ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It

[SOSLOVE868]

So everyones thoughts are simply, lets just assume that no-one finds out that AM is a real company and taxes them.

This is a totally idiotic thing SOSLOVE suggested, but he's misinformed: friedcat has at least stated that they are mostly compliant with the laws, and where they aren't it's just because it's a grey area and couldn't do otherwise. Of course we have no way of knowing if he was sincere or he lied, as with everything regarding AM.

That said, many investors are plain stupid: not reading a report is one thing, but being "ok" with having no reports at all is foolish to say the least.

Again ,When people stay nothing to defense his argument, then they were usually says someone is stupid to approve that they are smart.

[1715412692]

1715412692

[baloo_kiev]

Western thoughts isn't the same in China. For Friedcat he selling his devices by receiving BTC.. First of all ,Chinese government isn't recognized BTC as a money..Thus logically, they are trading stuffs with stuffs, no law in China indicated people trading stuff with stuff need to registered with the government.
Just like you and me , we are friend, you gives me a computer ,as I appreciate what you did ,I give you back a BTC...Do we need to registered our gift transaction to the government Are you insane

It's all about volume. In most countries you cannot legally "receive a gift" of "trade stuffs with stuffs" worth millions USD without paying tax or at least registering your deal properly.

[SOSLOVE868]

Western thoughts isn't the same in China. For Friedcat he selling his devices by receiving BTC.. First of all ,Chinese government isn't recognized BTC as a money..Thus logically, they are trading stuffs with stuffs, no law in China indicated people trading stuff with stuff need to registered with the government.
Just like you and me , we are friend, you gives me a computer ,as I appreciate what you did ,I give you back a BTC...Do we need to registered our gift transaction to the government Are you insane

It's all about volume. In most countries you cannot legally "receive a gift" of "trade stuffs with stuffs" worth millions USD without paying tax or at least registering your deal properly.

Of course , In China is absolutely no tax duty on receiving Gift...I can buy a diamond rings no matter how much it worth and gives to my girlfriend as my girlfriend appreciate to me gives me back no matter what the size of BTC...
Volume of the transaction isn't change the basic principle of BTC that isn't recognized as money by the government! Which countries you lived that request people to pay duty when they exchange their gift??? I am highly doubt this government can be existed without riot within those angry people.

If Chinese Government stated that they recognized BTC as a money , I think this great....super good news for us...we will see BTC soon hit 10000USD.

[bitfair]

Western thoughts isn't the same in China. For Friedcat he selling his devices by receiving BTC.. First of all ,Chinese government isn't recognized BTC as a money..Thus logically, they are trading stuffs with stuffs, no law in China indicated people trading stuff with stuff need to registered with the government.
Just like you and me , we are friend, you gives me a computer ,as I appreciate what you did ,I give you back a BTC...Do we need to registered our gift transaction to the government Are you insane

It's all about volume. In most countries you cannot legally "receive a gift" of "trade stuffs with stuffs" worth millions USD without paying tax or at least registering your deal properly.

Of course , In China is absolutely no tax duty on receiving Gift...I can buy a diamond rings no matter how much it worth and gives to my girlfriend as my girlfriend appreciate to me gives me back no matter what the size of BTC...
Volume of the transaction isn't change the basic principle of BTC that isn't recognized as money by the government! Which countries you lived that request people to pay duty when they exchange their gift??? I am highly doubt this government can be existed without riot within those angry people.

If Chinese Government stated that they recognized BTC as a money , I think this great....super good news for us...we will see BTC soon hit 10000USD.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this, SOSLOVE868. In all countries I am familiar with, gifts are liable for tax. Barter is also liable for tax. Therefore, there is no doubt that AM profit would be taxable in many jurisdictions.

I'm not familiar with Chinese tax code, but you don't seem to be familiar with tax code in any country, SOSLOVE868.

[baloo_kiev]

Western thoughts isn't the same in China. For Friedcat he selling his devices by receiving BTC.. First of all ,Chinese government isn't recognized BTC as a money..Thus logically, they are trading stuffs with stuffs, no law in China indicated people trading stuff with stuff need to registered with the government.
Just like you and me , we are friend, you gives me a computer ,as I appreciate what you did ,I give you back a BTC...Do we need to registered our gift transaction to the government Are you insane

It's all about volume. In most countries you cannot legally "receive a gift" of "trade stuffs with stuffs" worth millions USD without paying tax or at least registering your deal properly.

Of course , In China is absolutely no tax duty on receiving Gift...I can buy a diamond rings no matter how much it worth and gives to my girlfriend as my girlfriend appreciate to me gives me back no matter what the size of BTC...
Volume of the transaction isn't change the basic principle of BTC that isn't recognized as money by the government! Which countries you lived that request people to pay duty when they exchange their gift??? I am highly doubt this government can be existed without riot within those angry people.

If Chinese Government stated that they recognized BTC as a money , I think this great....super good news for us...we will see BTC soon hit 10000USD.

Don't you see the difference between giving a diamond ring personally and sending thousands of devices all over the world? First, it's too noticeable for tax office and customs. And second, you can't just say that you have such many friends and send them gifts all the time.

[hammurabi]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this, SOSLOVE868. In all countries I am familiar with, gifts are liable for tax. Barter is also liable for tax. Therefore, there is no doubt that AM profit would be taxable in many jurisdictions.
I'm not familiar with Chinese tax code, but you don't seem to be familiar with tax code in any country, SOSLOVE868.

Gift taxation is difficult problem. Especially for treasury investigators.
In Poland If you are in close relation to recipient, tax duty is lifted (to some extent). Otherwise the recipient have to calculate and pay the tax.
This construct allows you to sell couple of things, but after reaching high volume you will have difficulty explaining so many close friends..

Of course that is not a problem for a genius friedcat since there is already plenty of written evidence that almost everybody loves him.
There is even a photograph taken of grandma in love holding the blades

[Vycid]

So everyones thoughts are simply, lets just assume that no-one finds out that AM is a real company and taxes them. Good luck to the Chinese employees when the authorities do find out! (Afterall China is such an easy place on people who break laws?)

The simple fact is that AM is a business (which by law must be registered) and it is making and selling stuff (millions of USD equivalent per month). It happens to sell this stuff denominated in something other than Renminbi, but which has a clearly calculable value in Renminbi. This is no different to mining gold or oil which is denominated in USD.

The ignorance on here is staggering. I agree it's not a problem for investors, who just care about dividends, but it will matter if the staff get jailed or the company closed because it chose to ignore local laws.

You cannot simply make something, sell it and ignore the law without consequences at some point. This same point applies to almost all Bitcoin securities. Most of these securities pass-through entire income per share, without deducting income tax on the profits (if it is a share income can only be paid from post-tax) or by withholding tax (if it is debt payments made outside the country of domicile). Of course all this may be occuring in zero-tax environments, but I highly doubt it.

They've only been around a few months, so will probably be able to get this sorted if they do it NOW, but if they don't if I was them I'd be very very scared right now about a knock on the door from the authorities.

Western thoughts isn't the same in China. For Friedcat he selling his devices by receiving BTC.. First of all ,Chinese government isn't recognized BTC as a money..Thus logically, they are trading stuffs with stuffs, no law in China indicated people trading stuff with stuff need to registered with the government.
Just like you and me , we are friend, you gives me a computer ,as I appreciate what you did ,I give you back a BTC...Do we need to registered our gift transaction to the government Are you insane

Does he pay for his rent and electricity in bitcoins too, you think?

Such great thinkers around here.

(And yes, you DO need to report gifts larger than a certain size or exceeding a quota.)

[SOSLOVE868]

Western thoughts isn't the same in China. For Friedcat he selling his devices by receiving BTC.. First of all ,Chinese government isn't recognized BTC as a money..Thus logically, they are trading stuffs with stuffs, no law in China indicated people trading stuff with stuff need to registered with the government.
Just like you and me , we are friend, you gives me a computer ,as I appreciate what you did ,I give you back a BTC...Do we need to registered our gift transaction to the government Are you insane

It's all about volume. In most countries you cannot legally "receive a gift" of "trade stuffs with stuffs" worth millions USD without paying tax or at least registering your deal properly.

Of course , In China is absolutely no tax duty on receiving Gift...I can buy a diamond rings no matter how much it worth and gives to my girlfriend as my girlfriend appreciate to me gives me back no matter what the size of BTC...
Volume of the transaction isn't change the basic principle of BTC that isn't recognized as money by the government! Which countries you lived that request people to pay duty when they exchange their gift??? I am highly doubt this government can be existed without riot within those angry people.

If Chinese Government stated that they recognized BTC as a money , I think this great....super good news for us...we will see BTC soon hit 10000USD.

Don't you see the difference between giving a diamond ring personally and sending thousands of devices all over the world? First, it's too noticeable for tax office and customs. And second, you can't just say that you have such many friends and send them gifts all the time.

Hey, what the differences ? of course there are no differences.... logically only when you receiving money from it we called it eligible to the tax...
For BTC ???why people think receiving BTC in China is eligible to the tax?? as long as government isn't recognized BTC as a money~~
And send to thousand of things to other people isn't mean we need pay tax ...Lot of people posting billions of item abroad each day ,did  you mean they need to pay tax?? No ,the only thing they need to pay is the post order.




 

[Vycid]

Western thoughts isn't the same in China. For Friedcat he selling his devices by receiving BTC.. First of all ,Chinese government isn't recognized BTC as a money..Thus logically, they are trading stuffs with stuffs, no law in China indicated people trading stuff with stuff need to registered with the government.
Just like you and me , we are friend, you gives me a computer ,as I appreciate what you did ,I give you back a BTC...Do we need to registered our gift transaction to the government Are you insane

It's all about volume. In most countries you cannot legally "receive a gift" of "trade stuffs with stuffs" worth millions USD without paying tax or at least registering your deal properly.

Of course , In China is absolutely no tax duty on receiving Gift...I can buy a diamond rings no matter how much it worth and gives to my girlfriend as my girlfriend appreciate to me gives me back no matter what the size of BTC...
Volume of the transaction isn't change the basic principle of BTC that isn't recognized as money by the government! Which countries you lived that request people to pay duty when they exchange their gift??? I am highly doubt this government can be existed without riot within those angry people.

If Chinese Government stated that they recognized BTC as a money , I think this great....super good news for us...we will see BTC soon hit 10000USD.

Don't you see the difference between giving a diamond ring personally and sending thousands of devices all over the world? First, it's too noticeable for tax office and customs. And second, you can't just say that you have such many friends and send them gifts all the time.

Hey, what the differences ? of course there are no differences.... logically only when you receiving money from it we called it eligible to the tax...
For BTC ???why people think receiving BTC in China is eligible to the tax?? as long as government isn't recognized BTC as a money~~
And send to thousand of things to other people isn't mean we need pay tax ...Lot of people posting billions of item abroad each day ,did  you mean they need to pay tax?? No ,the only thing they need to pay is the post order.




 

Do you understand how laws work? It DOES mean we (and more pointedly, friedcat) need to pay tax. Do you think a company that digs gold out of the ground and then sends gold to their shareholders would be tax-exempt?

Tax codes are FAR, FAR more complex than you seem prepared to accept. This sort of circumstance is covered for anything that has a fair market exchange rate (and bitcoin does, as we are well aware).

[EskimoBob]

I think the mining revenue is 100% transparent already...

Uh?
Of course it isn't.
A proper report would include how much he spends on hardware, on paying employees, on electricity...

I am pretty sure this Friedcat has numerous profit margin ,he can cover all his expenses by his on shares income from other 24K of shares.
He intended to be over satisfy those other shareholders, and One more thing ,if you full of doubt about his ability, then just go and dump your shares.

This is a perfect demonstration of how little you understand about Co's and how money moves around in a business. 2 x LOL

[SOSLOVE868]

So everyones thoughts are simply, lets just assume that no-one finds out that AM is a real company and taxes them. Good luck to the Chinese employees when the authorities do find out! (Afterall China is such an easy place on people who break laws?)

The simple fact is that AM is a business (which by law must be registered) and it is making and selling stuff (millions of USD equivalent per month). It happens to sell this stuff denominated in something other than Renminbi, but which has a clearly calculable value in Renminbi. This is no different to mining gold or oil which is denominated in USD.

The ignorance on here is staggering. I agree it's not a problem for investors, who just care about dividends, but it will matter if the staff get jailed or the company closed because it chose to ignore local laws.

You cannot simply make something, sell it and ignore the law without consequences at some point. This same point applies to almost all Bitcoin securities. Most of these securities pass-through entire income per share, without deducting income tax on the profits (if it is a share income can only be paid from post-tax) or by withholding tax (if it is debt payments made outside the country of domicile). Of course all this may be occuring in zero-tax environments, but I highly doubt it.

They've only been around a few months, so will probably be able to get this sorted if they do it NOW, but if they don't if I was them I'd be very very scared right now about a knock on the door from the authorities.

Western thoughts isn't the same in China. For Friedcat he selling his devices by receiving BTC.. First of all ,Chinese government isn't recognized BTC as a money..Thus logically, they are trading stuffs with stuffs, no law in China indicated people trading stuff with stuff need to registered with the government.
Just like you and me , we are friend, you gives me a computer ,as I appreciate what you did ,I give you back a BTC...Do we need to registered our gift transaction to the government Are you insane

Does he pay for his rent and electricity in bitcoins too, you think?

Such great thinkers around here.

(And yes, you DO need to report gifts larger than a certain size or exceeding a quota.)

Of course He can't pay BTC as his rent or electricity, Just BTC isn't money In China......  and anyway, FC is not eligible to pay directly tax either ,because only tax appear here is the manufacture who produce it and sold out by receiving fiats..(Most likely FC has outsource all his products to them)..

[SOSLOVE868]

Seems again ,you guys are over estimate to Chinese tax law.... It is very simple assumption if BTC isn't a currency.. Can you tell me where is the income for AM?

NO INCOME = NO TAX  Right ??  how could a place in earth will tax on someone that does not have legal income???


Can you guys just be more realistic...

[SOSLOVE868]

Do you understand how laws work? It DOES mean we (and more pointedly, friedcat) need to pay tax. Do you think a company that digs gold out of the ground and then sends gold to their shareholders would be tax-exempt?

Tax codes are FAR, FAR more complex than you seem prepared to accept. This sort of circumstance is covered for anything that has a fair market exchange rate (and bitcoin does, as we are well aware).

Obviously, you are made it more false, Law recognized Gold as a commodity , not BTC~~~ how could you use the totally different concept to make this false comparison ?  

[elefter]

seems to me clear enough make btc no tax sell btc lots of tax...

[phantastisch]

No update from Friedcat since two weeks ? What is going on ?

[baloo_kiev]

Do you understand how laws work? It DOES mean we (and more pointedly, friedcat) need to pay tax. Do you think a company that digs gold out of the ground and then sends gold to their shareholders would be tax-exempt?

Tax codes are FAR, FAR more complex than you seem prepared to accept. This sort of circumstance is covered for anything that has a fair market exchange rate (and bitcoin does, as we are well aware).

Obviously, you are made it more false, Law recognized Gold as a commodity , not BTC~~~ how could you use the totally different concept to make this false comparison ?  

OK, forget BTC. When you move something like mining devices across the border, especially in quantities, you must declare it. When declaring, you must state the price. Either friedcat undervalues the devices or declares full price, it will eventually attract customs' attention.

[SOSLOVE868]

Do you understand how laws work? It DOES mean we (and more pointedly, friedcat) need to pay tax. Do you think a company that digs gold out of the ground and then sends gold to their shareholders would be tax-exempt?

Tax codes are FAR, FAR more complex than you seem prepared to accept. This sort of circumstance is covered for anything that has a fair market exchange rate (and bitcoin does, as we are well aware).

Obviously, you are made it more false, Law recognized Gold as a commodity , not BTC~~~ how could you use the totally different concept to make this false comparison ?  

OK, forget BTC. When you move something like mining devices across the border, especially in quantities, you must declare it. When declaring, you must state the price. Either friedcat undervalues the devices or declares full price, it will eventually attract customs' attention.

Does friedcat carry out these mining equipment over the broader by his self ? Chinese government does not impose high duty on export ,instead they encouraging people to export as much as possible. (this conclusion is comply by most industries, but there are still some industries has high duty on export).

Most of his devices are directly send it to your ordered address, and most of them a small shipment in size of measuring. They are totally not eligible for what you mean by export duty. And Chinese government does not tax on someone sending small things to oversea by his/her self, rather than under a registered company name.  If anyone had purchase USB OR blade directly from FC before , then he/she can prove that his parcels is under personal name or company's name , then we can noticed whether AM a registered as a company in China or not , or to determining whether they pay export tax or not

I personally believe that AM is not a what you perceived as a company.. Anyway so what ? people buying shares is because the trusted been placed on him, not rather than any other specific documentations.
 

 

[AMuppInTime]

From a highly regularized capitalist society, the laws are built around taxation of the individual:
ex: buy a car, pay sales taxes. Sell that car? the buyer will have to pay the used car sales taxes. this is despite the fact it occurred between individuals.
The moral point of view is discussable but irrelevant, the point being we're accustomed to it and this is the way the US looks at bitcoin or other trade mechanism right now: you should pay taxes on the transaction.

From a communist country experimenting with capitalist-like legal relaxation such as China, working around regulation is a way of life - it was the way to go about in full communist China and people still go about that way. Tax-evasion is the go-to of the people, facilitated by a concentration of wealth in the richest individuals. That is why China has experienced such a boom, because everything can and do happen really fast, with corrections coming later. It is very likely that friedcat is as we speak working to establish an operation in a tax-free haven in preparation of any regulation, but I doubt that it is an issue right now. There are no regulations for copyrights going on, and pirated software is everywhere. China, to the best of my knowledge, supports that. They are that way assimilating a lot of the tech assets without paying for it, and fast-forwarding their tech-savyness.
Is ASICminer legally wrong? I don't think so right now - it might in the future, but I believe friedcat is working to prevent any issue.
China is seeing an incredible boom economically, and I doubt the legal instruments are keeping up - they might be a yr or two behind.
We might just be in the lucky slot before the two have caught back on, and when that arrive will hopefully be out of that legal grey zone.

[SOSLOVE868]

This is a perfect demonstration of how little you understand about Co's and how money moves around in a business. 2 x LOL

Just two question can makes you thinks the same way with me: Did Friedcat deducting any mining revenues because he said he need to pay electricity or rent?
So who pay the rent and electricity? further more , You really think AM is Co??? if it is why should Friedcat not deducting your BTC to pay the electricity and rent?
Again be realistic, Friedcat just want to ensure BTC become succeed by contributing his effort in it ,also by giving out more BTC to the public.

He is a visioner, this what I thought of this guy.

[Taxidermista]

This is the TENTH group buy I'm organizing. The first one completed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195647.0 The second completed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=217981.0 The third completed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=219422.0 and the fourth one completed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222960.0 the fifth completed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226656.0 sixth, seventh, eight and nine can be found on forums

Status updates:
2013-07-07: just got word from friedcat that USBs are back in stock!

New sales before d-day.