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[ComputerGenie]

...When the resale value exceeds the reasonable expectation of what you can possibly mine with the device - you should get rid of it (or not buy it to begin with) - wouldn't you agree? Unless it's a hobby. In which case none of the ROI talk matters anyway.

To coin an '80s phrase, "There ain't no half steppin'!"
When the resale value of S9s exceed what one can get out of them,either: you don't own enough of them; a more efficient rig has been put on the market (and you're going to dump S9s on some broke n00b); or you have no future vision of the value of BTC

[tournamentdan]

...The only real advantage of the S9 is its resale value, which for some inexplicable reason is still very high...

Unless you're dying and need quick liquidation or a more efficient model comes out, who cares about resale value? 

I'm pretty sure there are more than just those two reasons for reselling miners

When the resale value exceeds the reasonable expectation of what you can possibly mine with the device - you should get rid of it (or not buy it to begin with) - wouldn't you agree? Unless it's a hobby. In which case none of the ROI talk matters anyway.

I don't know about you but, my ROI is 4.87 months. Is that good enough?

[ComputerGenie]

I don't know about you but, my ROI is 4.87 months. Is that good enough?

Given that I bounce the whole space (mining BTC, mining a couple altcoins, and trading), mine is usually a little bit less than that; but I'll sit back and watch the naysayers call us liars.

[tournamentdan]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that S9s aren't a steaming pile of bovine dung; I'm saying that, dung or not, they pay the bills better than the current alternatives.

Not if they're not finding blocks...

I am not sure how to interpret this from a practical point of view.
do other pools have the same phenomenon? What about slush's or other non-bitmain associated pools?
If they do-I will subscribe to this argument of "poison" S9 v1
If they don't-?

Are you saying the bad luck this pool is having is not really bad luck, just S9 not finding blocks on this pool?

Meanwhile the latest S9v1 statistics on the pool since the S9 existed:

They've found 82 Blocks, but expected to have found (BDR) 110.666 ...

Kano does a luck report regularly to find block withholders - they show up as making no blocks at all over an extended period when they should have made some (it's random so you can't detect it until they've been hashing many blocks' worth). He reports it here regularly though I'm not sure everyone understands the implications of the report. The S9 batch 1 across all miners as you see above by now should have found 110 blocks based on the total hashes they've submitted to this pool but have so far only found 82. This is by far worse than any other device that we can positively identify. We can only speculate why this is, but the batch 1 firmware also had some other stratum extension that was never working on any pools so it was removed in later firmware. It is possible there is some kind of bug in the original firmware.

This is why he was urging everyone with S9s that was still on v1 firmware to upgrade. I'm aware that you lose some kind of frequency control or fan control or something by upgrading but that's nowhere near as bad as (potentially) losing blocks.

As for whether other pools are affected, we can only report accurately what happens here, and only speculate what is happening on other pools based on people grumbling about bad luck on almost every other pool thread. It certainly looks like global luck has been down across all pools since the S9 came out, but I can't say anything for certain.

I guess I am just missing something here. How can you compare expected blocks of different miners when different miners are on this pool. The work sent from kano to the miners is random right? So if a A6 hits a block. It is most likely because s9's did a lot of the work. Or A7's,s5's,s3's,or whatever else miners are out there. The only way you could truly compare the expected blocks is if they were each in their own pool.

[-ck]

I guess I am just missing something here. How can you compare expected blocks of different miners when different miners are on this pool. The work sent from kano to the miners is random right? So if a A6 hits a block. It is most likely because s9's did a lot of the work. Or A7's,s5's,s3's,or whatever else miners are out there. The only way you could truly compare the expected blocks is if they were each in their own pool.

We can identify most mining hardware from the mining protocol information so we can associate shares with the mining hardware it came from and derive statistical data from that. That's done in addition to checking the mining data on a per-user and per-worker basis.

[tournamentdan]

I guess I am just missing something here. How can you compare expected blocks of different miners when different miners are on this pool. The work sent from kano to the miners is random right? So if a A6 hits a block. It is most likely because s9's did a lot of the work. Or A7's,s5's,s3's,or whatever else miners are out there. The only way you could truly compare the expected blocks is if they were each in their own pool.

We can identify most mining hardware from the mining protocol information so we can associate shares with the mining hardware it came from and derive statistical data from that. That's done in addition to checking the mining data on a per-user and per-worker basis.

Right. But the A6 did not find the block all by it self. It got there because of the work done by all. Right?

[VRobb]

Nope, independent events.  Each share is found on its own as I'm sure -ck will point out with more elegance than I.

[-ck]

Right. But the A6 did not find the block all by it self. It got there because of the work done by all. Right?

Nope, independent events.  Each share is found on its own as I'm sure -ck will point out with more elegance than I.

There is no such thing as "progress towards a block". Every single hash has a chance of finding a block and is completely independent of every other hash on the same hardware even, let alone a whole pool.

[clgrissom3]

Block by schmokeandapancake! 

[Biffa]

NOICE

[kano]

...The S9 batch 1 across all miners as you see above by now should have found 110 blocks based on the total hashes they've submitted to this pool but have so far only found 82. This is by far worse than any other device that we can positively identify....

Yeah, no. As I posted before......

...

Code:

Name         CDF[Erl]
S9v1         0.994766  103.6 BDR   79 Blocks
...
A7v1         0.772224    6.5 BDR    5 Blocks
...

...

When extrapolated, 6.5:5 is virtually* the same as 103.6:79!
...

Please don't comment about statistics since you clearly do NOT understand how false that statement is.

The probability of 6.5:5 (or worse) happening is CDF[Erl] 0.772224 which means about 1 in 22 blocks

The probability of 103.6:79 (or worse) happening is CDF[Erl] 0.994766 which means about 1 in 15,093 blocks .... and yes it has got WORSE since then.
Yes it is VERY unlikely.

I already pointed out to you that it is NOT linear.

Any posts by you that include statistics I will delete.

--

As for A6+? it simply means that it is A6 + possible unknown miners

I did NOT say A6+ I said A6+?

[ComputerGenie]

....
Any more posts by you that include statistics I will delete.

Here's some stats that you can delete (or not):

• 100% of my personal opinion of you is such that it cannot be posted in a PG forum
• 100% of your fanboy stats are worthless and skewed
• 0% is the statistical probability of you having any input in any conversation that has to do with Bitmain or Antminers that is not skewed by your opinion of the company and it's practices
• 0% is the statistical probability of you convincing anyone that passed a grade higher than 3 that 6:5, 12:10, 120:100, and 600:500 aren't all the same thing -1.2:1
• 0% of your deletion threats are given a shit about by anyone over 12 years old

[firetreeactual]

That "Ignore" button is starting to look good again... 

[kano]

....
Any more posts by you that include statistics I will delete.

Here's some stats that you can delete (or not):

• 100% of my personal opinion of you is such that it cannot be posted in a PG forum
• 100% of your fanboy stats are worthless and skewed
• 0% is the statistical probability of you having any input in any conversation that has to do with Bitmain or Antminers that is not skewed by your opinion of the company and it's practices
• 0% is the statistical probability of you convincing anyone that passed a grade higher than 3 that 6:5, 12:10, 120:100, and 600:500 aren't all the same thing -1.2:1
• 0% of your deletion threats are given a shit about by anyone over 12 years old

My opinion of you is very low also, but that's not relevant.

My problems is that you are trying to tell me that what I spend a LOT of time on and know a LOT about regarding the statistics of the pool is false and your posts are incorrect in your comments about statistics.

And you have again said that above - this is false:

• 0% is the statistical probability of you convincing anyone that passed a grade higher than 3 that 6:5, 12:10, 120:100, and 600:500 aren't all the same thing -1.2:1

• 0% of your deletion threats are given a shit about by anyone over 12 years old

I don't care, but I guess you don't fall in that category of over 12?
My point is that you keep trying to tell me I'm wrong and you clearly do NOT understand statistics, thus I will continue to delete anything you post about statistics coz it pisses me off that it is something I spend so much time on and someone who clearly doesn't understand stats is telling me I'm wrong, when in fact I am impartial in the statistics I've reported.

Edit: P.S. I have never anywhere said that S9v1 is the cause of all the bad pool luck. That is something you said. I have simply reported that they have the WORST luck on the pool and they are at such a level that it suggests there is something wrong.

--

Edit2: here, although you want to tell me it's basic maths and you know what you are talking about, and I am wrong, I'll give you a simple example that points out you are wrong:

Flip a coin 3 times.
Say you get 2 heads and 1 tail - yeah that's not unexpected at all

Flip a coin 300 times.
Say you get 200 heads and 100 tails - yeah that is VERY unlikely.
It would mean there is VERY likely bias in the coin flipping process.

[philipma1957]

He trolls  this thread a lot.

I have been loyal  to kano's pool .

I am good at math .

And as I pointed out earlier  his math on the Avalon 7  was using price points that were completely  wrong..  

Frankly  the s9 is cheaper then the avalon 7  even with  the  numbers I used.


But the older s9's were sold as freq adjustable.  Which  is part of the reason I purchased the six that I did.

My use of them and locations for them are dictated by   sound and heat in part.

My gear ran  within specs given by bitmaintech and my gear  broke down at a high rate.

My repaired gear which was sold and used by a different miner also broke down at a high rate.

Finally  if it turns out that avalon 7 becomes  a .99 cdf loser  like the older s9 is  I will move it.

But .99 cdf  over 100 blocks vs .77 cdf over 5 or 6 blocks  means nothing.

So I will give the avalon a  lot more time  before I make a decision as to where to mine with it.

to prove a point  last:
20 of 20 posts are on Kano's thread
35 of 40 posts are on Kano's thread

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=861346;sa=showPosts

[VRobb]

Thank you, kano-san. Frankly you have the patience of Job, and I hit the ignore button on this statclown days ago...  Don't argue with stupid; first they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.  
Love the work you and -ck do for the pool in particular and the BTC community in general.  As John Boehner said many times, you can disagree without being disagreeable.  This douche le grande is quite disagreeable, and even though he knows I got him on blast (i.e. ignore) he'll still answer this post...  
Can't fix stupid! Mine on!

[philipma1957]

He trolls  this thread a lot.

I have been loyal  to kano's pool .

I am good at math .

And as I pointed out earlier  his math on the Avalon 7  was using price points that were completely  wrong..  

Frankly  the s9 is cheaper then the avalon 7  even with  the  numbers I used.


But the older s9's were sold as freq adjustable.  Which  is part of the reason I purchased the six that I did.

My use of them and locations for them are dictated by   sound and heat in part.

My gear ran  within specs given by bitmaintech and my gear  broke down at a high rate.

My repaired gear which was sold and used by a different miner also broke down at a high rate.

Finally  if it turns out that avalon 7 becomes  a .99 cdf loser  like the older s9 is  I will move it.

But .99 cdf  over 100 blocks vs .77 cdf over 5 or 6 blocks  means nothing.

So I will give the avalon a  lot more time  before I make a decision as to where to mine with it.

to prove a point  last:
20 of 20 posts are on Kano's thread
35 of 40 posts are on Kano's thread

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=861346;sa=showPosts

last 46 of 60 posts are on Kano's thread

last 61 of 80 posts are on Kano's thread


not to mention  4 or 5 on ck's thread.

[bitwitt]

Wow .. I have had a s9 for a couple of weeks now. been running it on slush. I was going to move it over to Kano but will keep it on slush after all the negativity about the s9 here.

FWI we would all have been better off just buying bitcoin instead of buying any of these OVER priced miners.


Best of luck to all. 

[kano]

Wow .. I have had a s9 for a couple of weeks now. been running it on slush. I was going to move it over to Kano but will keep it on slush after all the negativity about the s9 here.

FWI we would all have been better off just buying bitcoin instead of buying any of these OVER priced miners.


Best of luck to all. 

Well if they are S9v1 and you can't switch them to S9v2 - then yep please point them somewhere else
If they are S9v2 - point them here

[elokk]

Wow .. I have had a s9 for a couple of weeks now. been running it on slush. I was going to move it over to Kano but will keep it on slush after all the negativity about the s9 here.

FWI we would all have been better off just buying bitcoin instead of buying any of these OVER priced miners.


Best of luck to all. 

Buying btc or buying stock in the chip makers like AMD or NVDA would be a better investment financially perhaps but many people choose to mine because it is a lot more fun and supports a network we all believe in. Plus a lot of interesting people here in the mining community to learn from