FastCash4Bitcoins Support Thread

[J.Socal]

can your check be cashed @ a reg. check cashing spot?

[xioustic]

The minimum on PayPal transactions has always been $100 however an error in the code validating orders allowed sub $100 transactions.  We notice that your order was under the minimum but since it was our fault honored the sales request anyways.  We will consider a lower the minimum transaction amount.  On edit: we have lowered the minimum for PayPal and Dwolla to $50.00.

Someone on reddit is asking the following (they're stuck as a Newbie on this forum so they can't post themselves):

I am interested what purpose the minimum payment serves. I'm willing to pay X% fee in exchange for getting a small BTC->Paypal transaction cleared in a timely fashion. I don't understand what risk or cost they are carrying that would encourage a flat minimum. But I do fear services with minimum transactions like that, since it increases how much is in the hopper if the provider decides to cut and run. :/

I answered:

Here's my guesses: FC4B foots the PayPal fee on their end (unlike SpendBitcoins who pass it on to you), so to mitigate that they require a minimum.

The PayPal fees, for record, are 2.9% + .30. But seriously, .30 cents isn't really a huge reason to require $50. Maybe $20, but not $50 or $100...

Maybe it's to lower the amount of manually transactions they have to do to amounts that are not trivial so they are not wasting their time?

[TangibleCryptography]

xioustic that is correct.  We use a cold wallet and manually verify sales.  The processing/verification combined with Paypal fees makes smaller tx unprofitable.    While we understand the fear of a buyer "cutting and running"  we purchased over 8,000 BTC in the first three days of the website going live.   That would have been the easiest and most profitable time to "cut and run".  If someone is still suspicious of our intent, only time will calm that fear.  I would point out our average tx size is ~ 87 BTC.  A $100 min really has no significance on the amount we could steal.  We have lowered the minimum to $50 on PayPal & Dwolla.  As demand already outstrips our supply I don't anticipate the minimum being lowered further but we will react to market conditions.

[TangibleCryptography]

can your check be cashed @ a reg. check cashing spot?

It is a normal printed business check.  No seller has reported any issue with cashing although I don't know where they are cashing/depositing them.  Our checks can be cashed at any Bank Of America branch without fee (even if you don't have a Bank of America account).  If you are overly concerned we offer a cashier's check as one of our payout options.  A cashier's check is "paid" at the time it is printed.  The check is from Bank Of America's not us, and draws from their account. Cashier's checks are (barring a bank failure) as good as cash.

[xioustic]

xioustic that is correct.  We use a cold wallet and manually verify sales that combined with Paypal fees makes smaller tx unprofitable.  As far as the fear we are going to cut & run we purchased over 8,000 BTC in the first three days.  That would have been the easiest point to "cut and run".  If someone is still suspicious only time will prove otherwise.  I would point out our avg tx size is 87 BTC.  A $100 min really has no significance on the amount we could steal if that was our intent.  We have lowered the minimum to $50 on PayPal & Dwolla.  As demand already outstrips our supply I don't anticipate the minimum being lowered further.

This is all fair and justified IMO, thank you very much for your service!

[J.Socal]

ok tommorrow, I'll call the local B of A  and check cashing spot,to ask them.

[TangibleCryptography]

Update:
Dwolla funding reloaded.
Primary account (ACH, checks, etc) funding increased.

[TangibleCryptography]

Dwolla funding exhausted.  That didn't take long. 

Reloading in progress.  ETA 07/03 by 5PM EST.

[TangibleCryptography]

Update:

A very busy Monday.  I am not sure if it was the rising bitcoin prices or just a sudden burst of popularity, but congrats sellers; you did it.  All funding sources exhausted.  You literally ran us out of money!  All funded orders will be settled today, if you placed an order don't worry your order will settle and close.

We are temporarily closed to new sales until a we can refund our accounts.

[mb300sd]

Please email the order number or have some way of retrieving it. I placed an order, waited half an hour and refreshed the page to see if my bitcoins confirmed, and lost the number.

[TangibleCryptography]

Please email the order number or have some way of retrieving it. I placed an order, waited half an hour and refreshed the page to see if my bitcoins confirmed, and lost the number.

Send us a PM.

[J.Socal]

Ok walmart doesn't cash them,check cashing spot doesn't cash them.BOA will cash them,but need a credit or debit card from another bank.I d0n't got that.

[nimda]

How are you dealing with PayPal? Surely something bad is bound to happen...

[xioustic]

How are you dealing with PayPal? Surely something bad is bound to happen...

Taken from his reddit post today:

Our relationship with PayPal is different than a normal consumer account. PayPal requires we use certified (irreversible) funds and payments we issue are nearly irreversible (there are limited exceptions for fraud that results from failure on PayPal part). Disappointingly PayPal provides no mechanism to allow end receivers to see how payments were funded or sent so you should never rely on anyone's claim (including ours) that a payment can't be reserved.

[TangibleCryptography]

Ok walmart doesn't cash them,check cashing spot doesn't cash them.BOA will cash them,but need a credit or debit card from another bank.I d0n't got that.

I will contact our bank manager for clarification because that doesn't sound like their check cashing policy.  Maybe the customer support rep was confused or mistaken.   As far as third party check cashing services.  It isn't possible for us to know where and under what conditions a check would be accepted.  For those concerned about the cashing of a check we do offer Cashier's check as an option.  No customer has yet reported than one of our checks has been declined or rejected for cashing. 

[TangibleCryptography]

How are you dealing with PayPal? Surely something bad is bound to happen...

Taken from his reddit post today:

Our relationship with PayPal is different than a normal consumer account. PayPal requires we use certified (irreversible) funds and payments we issue are nearly irreversible (there are limited exceptions for fraud that results from failure on PayPal part). Disappointingly PayPal provides no mechanism to allow end receivers to see how payments were funded or sent so you should never rely on anyone's claim (including ours) that a payment can't be reserved.

I think the next sentence should be included:
"I only bring that up to illustrate the absolute need for manual processing."

It wasn't my intend to sell the irreversibly of our payments.  I simply know from first hand experience than even in the case of an obviously accidental double payment (bit for bit exactly the same API call, yeah PayPal has never heard of a nonce), PayPal would not reverse the payment noting that the terms of our merchant agreement only allow reversals in the event that PayPal issues a payment due to a mistake on their part or compromise of their system.  As PayPal makes their payment system intentionally opaque PayPal users should treat all payments the same as there is no reliable method (likely intentional on PayPal part) to prove type of payment which was issued and under what terms.

[TangibleCryptography]

How are you dealing with PayPal? Surely something bad is bound to happen...

While we are confident our arrangement protects both us and our clients PayPal has been known to be dysfunctional (different departments giving conflicting information) and arbitrary in the past.  We intentionally limit the amount of capital exposed to PayPal and provide alternate payout methods.  In the unlikely event that a sales payment is frozen by PayPal we have already been given assurances in writing that it will always be possible for the payee to refund the payment and we will pay them by alternate means. 

Once again these precautions will likely not be needed but we are prepared to handle any adverse event by PayPal.  Unfortunately this manifests itself as low available balance in PayPal payout options as we attempt to anticipate demand and use some "just in time funding".

[TangibleCryptography]

Update:
Dwolla reloaded.
PayPal reloaded.  
Primary account funding (checks, ACH, etc) reloaded.

For those with ACH payments in transit remember 4th of July is a US Bank holiday so 3-5 business days excludes 07/04.  Got to love the traditional banking system.  Even those there is no human interaction required on any day except the first (day 0) and last somehow the employees being off makes the clock stop.   Imagine if the blockchain worked that way.   When the miner is sleeping, the rig can only hash empty blocks.

For those with inbound checks the 4th is also a US Mail Holiday.

[TangibleCryptography]

Some site enhancements planned:

A detailed transaction log for each sale will be added which should provide more clarity on the process.

Example:

Code:

2012-07-03 13:38 UTC	Sales order #99999 created
2012-07-03 13:32 UTC	Transaction detected (0-confirm).  Status: FUNDED
2012-07-03 14:18 UTC	Sixth confirmation detected (6-confirm).  Status: CONFIRMED
2012-07-03 18:15 UTC	Sales proceeds paid.  Check #1111 ($1,283.82) Shipped 07/03.  Status: PAID

Also coming is an expiration timer so you can better manage your funding. QR code of deposit address will be provided to allow easier funding by mobile wallets.

A slightly less fun enhancement is some basic denial of service protection.  A single IP address requested 2,700 sales orders in the span of roughly 18 seconds.    We put in place some limiters to control the rate of sales order generation and block IP addresses which request an excessive amount.  Captcha was considered but honestly there are few things I hate more than captchas so it will be considered only as a last resort.  I really hope it doesn't come to that.

[TangibleCryptography]

I need some feedback. I had intended each sales order to be independent of any outside access.  No email (expect in unresolvable problems) and no accounts.  Maximum security.  There is no user side data to hack, spoof, or impersonate.  No social engineering possible and even if an order is compromised the attacker only has read access to the data.    That may not be realistic.  Roughly 2% of sales required their order number either due to seller never being provided it (connectivity issues) or it being lost or written down incorrectly.

What do you think.  Is having no notifications and no method to lookup order ID a bad idea?
(edited for clarification)

I see 5 possible resolutions:
Option A)
Change nothing.  Sellers should be more responsible.  Major problem with this is http isn't a guaranteed service.  Loss of connectivity could result in seller never getting order #.  I would point out there is never any risk to funds.  If user never saw order # then they couldn't have seen the deposit address and the order will just expire unfunded.

Option B)
Assign order # before sales form is submitted.  Will require changing the code somewhat and seems clunky but it would work.  User inability to record order # is still an issue but it rules out the connectivity issues in A.  

Option C)
Email user their order # and a link to status page on order creation.  Less respect for privacy but the email message would be spartan and non descriptive.  "Order # 99999 has been created.  View status here:"

Option D)
Provide  lookup form for Order #.  The issue is in making it deterministic.  If users is validated by the lookup form, order id would be sent to user.

Option E)
Your idea.

On a similar topic:
What do you think about Order # in general? They are obviously sequential which makes brute forcing them easier.  I never consider usernames to be a secure piece of information but a sequence does make attacking weak passwords significantly easier.  Would it be better to have a Order ID which is not sequential and instead is a hash* of the order details (i.e. Order ID: KJYXLQ).  Of course this added security only compounds the issue of user's forgetting their order #s.

* Well a modified hash to guarantee uniqueness.