS bug/crash, dead battery, etc.), you will lose access to it. Also some other operations you might want to perform such as upgrades require that actual passcode, not touchID. So this is, at present, impractical.

Also, you will lose access entirely if you forget the strong password and don't even have it written down in an inconvenient location.

I am asking for proof that doing that, will still rely on DRM which can be used to decode your private files.

If you use a strong password, you wouldn't be following Apple's recommendations, which was what ArticMine's said earlier.

[TPTB_need_war]

...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.

TouchID is, at present, a convenience feature that allows fast unlocking functions instead of typing in a passcode. It is never required and the passcode is always required. Thus it can't possibly add any additional security beyond what the passphrase already provides.

What they have planned for the future I have no idea.

But if you can access with TouchID, then you can justify typing a secure passcode if you want one because you won't lose access if you forget your passcode (or only have it written down at an inconvenient location).

If you are traveling away from the inconvenient location, and your phone resets for whatever reason (including an OS bug/crash, dead battery, etc.), you will lose access to it. Also some other operations you might want to perform such as upgrades require that actual passcode, not touchID. So this is, at present, impractical.

Also, you will lose access entirely if you forget the strong password and don't even have it written down in an inconvenient location.

I am asking for proof that doing that, will still rely on DRM which can be used to decode your private files.

If you use a strong password, you wouldn't be following Apple's recommendations, which was what ArticMine's said earlier.

Sorry I am not seeing it the way you are trying to spin it.

What I see is that there is no solution for a long password in any case where you wouldn't leave it an inconvenient location. Open source or not.

Apple has done the best they can, by allowing you to have a very secure password with a fingerprint access where you don't need the secure password.

Why would a phone reset lose my fingerprint hash 

Citations please. And also citation that Apple recommends 6 letter passcode when using TouchID and makes no mention of the option to set a secure password when using TouchID?

[smooth]

Why would a phone reset lose my fingerprint hash  

Ask Apple, i don't know the details of the implementation or design decision. Maybe it doesn't lose it, but Apple still requires the passcode after a reset, for whatever their reasons.

I agree with you that it is possible to do what you suggest (long secure password, assuming you don't lose it), but very few people do it or will ever do it.

Citations please.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-touch-ID-on-the-iPhone-5S-ask-you-to-enter-a-password-after-restart-and-not-just-allow-fingerprint-scanning-alone

We're veering off topic in any case, I think, unless Monero has similar issues.

[TPTB_need_war]

...

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

Be honest with the end user rather than try to mislead in order to market. Giving the end user a false sense of security is far worse than no security at all. The key here is that the end user makes an informed choice. The user then makes a trade off between security and convenience.

1) A secure password.
2) A separate key that can be inserted into the device.
3) No security. Rely only on physical possession. User does not keep sensitive data on the device.
4) Weak security / DRM. Useful only if one wants to delay rather than prevent access. This can be effective where time is of the essence to an attacker.

Please explain how TouchID with a secure password is dependent on DRM?

Apple can't force people to adopt strong security if they have no desire to. Those who have a desire to, will use a secure password and TouchID (or not use Apple device).

I don't see the citations that show me that Apple has forced everyone to accept DRM for their security?