KanoPool since 2014 🐈 - PPLNS and Solo 0.5% fee - Worldwide - 2436 blocks

[akadamson]

Holy Sh**t

I actually looked at my reward for last block...    

26.31THs   0.00699728

last block january i got for   26.46THs   0.01220075

okay the block in january was 15.06 BTC.
But man...nearly cutting the reward in half in 2 weeks??

Did I miss something?

The pool hash rate basically doubled - so that's the big difference.

Block 505456 we were at 32.68PHs, this last one we were at 46.80PHs.

Bigger hash rate plus smaller block, plus more big players = smaller reward.

but with the hopes for more frequent blocks.  It's the trade off.  Need a larger pool size (combined hash rate) means everyones profit per share is lower due to dilution, but with the promise or more frequent blocks.  

[1714939047]

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[1714939047]

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[rifleman74]

Holy Sh**t

I actually looked at my reward for last block...    

26.31THs   0.00699728

last block january i got for   26.46THs   0.01220075

okay the block in january was 15.06 BTC.
But man...nearly cutting the reward in half in 2 weeks??

Did I miss something?

15.06 vs 12.44 on the block size will cut the reward down substantially.   Right now blocks aren't in the "juicy" mode of fees so you have to crack more of them!

[rifleman74]

But....am I ramped up or not.....?  

The Workers->Shift Graph will currently show that clearly.
The light red area is the 5Nd, so if you were mining since the beginning of that area (or before) then you are now fully ramped up.

Again, as a reminder to all, the 5Nd 'ramp' isn't a time interval, it's an amount of hashes - specifically 5 times the network difficulty.
Since the pool hash rate changes around quite a bit, the 'time' for the 5Nd is quite varying

I'm fully ramped up according to the Workers>Shift Graph; however, on the Workers>Shifts page, there are 86 shifts between the bold red line and the 1/22 block where I'm not seeing a reward.

How/when will I get rewarded for that time period? Thanks in advance for the explanation.

When a block is found. The reward process counts back shifts until the total share difficulty included is 5Nd. So the red line is showing you were the 5Nd point is. Rewards are averaged between the redline and finding the block.

Sorry if I didn't explain well enough. The reward "gap"--all zeros--is below the bold red line (i.e. Between 1/22 and 1/25).

The gap between 1/22 and 1/25 does not fall within the 5Nd period. Thus there is no reward for those shifts. Mine looks same way.

Wow... So, for all the blocks that are over 500%, no one gets paid for the work their miners did over the 500% mark?

That's disappointing if you're right.

Yep, that's what it is.   No more blocks that go over more than one difficulty change.

[wavelengthsf]

Wow... So, for all the blocks that are over 500%, no one gets paid for the work their miners did over the 500% mark?

That's disappointing if you're right.

Sorry - that's the way it works on every PPLNS pool.

If you don't find a block during the LNS period, you don't get paid for those shares.

PPLNS = Pay Per Last N Shares - if the N in this case is higher than the shares between the last block and this one, you don't paid for it, even if you had shares.

[akadamson]

Wow... So, for all the blocks that are over 500%, no one gets paid for the work their miners did over the 500% mark?

That's disappointing if you're right.

Sorry - that's the way it works on every PPLNS pool.

If you don't find a block during the LNS period, you don't get paid for those shares.

I had to go refresh my memory as well... it's at the top of the home page.

Code:

We use PPLNS (Pay Per Last N Shares)

PPLNS means that when a block is found, the block reward is shared among the last N shares that miners sent to the pool, up to when the block was found.
The N value the pool uses is 5 times the network difficulty when the block is found - '5Nd'.

Using fuzzy math would this mean that while the block was almost 600% difficulty, we were only paid as if it were 500% (number of shares) and that other 100% was not paid shares?  [maybe a gross and missleading point, not sure]

[wavelengthsf]

Using fuzzy math would this mean that while the block was almost 600% difficulty, we were only paid as if it were 500% and that other 100% was not paid shares?  [maybe a gross and missleading point, not sure]

Yes, - in fuzzy math, when there are greater 500% blocks, you have some work you did that's not paid, as its outside of lookback range.

However, those are rare. (Understanding we have a few in the past 9 months, but statistically over a long period of time they'll be exceptionally rare.)

[BSGMiner]

Wow... So, for all the blocks that are over 500%, no one gets paid for the work their miners did over the 500% mark?

That's disappointing if you're right.

Sorry - that's the way it works on every PPLNS pool.

If you don't find a block during the LNS period, you don't get paid for those shares.

PPLNS = Pay Per Last N Shares - if the N in this case is higher than the shares between the last block and this one, you don't paid for it, even if you had shares.

NEW POOL RULE: No more >500% Blocks!

In all seriousness, though, if we hit several in a row, we would be technically paid multiple times for the same shares, right? (EDIT: whereas this payout will only be for one block.)

I guess it all evens out in the end... like everything else, I suppose.

[wavelengthsf]

NEW POOL RULE: No more >500% Blocks!

In all seriousness, though, if we hit several in a row, we would be technically paid multiple times for the same shares, right?

I guess it all evens out in the end... like everything else, I suppose.

Yep - hitting multiple in a row is great when it happens.

Over a long enough period, it will even out. The variance from block to block is high, but over a large sample, it's good. The trick is to be able to increase your hash rate strategically and use cash flow and profit to do that and float costs in bad months.

[akadamson]

NEW POOL RULE: No more >500% Blocks!

In all seriousness, though, if we hit several in a row, we would be technically paid multiple times for the same shares, right?

I guess it all evens out in the end... like everything else, I suppose.

Yep - hitting multiple in a row is great when it happens.

Over a long enough period, it will even out. The variance from block to block is high, but over a large sample, it's good. The trick is to be able to increase your hash rate strategically and use cash flow and profit to do that and float costs in bad months.

Amazing how this starts to fit together *once you get in the middle of it*...

Code:

How do the PPLNS payments work?

The 5Nd means the pool rewards 5 times the expected number of shares, each time a block is found.
So each share will be paid approximately 1/5 of it's expected value, in each block it gets a reward,
but each share is also expected, on average, to be rewarded 5 times in blocks found after the share is submitted to the pool.
i.e. if pool luck was always 100% then each share is expected to be rewarded 5 times.

If pool luck is better than 100%, then the average share reward will be better than 5 times.
If pool luck is lower than 100%, then the average share reward will be less than 5 times.

^^ from the PPLNS link on the home page

COME ON BLOCKS!!!

[BSGMiner]

NEW POOL RULE: No more >500% Blocks!

In all seriousness, though, if we hit several in a row, we would be technically paid multiple times for the same shares, right?

I guess it all evens out in the end... like everything else, I suppose.

Yep - hitting multiple in a row is great when it happens.

Over a long enough period, it will even out. The variance from block to block is high, but over a large sample, it's good. The trick is to be able to increase your hash rate strategically and use cash flow and profit to do that and float costs in bad months.

The good news here is that everyone got a chance to see exactly how much they get paid for only a single block, which lets us know how good we have it all the other times.

"The sweet is never as sweet without the sour."

MINE ON WITH KANO!

[DPoS2]

They are in denial..  they still think it is just a difference of smaller quicker payouts vs bigger slower payouts and have no clue that they are bottoming out on small datasets

So in your signature, you say to support the small mining pools (specifically this pool) but we are all idiots that are in denial? May want to update your sig.

If you go back to my earlier posts I was trying to sound the alarm that this pool is going to be extinct if it gets too small and that if this pool really is the best paying pool and the big ones are robbing people then why not do a marketing push,  lower the ramp up for a short temporary time to get people to switch, then once a crowd forms it attracts bigger crowds... etc..

but nah..  bitching and moaning and stubborn folks rule the day over here.

I'll leave my sig alone for now until I'm motivated by something else eventually

[kano]

NEW POOL RULE: No more >500% Blocks!

In all seriousness, though, if we hit several in a row, we would be technically paid multiple times for the same shares, right?

I guess it all evens out in the end... like everything else, I suppose.

Yep - hitting multiple in a row is great when it happens.

Over a long enough period, it will even out. The variance from block to block is high, but over a large sample, it's good. The trick is to be able to increase your hash rate strategically and use cash flow and profit to do that and float costs in bad months.

The good news here is that everyone got a chance to see exactly how much they get paid for only a single block, which lets us know how good we have it all the other times.

"The sweet is never as sweet without the sour."

MINE ON WITH KANO!

That's the point of the 5Nd also - so that it's uncommon to have unpaid shifts.
In this case all shifts from 5Nd to the previous block (500% to 596%) got no reward.

It's also a trade off of how long it takes to ramp up, when the pool hash rate is low (50 PH)

From the CDF table:
0.99326205300091  500.000%  1 in 148.4
i.e. we expect to average, over a large number of blocks, 1 in 148.4 blocks being over 500%

When you are ramped up, it makes no real difference, it's more like aesthetics than anything else -
ouch you see unpaid shifts - but your reward per block is still 'the same'
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg29985768#msg29985768
Luck can be both good and bad - it's random.

The one catch with it is that I can't just go and change the 5Nd
If I make it lower, that negatively affects the current miners and is to the advantage of any new miners.
If I make it higher, the opposite.

[os2sam]

why not do a marketing push

Why?  Why not just concentrate on making the best pool possible and let the chips fall where they may?

Kano seems to be an Means Justifies the Ends type person.  There aren't enough of those around these days.

[kano]

They are in denial..  they still think it is just a difference of smaller quicker payouts vs bigger slower payouts and have no clue that they are bottoming out on small datasets

So in your signature, you say to support the small mining pools (specifically this pool) but we are all idiots that are in denial? May want to update your sig.

If you go back to my earlier posts I was trying to sound the alarm that this pool is going to be extinct if it gets too small and that if this pool really is the best paying pool and the big ones are robbing people then why not do a marketing push,  lower the ramp up for a short temporary time to get people to switch, then once a crowd forms it attracts bigger crowds... etc..

but nah..  bitching and moaning and stubborn folks rule the day over here.

I'll leave my sig alone for now until I'm motivated by something else eventually

Well if you've made some random decision that "50PHs and growing", is a spiralling death pool, why aren't you warning every other pool here (except slush) that is a lot smaller than 50PH, that they are already dead?

We crashed after the October bad luck.
Looking at each month since December, we've grown.

[bustacap]

I am also new to KanoPool

I have read through a couple of pages and would like to say thank you to Kano and the community.
I have had no issues with anyone here and you have provided me with great support. Even when I am asking noob questions. I have received no hostility and only clear answers. I believe I am at the best place to be. I truly belief that the motivation and knowledge here is extremely high and that in the future I will learn a lot more than I have already (which for me is already a lot).

So yeah im here to stay and just wanted to express another view from a new noob.

Thanks again…… and Mine On!!!

[fjtropepe]

They are in denial..  they still think it is just a difference of smaller quicker payouts vs bigger slower payouts and have no clue that they are bottoming out on small datasets

So in your signature, you say to support the small mining pools (specifically this pool) but we are all idiots that are in denial? May want to update your sig.

If you go back to my earlier posts I was trying to sound the alarm that this pool is going to be extinct if it gets too small and that if this pool really is the best paying pool and the big ones are robbing people then why not do a marketing push,  lower the ramp up for a short temporary time to get people to switch, then once a crowd forms it attracts bigger crowds... etc..

but nah..  bitching and moaning and stubborn folks rule the day over here.

I'll leave my sig alone for now until I'm motivated by something else eventually

Well if you've made some random decision that "50PHs and growing", is a spiralling death pool, why aren't you warning every other pool here (except slush) that is a lot smaller than 50PH, that they are already dead?

We crashed after the October bad luck.
Looking at each month since December, we've grown.

Because individuals like him are attempting to get a rise out of others. No one else cares what he has to say so he has to keep coming here to get his fix.

[shmain]

NEW POOL RULE: No more >500% Blocks!

In all seriousness, though, if we hit several in a row, we would be technically paid multiple times for the same shares, right?

I guess it all evens out in the end... like everything else, I suppose.

Yep - hitting multiple in a row is great when it happens.

Over a long enough period, it will even out. The variance from block to block is high, but over a large sample, it's good. The trick is to be able to increase your hash rate strategically and use cash flow and profit to do that and float costs in bad months.

The good news here is that everyone got a chance to see exactly how much they get paid for only a single block, which lets us know how good we have it all the other times.

"The sweet is never as sweet without the sour."

MINE ON WITH KANO!

That's the point of the 5Nd also - so that it's uncommon to have unpaid shifts.
In this case all shifts from 5Nd to the previous block (500% to 596%) got no reward.

It's also a trade off of how long it takes to ramp up, when the pool hash rate is low (50 PH)

From the CDF table:
0.99326205300091  500.000%  1 in 148.4
i.e. we expect to average, over a large number of blocks, 1 in 148.4 blocks being over 500%

When you are ramped up, it makes no real difference, it's more like aesthetics than anything else -
ouch you see unpaid shifts - but your reward per block is still 'the same'
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg29985768#msg29985768
Luck can be both good and bad - it's random.

The one catch with it is that I can't just go and change the 5Nd
If I make it lower, that negatively affects the current miners and is to the advantage of any new miners.
If I make it higher, the opposite.

You mention that its uncommon to have unpaid shifts but looking at my shift reward, it says 0.08655 and going into my payments after the block matured, i received 10% of what was rewarded at 0.0085898. I am also not even sure if that was the shift that was paid. In my payments, that amount appeared before the block matured but payment was only sent out after the block matured however the reward information tells me that I only had about 40% my actual hashing. Someone please tell what to do. I have been thwarted.

[Shazam!!!]

They are in denial..  they still think it is just a difference of smaller quicker payouts vs bigger slower payouts and have no clue that they are bottoming out on small datasets

So in your signature, you say to support the small mining pools (specifically this pool) but we are all idiots that are in denial? May want to update your sig.

If you go back to my earlier posts I was trying to sound the alarm that this pool is going to be extinct if it gets too small and that if this pool really is the best paying pool and the big ones are robbing people then why not do a marketing push,  lower the ramp up for a short temporary time to get people to switch, then once a crowd forms it attracts bigger crowds... etc..

but nah..  bitching and moaning and stubborn folks rule the day over here.

I'll leave my sig alone for now until I'm motivated by something else eventually

Although I'm grateful that you decided to use My signature (which has been updated), I think you have missed the point. The
general idea is to get people more involved in smaller pools to help the pool grow, not the pools getting more people
involved by using promotional gimmicks. That's something the corporate pools would do, and part of the overall problem
with corporate pools. If, Kano were to shorten the "ramp" time it would be easier for "hoppers" to come in easier, and leave
just as quickly, with a payout. Some of the things new miners dislike about this pool, and other smaller non-corporate pools,
are actually helpful in the long run, and that's where it counts--years, not days.

The promoting of this pool, and other smaller non-corporate pools needs to be done by us, the members of the pools. The
guy's who are running the pools, like Kano, have their schedules very full keeping the pool running, and making sure things
are up to date-- by the minute. I'm sure that's not very stressful for a corporate pool with a "team" who get a salary from
the skimming they take. The little bit of fee's that we pay on a small pool, are hardly a huge salary to a guy who is neck
deep in work 24/7, and covering costs to run their services. So, the least WE could do is help promote for them, and get
more people to come join, and share their experience and hashing power.

The last block here was a major SOB for everyone, and had to happen during the recent price drop, of course. It has been
very discouraging, probably even for the most veteran members. But, if you look, you'll see that under these circumstances,
people here were still being helpful with each other, albeit the complaints about not finding a block sooner. These things
will happen while mining, and is the nature of the beast, BUT, having to do it alone or without support is by far worse.
It is here, in a non-corporate pool you will find answers to ease some grief, and share the burden with others in your shoes.

So, if WE want to make this next block easier, and get more hashing power from New members, WE need to stick together,
and keep the community growing. WE can do this by promoting, and educating new miners. If you build it, they will come.......

[akadamson]

You mention that its uncommon to have unpaid shifts but looking at my shift reward, it says 0.08655 and going into my payments after the block matured, i received 10% of what was rewarded at 0.0085898. I am also not even sure if that was the shift that was paid. In my payments, that amount appeared before the block matured but payment was only sent out after the block matured however the reward information tells me that I only had about 40% my actual hashing. Someone please tell what to do. I have been thwarted.

I seriously doubt you have been thwarted.

Did you read - https://kano.is/index.php?k=payout

There is a 13 day +/- ramp up on this pool (also works to your advantage when you leave as it's 13 day +/- ramp down

How many days had you been on the pool when we found that block, if it was less than 13, then you got some percentage less than 100% because you hadn't completely the ramp up

[jeecom]

...
15.06 vs 12.44 on the block size will cut the reward down substantially.   Right now blocks aren't in the "juicy" mode of fees so you have to crack more of them!

What causes the "juicy" mode of fees?  How can we get back to that?