ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It

[Lohoris]

+1 Sold your shares and go away .

This is right.

No body really care a report or not,if they can produce one report it is great, if they can't so what is the problem? Remember lot of scandal indicate accounting report can't full of  no sense.if someone is liar,than he can managing a lieying report.

This is very wrong.

Reports are very useful, and if they are forged there is still a chance you can notice that.
Of course there is also the risk of paranoids misreading the reports and crying outrage when they instead were genuine.

Likely they keep at least some spreadsheet, so it would only be matter of cleaning it a little and showing it.
If they don't, it's because they have something to hide, and this is bad.
If they don't have any accounting at all, run for your lives.

That sait, whining here won't help so I agree with the "sell and STFU" sentiment.

[1714011194]

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[EskimoBob]

For some idiotic reason some of you think that I am trying to hurt you so you get all defensive. Why? Because I ask for a simple financial report? Seriously guys... perpetual amateur hour?

Funny thing is, I am not asking those guys to stand on their fkn ears. How do they run a Co id they have no idea wtf is going on with the finances? Lot's of cool ideas/Co's have blown and gone under ONLY because they did not bother counting the coin. Positive bank balance is not necessarily a profit! Happens every day in the real world.
 
You know what, fuck it. Lets have another 400 pages of brain farts and absurd speculations. It's your coin riding on this too. At least most of you are happy Ignorance is a bliss, after all.

[velacreations]

For some idiotic reason some of you think that I am trying to hurt you so you get all defensive. Why? Because I ask for a simple financial report? Seriously guys... perpetual amateur hour?

No one thinks you are trying to hurt them, we're just tired of reading the same post over and over.

How many times do we have to read your asking for financial reports?

[SOSLOVE868]

+1 Sold your shares and go away .

This is right.

No body really care a report or not,if they can produce one report it is great, if they can't so what is the problem? Remember lot of scandal indicate accounting report can't full of  no sense.if someone is liar,than he can managing a lieying report.

This is very wrong.

Reports are very useful, and if they are forged there is still a chance you can notice that.
Of course there is also the risk of paranoids misreading the reports and crying outrage when they instead were genuine.

Likely they keep at least some spreadsheet, so it would only be matter of cleaning it a little and showing it.
If they don't, it's because they have something to hide, and this is bad.
If they don't have any accounting at all, run for your lives.

That sait, whining here won't help so I agree with the "sell and STFU" sentiment.

I think the mining revenue is 100% transparent already...It was only thing depend on you think that Friedcat is a credited cat or next  Enron..
From past history that indicated absolutely not needs for a report to securing credit stand of Friedcat, He is doing 100% absolutely over delivery our expectations. If there are still some guys says we need a report, I would say most of other BTC related companies does not produce report either, I mean limited transparency may benefit to protecting their core business' competitiveness.  Like if Friedcat say that they produce their hardware at 100 RMB...would you think people will pay 25 BTC for it, since it decrease its revenue.
I do prefer Friedcat stay as usual, for most shareholders will care about more in weekly dividend, and share price is adjusted with predictable by refer to past performance and its current hash rate.
One more thing , to hiring a accountant dealing with weekly report also a complex job....normally real world companies taken a month to write their yearly report to helping them exploit it by sent-out positive information.

[Jutarul]

For some idiotic reason some of you think that I am trying to hurt you so you get all defensive. Why? Because I ask for a simple financial report? Seriously guys... perpetual amateur hour?

No one thinks you are trying to hurt them, we're just tired of reading the same post over and over.

How many times do we have to read your asking for financial reports?

If I am correct it's part of the questionnaire:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1M7wigyDWjKjabHKdC7msaEfXvYaNxtMbbmTIRss8EqU/viewform?pli=1

Just make sure it gets to the top of the list.

[ThickAsThieves]

For some idiotic reason some of you think that I am trying to hurt you so you get all defensive. Why? Because I ask for a simple financial report? Seriously guys... perpetual amateur hour?

No one thinks you are trying to hurt them, we're just tired of reading the same post over and over.

How many times do we have to read your asking for financial reports?

If I am correct it's part of the questionnaire:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1M7wigyDWjKjabHKdC7msaEfXvYaNxtMbbmTIRss8EqU/viewform?pli=1

Just make sure it gets to the top of the list.

The question about a financial report was included recently, but Friedcat has not responded for a week or so.

[SOSLOVE868]

For some idiotic reason some of you think that I am trying to hurt you so you get all defensive. Why? Because I ask for a simple financial report? Seriously guys... perpetual amateur hour?

No one thinks you are trying to hurt them, we're just tired of reading the same post over and over.

How many times do we have to read your asking for financial reports?

If I am correct it's part of the questionnaire:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1M7wigyDWjKjabHKdC7msaEfXvYaNxtMbbmTIRss8EqU/viewform?pli=1

Just make sure it gets to the top of the list.

The question about a financial report was included recently, but Friedcat has not responded for a week or so.

He just reply my PM today....confirming to the shares transfer.

[SmiGueL]

Because this thread really needs a nice pic :

The kids arrived today:



Thanks BTCGuild and ASICMINER!

[Lohoris]

I think the mining revenue is 100% transparent already...

Uh?
Of course it isn't.
A proper report would include how much he spends on hardware, on paying employees, on electricity...

[Vycid]

I think the mining revenue is 100% transparent already...

Uh?
Of course it isn't.
A proper report would include how much he spends on hardware, on paying employees, on electricity...

The electricity bit is quite important, in fact. I've been speculating $0.06/kWh, because he's in Guangdong province... but that could be incorrect if he is elsewhere, or has a bulk rate, or if the rates I found posted were inaccurate.

It will be a large determining factor in whether AM will stay competitive as new farms open up in places with very cheap electricity (~$0.01/kWh).

As for hardware, I believe I've seen $10k/TH, though that is yet again not an official figure. I doubt the expense for employees beyond manufacturing is significant compared to mining revenue.

[ex-trader]

I think the point about finance is well-made and of repeated concern. AM is clearly doing amazingly well on building chips, mining and selling, but it just feels like there's too much of this $200m company that is about the tech-stuff and too little about proper corporate governance and reporting.

The simple fact is that no proper reports have ever been produced as I can see it. Now maybe some things should remain 'inside the firm', for business reasons, but most public or private firms at least produce decent management information on a monthly basis and usually share it with shareholders on a quarterly basis.

I own a small piece in a global company that is still private and get a quarterly report of one page that covers updates and outline finances. My own private (multi-offshore structured) company reports proper management accounts (P&L, BS, Cashflow) monthly. It's easy.

Add-in the fact that transfers are still being emailed to the founder even for a few shares, shows that perhaps some areas could be improved by delegating to properly skilled workers and clearly the company can afford it. At some point it needs to report sales taxes and profits to the tax authorities as well as taxes due on employees wages etc??? Is it even doing so??

I'm sure there are plenty of people who could help who are shareholders (I offered but never received a reply).

Maybe they're already doing it, but they need to start acting like a proper business and solve the issues of reporting, taxation, corporate structure and governance, off-shore location. If they don't do this then they are risking the business needlessly.

Maybe I'm wrong and all this is happening, but with the greatest of respect to them right now it just doesn't feel like it, these are all problems that can be solved within days by people with experience.

[SOSLOVE868]

I think the mining revenue is 100% transparent already...

Uh?
Of course it isn't.
A proper report would include how much he spends on hardware, on paying employees, on electricity...

I am pretty sure this Friedcat has numerous profit margin ,he can cover all his expenses by his on shares income from other 24K of shares.
He intended to be over satisfy those other shareholders, and One more thing ,if you full of doubt about his ability, then just go and dump your shares.

[SOSLOVE868]

I think the point about finance is well-made and of repeated concern. AM is clearly doing amazingly well on building chips, mining and selling, but it just feels like there's too much of this $200m company that is about the tech-stuff and too little about proper corporate governance and reporting.

The simple fact is that no proper reports have ever been produced as I can see it. Now maybe some things should remain 'inside the firm', for business reasons, but most public or private firms at least produce decent management information on a monthly basis and usually share it with shareholders on a quarterly basis.

I own a small piece in a global company that is still private and get a quarterly report of one page that covers updates and outline finances. My own private (multi-offshore structured) company reports proper management accounts (P&L, BS, Cashflow) monthly. It's easy.

Add-in the fact that transfers are still being emailed to the founder even for a few shares, shows that perhaps some areas could be improved by delegating to properly skilled workers and clearly the company can afford it. At some point it needs to report sales taxes and profits to the tax authorities as well as taxes due on employees wages etc??? Is it even doing so??

I'm sure there are plenty of people who could help who are shareholders (I offered but never received a reply).

Maybe they're already doing it, but they need to start acting like a proper business and solve the issues of reporting, taxation, corporate structure and governance, off-shore location. If they don't do this then they are risking the business needlessly.

Maybe I'm wrong and all this is happening, but with the greatest of respect to them right now it just doesn't feel like it, these are all problems that can be solved within days by people with experience.

There are no tax requirement for income from virtual currency in China....Your opinion is a step forward.
And AM has a market cap of 200 millions, so what ? they may not a real business that registered with Chinese government , because no regulation indicate they need to do so~~This game is very simple , if you request everything become officially and everything is endorsement by government authority.It looks something will only happening when BTC really hit mainstream...I highly doubt all those rules which comply by normal businesses in real world, can be complied as same as a virtual business in BTC. If everything become officially and backed by government endorsement, then you will never see a return of 30% per year. it will becoming the same as most companies in stock market, may be 3% per year??
For the risk and reward, you should be aware before join this game...everything is virtual even the companies itself... if you worry too much , you can go back to NYE or where ever you like..

[SilentSonicBoom]

I think the mining revenue is 100% transparent already...

Uh?
Of course it isn't.
A proper report would include how much he spends on hardware, on paying employees, on electricity...

I am pretty sure this Friedcat has numerous profit margin ,he can cover all his expenses by his on shares income from other 24K of shares.
He intended to be over satisfy those other shareholders, and One more thing ,if you full of doubt about his ability, then just go and dump your shares.

Agreed. The main issue is trust and friedcat/AsicMiner has delivered above and beyond my expectations. Hardware is delivered in a timely fashion, hashrate is adjusted to match network increase, and dividends on shares are paid weekly like clockwork. Financials are nice, but results are even better

[JimiQ84]

I think the point about finance is well-made and of repeated concern. AM is clearly doing amazingly well on building chips, mining and selling, but it just feels like there's too much of this $200m company that is about the tech-stuff and too little about proper corporate governance and reporting.

The simple fact is that no proper reports have ever been produced as I can see it. Now maybe some things should remain 'inside the firm', for business reasons, but most public or private firms at least produce decent management information on a monthly basis and usually share it with shareholders on a quarterly basis.

I own a small piece in a global company that is still private and get a quarterly report of one page that covers updates and outline finances. My own private (multi-offshore structured) company reports proper management accounts (P&L, BS, Cashflow) monthly. It's easy.

Add-in the fact that transfers are still being emailed to the founder even for a few shares, shows that perhaps some areas could be improved by delegating to properly skilled workers and clearly the company can afford it. At some point it needs to report sales taxes and profits to the tax authorities as well as taxes due on employees wages etc??? Is it even doing so??

I'm sure there are plenty of people who could help who are shareholders (I offered but never received a reply).

Maybe they're already doing it, but they need to start acting like a proper business and solve the issues of reporting, taxation, corporate structure and governance, off-shore location. If they don't do this then they are risking the business needlessly.

Maybe I'm wrong and all this is happening, but with the greatest of respect to them right now it just doesn't feel like it, these are all problems that can be solved within days by people with experience.

There are no tax requirement for income from virtual currency in China....Your opinion is a step forward.
And AM has a market cap of 200 millions, so what ? they may not a real business that registered with Chinese government , because no regulation indicate they need to do so~~This game is very simple , if you request everything become officially and everything is endorsement by government authority.It looks something will only happening when BTC really hit mainstream...I highly doubt all those rules which comply by normal businesses in real world, can be complied as same as a virtual business in BTC. If everything become officially and backed by government endorsement, then you will never see a return of 30% per year. it will becoming the same as most companies in stock market, may be 3% per year??
For the risk and reward, you should be aware before join this game...everything is virtual even the companies itself... if you worry too much , you can go back to NYE or where ever you like..

Exactly. I want juicy dividends, not some useless "reports". Dividends are my reports and they are pretty good. As long as dividends pay, friedcat can sit with his thumb up his nose for all I care.

[SOSLOVE868]

I think the point about finance is well-made and of repeated concern. AM is clearly doing amazingly well on building chips, mining and selling, but it just feels like there's too much of this $200m company that is about the tech-stuff and too little about proper corporate governance and reporting.

The simple fact is that no proper reports have ever been produced as I can see it. Now maybe some things should remain 'inside the firm', for business reasons, but most public or private firms at least produce decent management information on a monthly basis and usually share it with shareholders on a quarterly basis.

I own a small piece in a global company that is still private and get a quarterly report of one page that covers updates and outline finances. My own private (multi-offshore structured) company reports proper management accounts (P&L, BS, Cashflow) monthly. It's easy.

Add-in the fact that transfers are still being emailed to the founder even for a few shares, shows that perhaps some areas could be improved by delegating to properly skilled workers and clearly the company can afford it. At some point it needs to report sales taxes and profits to the tax authorities as well as taxes due on employees wages etc??? Is it even doing so??

I'm sure there are plenty of people who could help who are shareholders (I offered but never received a reply).

Maybe they're already doing it, but they need to start acting like a proper business and solve the issues of reporting, taxation, corporate structure and governance, off-shore location. If they don't do this then they are risking the business needlessly.

Maybe I'm wrong and all this is happening, but with the greatest of respect to them right now it just doesn't feel like it, these are all problems that can be solved within days by people with experience.

As no matter how high is the share price ,that isn't concerning by FriedCat ,because his companies only received the fund from IPO which is around 16400BTC.
(I do not believe he can manage a debt loan with his shares)
The rest of things ,is he trying to keeps his promises to the community by over delivery our expectations by make things as simple as possible.
Other aspect is: share price could be dump as long as 1 BTC in one day or vice versa. Market cap means less important in this game ,only thing is as long as it maintaining its 30% annual return. (and this 30% could be contribute by less money pay for accountant service.)

[ex-trader]

So everyones thoughts are simply, lets just assume that no-one finds out that AM is a real company and taxes them. Good luck to the Chinese employees when the authorities do find out! (Afterall China is such an easy place on people who break laws?)

The simple fact is that AM is a business (which by law must be registered) and it is making and selling stuff (millions of USD equivalent per month). It happens to sell this stuff denominated in something other than Renminbi, but which has a clearly calculable value in Renminbi. This is no different to mining gold or oil which is denominated in USD.

The ignorance on here is staggering. I agree it's not a problem for investors, who just care about dividends, but it will matter if the staff get jailed or the company closed because it chose to ignore local laws.

You cannot simply make something, sell it and ignore the law without consequences at some point. This same point applies to almost all Bitcoin securities. Most of these securities pass-through entire income per share, without deducting income tax on the profits (if it is a share income can only be paid from post-tax) or by withholding tax (if it is debt payments made outside the country of domicile). Of course all this may be occuring in zero-tax environments, but I highly doubt it.

They've only been around a few months, so will probably be able to get this sorted if they do it NOW, but if they don't if I was them I'd be very very scared right now about a knock on the door from the authorities.

[Lohoris]

So everyones thoughts are simply, lets just assume that no-one finds out that AM is a real company and taxes them.

This is a totally idiotic thing SOSLOVE suggested, but he's misinformed: friedcat has at least stated that they are mostly compliant with the laws, and where they aren't it's just because it's a grey area and couldn't do otherwise. Of course we have no way of knowing if he was sincere or he lied, as with everything regarding AM.

That said, many investors are plain stupid: not reading a report is one thing, but being "ok" with having no reports at all is foolish to say the least.

[SOSLOVE868]

So everyones thoughts are simply, lets just assume that no-one finds out that AM is a real company and taxes them.

This is a totally idiotic thing SOSLOVE suggested, but he's misinformed: friedcat has at least stated that they are mostly compliant with the laws, and where they aren't it's just because it's a grey area and couldn't do otherwise. Of course we have no way of knowing if he was sincere or he lied, as with everything regarding AM.

That said, many investors are plain stupid: not reading a report is one thing, but being "ok" with having no reports at all is foolish to say the least.

Dividends is our report....If dividend gone ,I do not need a detailed somewhat report to explaining what the reason causing dividend gone ...
Please be more realistic and concerning to what game you are playing ...please ...Your suggestion is only comply with real stock market.
And as I stated that Share price only correlated with dividend, A report will not securing the share price...what we need is under extremely situations FriedCat can show up within time and tells us what happening ,this really enough...

 

[SOSLOVE868]

So everyones thoughts are simply, lets just assume that no-one finds out that AM is a real company and taxes them. Good luck to the Chinese employees when the authorities do find out! (Afterall China is such an easy place on people who break laws?)

The simple fact is that AM is a business (which by law must be registered) and it is making and selling stuff (millions of USD equivalent per month). It happens to sell this stuff denominated in something other than Renminbi, but which has a clearly calculable value in Renminbi. This is no different to mining gold or oil which is denominated in USD.

The ignorance on here is staggering. I agree it's not a problem for investors, who just care about dividends, but it will matter if the staff get jailed or the company closed because it chose to ignore local laws.

You cannot simply make something, sell it and ignore the law without consequences at some point. This same point applies to almost all Bitcoin securities. Most of these securities pass-through entire income per share, without deducting income tax on the profits (if it is a share income can only be paid from post-tax) or by withholding tax (if it is debt payments made outside the country of domicile). Of course all this may be occuring in zero-tax environments, but I highly doubt it.

They've only been around a few months, so will probably be able to get this sorted if they do it NOW, but if they don't if I was them I'd be very very scared right now about a knock on the door from the authorities.

Western thoughts isn't the same in China. For Friedcat he selling his devices by receiving BTC.. First of all ,Chinese government isn't recognized BTC as a money..Thus logically, they are trading stuffs with stuffs, no law in China indicated people trading stuff with stuff need to registered with the government.
Just like you and me , we are friend, you gives me a computer ,as I appreciate what you did ,I give you back a BTC...Do we need to registered our gift transaction to the government Are you insane