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Author Topic: Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s  (Read 96767 times)
Pentax
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July 03, 2014, 11:15:06 AM
 #1141

and, of course:

Article 24 Business operators may not, through format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on, impose unfair or unreasonable rules on consumers or reduce or escape their civil liability for their infringement of the legitimate rights and interests of consumers.

Format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on with contents mentioned in the preceding paragraph shall be invalid.
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July 03, 2014, 11:23:42 AM
 #1142

China has some very advanced consumer protection laws. I read they just drafted these. Are they retroactive?

These absolutly destroy BA's TOS. There's no way BA can keep our money and not deliver while claiming we agreed to it.
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July 03, 2014, 11:49:06 AM
 #1143

China has some very advanced consumer protection laws. I read they just drafted these. Are they retroactive?

These absolutly destroy BA's TOS. There's no way BA can keep our money and not deliver while claiming we agreed to it.

These come from the last law.  The new law is more advanced and up to date.

However, I have seen Black Arrow staff on their forums state that they think they do not have to follow the new laws because they state that in their opinion these purchases were made before that law fully took effect, so I posted these, although I would obviously dispute their claim that they do not have to follow the current law, and will allow them to argue that with their government if they so choose.

I have been advised by the attorneys I have talked to in China to:

1.  Try to work with Black Arrow first and to document everything.  Be sure to keep own copies of tickets e-mails.  I know that if you open a new ticket they may take down the old ticket so that text will be lost.  I've obviously done this, but if people have not, open tickets and document, document, document.

2. File complaints with appropriate state and consumer agencies.  http://www.saic.gov.cn/english/ContactUs/
https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en

3. take it to court if none of that works.

It's time to stop the complaining on this forum and via e-mail to Black Arrow, as it is not getting anything done, at least for me in terms of getting my money refunded.  They simply offer excuses and delay further.  If people want their money back they'll have to take it up a level.

I will continue to talk to lawyers in China about the proper course of action in terms of litigation and keep people informed, however, their initial advice is to get a solid paper trail moving on actions you've taken to try to work this out without going to court.  Be polite, but firm, in your communications, ie, don't swear, insult or berate.  This will not be looked on favorably by the court.
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July 03, 2014, 12:20:18 PM
Last edit: July 03, 2014, 12:39:28 PM by Pentax
 #1144

China has some very advanced consumer protection laws. I read they just drafted these. Are they retroactive?

These absolutly destroy BA's TOS. There's no way BA can keep our money and not deliver while claiming we agreed to it.

These come from the last law.  The new law is more advanced and up to date.

However, I have seen Black Arrow staff on their forums state that they think they do not have to follow the new laws because they state that in their opinion these purchases were made before that law fully took effect, so I posted these, although I would obviously dispute their claim that they do not have to follow the current law, and will allow them to argue that with their government if they so choose.

I have been advised by the attorneys I have talked to in China to:

1.  Try to work with Black Arrow first and to document everything.  Be sure to keep your own copies of tickets and e-mails.  I know that if you open a new ticket they may take down the old ticket so that text will be lost.  I've obviously done this, but if people have not, open tickets and document, document, document.

2. File complaints with appropriate state and consumer agencies.  http://www.saic.gov.cn/english/ContactUs/
https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en

3. take it to court if none of that works.

It's time to stop the complaining on this forum and via e-mail to Black Arrow, as it is not getting anything done, at least for me in terms of getting my money refunded.  They simply offer excuses and delay further.  If people want their money back they'll have to take it up a level.

I will continue to talk to lawyers in China about the proper course of action in terms of litigation and keep people informed, however, their initial advice is to get a solid paper trail moving on actions you've taken to try to work this out without going to court.  Be polite, but firm, in your communications, ie, don't swear, insult or berate.  This will not be looked on favorably by the court.


Full text of that law here, BTW:

http://www.china.org.cn/china/LegislationsForm2001-2010/2011-02/14/content_21917139.htm



Pentax
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July 03, 2014, 12:55:44 PM
 #1145

Hello X-3, anybody home?  Anybody there?

It's lonely being the only multi terrahash miner on the block... Cry Cry Cry








.....signs you might have a bitcoin mining problem.   Cheesy
Pentax
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July 03, 2014, 07:01:46 PM
 #1146

I would regularly make some sort of archival copy of this thread and ecointalk, because in the face of imminent litigation their first move will likely be to completely nuke both. David likely is no longer saying anything on either forum likely because they are more concerned now that his nonsense has potential legal ramifications.


easy enough to do for this thread, just hit the print tab at the top or bottom of the thread body.

save the whole thing to pdf.

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July 04, 2014, 04:11:16 AM
 #1147

Bitcoin Difficulty:   16,818,461,371
Estimated Next Difficulty:   18,314,046,691 (+8.89%)
Adjust time:   After 1361 Blocks, About 9.7 days
Hashrate(?):   114,054,140 GH/s

Source: https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

The network difficulty isn't going down any time soon inspite of what some pool nodes may currently be displaying.
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July 04, 2014, 04:47:09 PM
 #1148

so they've run with the money? not good.  Embarrassed

And our profits,..

Scenario A.
Lets just use the a small scale example using x-3's for this little adventure... (obviously the numbers are bigger, but the shoe still fits).

Lets say it takes $3-5M to get through the design and initial products phase (as it's outsourced, lets just call it a direct cost)
You sell miners at 5K each,.. You only need to sell 400-600 x3's to cover your expenses. (easy enough based on making insanely inaccurate promises)
You plan to have them done and ready to ship by the first of the year but then think,.. "If we keep these in house mining we'll make about 10K each off of them, so lets get them done, and then keep them in house till feb." (double all these numbers and it still works out logically)

You create your miners, (maybe they even show up a little early) and have them up and mining, and delivery time comes and someone says "Yknow, mining companies have issues all the time. I mean sure this is pretty much proven technology now, it's like saying we're making a PC that "somehow" isn't going to work right, but people will believe that because all the guys before had problems, let's just kick it out a month or so and say we had manufacturing issues. They all must be kinda stupid for pre-ordering stuff like this anyway, so it's not like they'll catch on or do anything about it. There's a TON of reasons we can invent for things not shipping "till next week."


Another 5K(ish) per unit rolls in (because now difficulty is going up).
The initial "sell" of 400 units has now minted $6M if every initial sale was at 100% cost mitigating.
BA thinks,... "Shit we still haven't shipped and all they do is piss and moan and take it out on the poor sap resellers we suckered in. We really aren't at any risk at all and we just get to keep printing money, why stop?"

"Let's just keep it going till the very last second (when we actually get some calls from legal reps, and after these things are costing us more in electricity to run than they make) we'll ship them out and say "Oh golly sorry it took so long but BTC could go up to 10K each, and then you'll ROI, and we DID deliver them so.... so sorry, no refund you have a fully functioning miner now, please buy our other products, we'll do better next time, promise,  here's a coupon.""

Or now that they've sucked all the life out of the miners, they actually WILL do a 100% buy one get one match and STILL make a mega killing of our hardware.
And they'll fuck you on delivery of the PS's because it only costs $20 to deliver those, and They probably only cost $15 to begin with so...MOAR PROFFIT!(volume discount + aggregator which is what most Chinese tech companies do)
And they'll prefer doing that over giving you hosting as comp because they have to pay the electricity to run those now ROIless units.
Oh and lets give them some coupons for our other vaporware shit, not 100% off coupons (hell no) but something like "%25 with payment up front so we can ride this pony all over again. Maybe this time we really will just keep them in house for a few months then ship. We really should go legit as we're all rolling in cash now."

And that alone 100% justifies everything we've all been through because they sell a product that will go obsolete and they know it, BTC products at this scale are no more. It's a business that can't last and non SHA-256 coins will be the future, so why not risk it all to get it all.

Everything above is based on "guesstimating" really shitty sales numbers. Based on order numbers I'm guessing they have at least 1K X3 orders minimum, plus all the X1's and hosting. (roughly $15M profit worst case minimum in this scenario)

I could walk into a lawyers office tomorrow, lay this scenario out, in this market, hand him $2M and be 100% assured that I would never lose another dime on this venture if I didn't want to and he'd be correct. Fledgeling market, international buyers, China, pre-orders, precedent of other companies etc.. etc.. ZERO chance of winning a lawsuit with a multimilliondollar firm VS "the best we all could come up with"


Or,... As some people would still try to believe this happened:
Scenario B.

Technology company who has already gone through large scale IT/Tech products gets into market.
Apparently they look at investing millions without doing a lot of research across the board (they don't pre-engage their manufacturers, they don't use existing manufacturers or engage companies who have any kind of time turn vs pricing guarantees.
Prototypes weren't ordered for testing and when they were the production models were miraculously completely different and caused craziness.
Communication that could have saved time/effort/woe was negated from inception to this day.
Ties to major scam/confidence companies exist but have NOTHING to do with any of this.
Products are pre-sold before they do any of the *real* design or research outside of CAD drawings despite having specs available day 1.
Then at EVERY SINGLE potential point of failure between design and delivery, something amazingly goes wrong at the last possible second injecting a new delay, despite them having and giving assurances to the contrary at every stage.
And somehow simple basic design things were completely left out of the process until "the week before shipping was supposed to happen"

Occam's razor.
It's way more likely that these guys took "Massive Profits" with almost zero risk, as opposed to doing honest business and seeing a tiny fraction of the same money.


Hell, truth be told, if most of us were honest, we'd do the EXACT same thing if we knew we'd get away with it, be anonymous, and make millions of dollars. I'm honest enough to say I would.
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July 04, 2014, 05:03:31 PM
 #1149

Well, at this point I am joining the club of being skeptical that the remaining X-1s will ship. I think I'll wait till S3 are delivering and if the X-1s haven't dropped by then I will get my refund from Minersource and pick up S3 units.
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July 04, 2014, 07:31:19 PM
Last edit: July 04, 2014, 07:46:36 PM by marquix
 #1150

so they've run with the money? not good.  :-[

And our profits,..

Scenario A.
Lets just use the a small scale example using x-3's for this little adventure... (obviously the numbers are bigger, but the shoe still fits).

Lets say it takes $3-5M to get through the design and
(...)

Or,... As some people would still try to believe this happened:
Scenario B.

Technology company who has already gone through large scale IT/Tech products
(...)

Occam's razor.
It's way more likely that these guys took "Massive Profits" with almost zero risk (...)



hate to admit it, but this sounds bloody likely -- incentive-wise, and considering that not everybody has any feel for "honor" remaining inside of their hollow shells (and also considering that we are dealing with a bunch of Chinese characters at the other end of the deal who are known to not perform under any contract unless they don't absolutely "want to")...

Starting to feel for the poor Minersource guys -- in a way -- but they're the ones who chose BA and they're also still our counterparty in this increasingly frustrating deal. So they are the ones who need to do the refunds for those who want them -- or miraculously deliver the miners for the ones who want them after all.

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July 04, 2014, 09:07:23 PM
 #1151

So is this it? Is the long wait for a conclusion to this long con finally here?

No product, no refunds and now no communication. Looks like the delay train has reached its final destination!

Perhaps Interpol could make themselves useful no? This is a multi-million dollar fraud after all....
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July 04, 2014, 10:35:26 PM
 #1152

So is this it? Is the long wait for a conclusion to this long con finally here?

No product, no refunds and now no communication. Looks like the delay train has reached its final destination!

Perhaps Interpol could make themselves useful no? This is a multi-million dollar fraud after all....

no, this is just hearsay so far -- Minersource still can do the right thing and  (1) DELIVER or (2) do no-nonsense refunds in order to stay out of trouble -- and they better!

Unfortunately most of us ordered directly from BA. While I'm not 100% sure that Minersource isn't hosting our ASICs in a secret location for BA it does look like they are just as fucked as we are if not more so.
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July 05, 2014, 12:11:27 AM
 #1153

Gotta love the shill (EPLDCC) who just posted on the BA forum... Mining calculators are wrong and can't be used to calculate ROI, BA is not a scam and 3 to 6 months is a short delay.

LOL, what a fucking jackass.

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July 05, 2014, 12:32:27 AM
 #1154

Gotta love the shill (EPLDCC) who just posted on the BA forum... Mining calculators are wrong and can't be used to calculate ROI, BA is not a scam and 3 to 6 months is a short delay.

LOL, what a fucking jackass.




no such thing as a short delay in bitcoin mining.  every second counts.
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July 05, 2014, 03:21:35 PM
 #1155

Lies, lies, and more lies. Don't be fooled. This scam has gone on long enough.

It's time to file fraud reports with the FBI/DOJ in the US (http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx), the State Administration for Industry and Commerce of the PRC (http://www.saic.gov.cn/english/ContactUs/), and the Consumer Council in HK (https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en). We need everyone who is still waiting on the side lines to step up and file now! The only way this will get traction is if enough of us file reports now. It will be too late if you wait another month, two months, or longer until the delay tactics finally wear on you.

First off I would like to apologize for the loss of communication and information. The past few days have been very busy for everybody, and contact was a bit difficult at some times.

At the moment we are in full production. The X-3 backplanes we tested are working and we are producing them now. We are also busy shipping the X-1's. We have a few X-3 backplanes that are made by hand undergoing tests and software tuning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfwnKZTeAG8

The noise in the video is not from the miner but background noise. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Here are also some more pictures: http://ecointalk.net/gallery/album/41-05-07-2104/
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July 05, 2014, 03:44:04 PM
 #1156

First off I would like to apologize for the loss of communication and information. The past few days have been very busy for everybody, and contact was a bit difficult at some times.

At the moment we are in full production. The X-3 backplanes we tested are working and we are producing them now. We are also busy shipping the X-1's. We have a few X-3 backplanes that are made by hand undergoing tests and software tuning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfwnKZTeAG8

The noise in the video is not from the miner but background noise. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Here are also some more pictures: http://ecointalk.net/gallery/album/41-05-07-2104/

what is going on with refunds David?  Customers need to be updated in a meaningful way on that issue.

I know you guys are  busy, but it has been months for some of us on this. 
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July 05, 2014, 03:51:10 PM
 #1157

They have started to delete my posts, which only fuels my anger at making sure they fail. File reports against them everywhere! I will do what I can to alert governmental bodies, and inform future customers so that they never receive another dollar from customers.

This scum/scam of a company needs to be weeded out.  You guys are the most pathetic excuse for a company I have ever seen.  There has only been 2 companies that have taken over 2 months to get miners out once chips have arrived.  Congrats you pieces of shut, your now in line with the likes of BFL, way to make a splash you horrible horrible people.

I pledge to continue as many warning and flaming posts about this POS company as I can to make sure they fail, although they don't really need my help for that since they do a pretty good job of it.  You guys are shit.

Get paid crypto to walk or drive. Play CoinHuntWorld! Earn Hundreds Monthly!
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July 05, 2014, 04:31:20 PM
 #1158

And to the top  Wink.

Lies, lies, and more lies. Don't be fooled. This scam has gone on long enough.

It's time to file fraud reports with the FBI/DOJ in the US (http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx), the State Administration for Industry and Commerce of the PRC (http://www.saic.gov.cn/english/ContactUs/), and the Consumer Council in HK (https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en). We need everyone who is still waiting on the side lines to step up and file now! The only way this will get traction is if enough of us file reports now. It will be too late if you wait another month, two months, or longer until the delay tactics finally wear on you.

First off I would like to apologize for the loss of communication and information. The past few days have been very busy for everybody, and contact was a bit difficult at some times.

At the moment we are in full production. The X-3 backplanes we tested are working and we are producing them now. We are also busy shipping the X-1's. We have a few X-3 backplanes that are made by hand undergoing tests and software tuning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfwnKZTeAG8

The noise in the video is not from the miner but background noise. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Here are also some more pictures: http://ecointalk.net/gallery/album/41-05-07-2104/
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July 05, 2014, 04:55:44 PM
 #1159

The surprise is that sweet X1 graphic on the front next to the ... oh, no LCD. They STILL haven't figured that out yet.

And now that I've thought about it for a minute, why is the X1 graphic oriented that way if these miners are intended to run on their side? I hope they get the correct orientation on the LCD whenever that gets installed.

Haha good call, add it to the list of fail

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July 05, 2014, 05:56:15 PM
 #1160

They have started to delete my posts, which only fuels my anger at making sure they fail. File reports against them everywhere! I will do what I can to alert governmental bodies, and inform future customers so that they never receive another dollar from customers.

This scum/scam of a company needs to be weeded out.  You guys are the most pathetic excuse for a company I have ever seen.  There has only been 2 companies that have taken over 2 months to get miners out once chips have arrived.  Congrats you pieces of shut, your now in line with the likes of BFL, way to make a splash you horrible horrible people.

I pledge to continue as many warning and flaming posts about this POS company as I can to make sure they fail, although they don't really need my help for that since they do a pretty good job of it.  You guys are shit.

I downloaded all 47MB of the thread to pdf on Thursday just for an instance such as this.

yep, I've got it also.
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