Wow. This is huge. Antonopolis is THE voice of Bitcoin. If he's advocating mainstream adoption of "fully private crypto" then we're in business. https://twitter.com/aantonop/status/518061153030012930DRK's the only one that can do it. All the rest are one way or another f*ckd - either from no legacy interface or their developers succumbed to politics. "fully private crypto" is a little ambiguous though. I would have prefered the questioner saying a "fully anonymous crypto" Nobody of us says "private" coin, we all are putting emphasize on "anonymity"... Private coin sounds strange, like it's somebody's private coin, that he totally owns and we are his slaves, you know like Federal Reserve Notes. |
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Pardon me if I don't subscribe your your religious belief that miners have a god-given right to slurp from the cosmic money hose forever when technologically superior solutions come along and offer greater security and innovation for a fraction of the price.  So you just want the miners to receive less, but not disappear totally, right? It's a deception argument... Miners cash out and put sell pressure on the coin decreasing it's value. It's their own fault. But, they're dumb animals, you can't teach them. You can only use them with a paradoxical ruleset; make them into useful idiots. There are good miners and bad miners, like there are good investors and bad investors... People who have been there, and done that, and newcomers who are only controlled by their greed and are basically stumbling around. Unfortunately, whenever we have a market with thin liquidity, even a small number of miners who constantly sell, will cause a painfully large sell pressure. |
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So you just want the miners to receive less, but not disappear totally, right?
Yes. They will serve as Plan B, but the backup plan shouldn't be 4X as expensive as Plan A. Ok, that atleast sounds reasonable, and not as crazy as getting rid of mining altogether. I still have a gut feeling that the masternode network is not at all as secure and reliable as many here want to make me believe. It will be, it is supposed to, but we are not there yet. This needs years to improve. I am just guessing, I can't prove it, I admit, but this needs more careful longtime testing. Ah shit, now it sounds as if I am FUDing, when I am just tired. I need some sleep. |
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How's the debate going? I've been busy getting people into the Dark.....
It's an uphill struggle Tao, but so far none of the dinosaurs have credibly justified why they're 4x as valuable as the upstart mammals. Thats just an ignorant comment. we are all on the same side here and want to see dark succeed There are problems with a PoW system and there are many unknowns about this masternode system and likely it has its own problems that need to be discussed and worked out you may not be wrong but you will not convince anyone with that attitude towards the miners that got you here in the first place Pardon me if I don't subscribe your your religious belief that miners have a god-given right to slurp from the cosmic money hose forever when technologically superior solutions come along and offer greater security and innovation for a fraction of the price. So you just want the miners to receive less, but not disappear totally, right? |
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Yes you can.
Go place a 1000000DRK order on an exchange, if you have enough BTC/fiat. Get back to us about what that does to the price of DRK. A masternode serverfarm has to be setup too. Crazier yet, since you don't need to transfer the DRK to the masternodes, but can keep them external, imagine a really clever hacker who gets a few thousand unsecured webservers into his control, just to use them for this masternode takeover operation. He wouldn't even need to buy or rent the hardware...
He would just need to collude with rich enough rich DRK holders.
At this point I have no idea what you are even talking about.  Why, enough money is already in "good" hands: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/drk/#!rich |
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PoW is brutality paradox genius and should always exist, it's a "damn nature, you scary" way of doing things that many people just won't understand because they're too detached from the truth; humanity is the lowest animal. Mining takes greed, selfishness, and stupidity and turns them into a strength for the coin. It lest the coin feed of of humanity's lowest truths, whether humanity wants to admit what it is or not. The fact that mining can be so crude and still be so bulletproof shows us what we really are. Denying that won't make it go away, and won't make PoW worthless.
Well said. You are scaring me sometimes. |
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Exactly. There is no reason that a network supported by masternodes would be less secure than POW. Masternodes are already more decentralized than POW block finders, and if a change away from POW were to happen, there would be a multitude more masternodes added to the network because of the added profitability of owning one, even further increasing the level of decentralization. Full disclosure, I am a miner AND masternode operator. I would continue to mine other coins in order to buy more masternodes  Servers are inherently LESS secure than any miner. I am not afraid that someone takes my miner over. I am afraid to not sufficiently enough secure my masternodes. |
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You cannot buy enough Masternodes to have a realistic chance of subverting the network. There aren't enough DRK in existence.
And you can switch where your mining farm is pointed about 1000x times faster than you can set up a thousand Mastetnodes.
Yes you can. A masternode serverfarm has to be setup too. Crazier yet, since you don't need to transfer the DRK to the masternodes, but can keep them external, imagine a really clever hacker who gets a few thousand unsecured webservers into his control, just to use them for this masternode takeover operation. He wouldn't even need to buy or rent the hardware... He would just need to collude with rich enough DRK holders. |
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a nightmare for everybody else.
How? The purpose of the coin is to be used as a currency. Explain your nightmare situation or how this proposal interferes with the purpose of this coin. I think the problem of centralization and consolidation is much higher with masternodes than with miners. Show me numbers. Three big mining pools colluding can fork the DRK blockchain. How many MN ops would be needed to pervert the network? A much higher percentage, that's how the MN system was designed, you need far more than 51% to cause problems. Top 100 wallets buy 4 times the masternodes that are now in existence. Top 10 wallets buy 1.5 times the masternodes that are now in existence. And contrary to miners it would just take them an evening to set everything up and mess with the system and a few seconds to disappear again. |
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Masternodes are even more energy efficient, and just as resistant to decentralisation as mining ever was, arguably more so, with the added benefit that any attempt at centralisation makes DRK holders rich, not GPU/ASIC manufacturers.
But GPU/ASIC manufacturers create jobs... masternode holders are just happy fat pigs in shit who get fed even more?  (just kidding, but the image shall hopefully remain) |
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I have no problem with buying DRK on an exchange.
I have a problem when buying DRK on an exchange is the only option I were given COUPLED with the horror scenario that only Masternode owners were creating coins.
I agree with this. There is a problem when asics come along and suddenly only an elite group has the chance to mine though. Personally, I'd like to see a way to keep a ceiling on ability to garner hash power, such as changing the algo once it becomes clear x11 asics are on their way, and to just keep changing it. But I have no idea what is involved, certainly another hard fork, so maybe that's not possible. Yah, mining and masternodes are hurdles to investing into DRK. In the end though, that's an investor thing and not a user thing. There are other ways of gaining DRK. You can also sell things and accept DRK as payment. Though, at this time, that's not easy. Nobody wants to spend their DRK yet. Adoption is everything. Until DRK becomes widely used and liquid, it'll be so. BTW, I also think that having a dual system can possibly protect against things like 51% attack with some sort of checking system, but again, that would require a hard fork again.... But ASICS when massproduced become very cheap, much cheaper then CPU or GPU, all the cheap USB ASIC miners are proof of that (and they run with 5 Volts). I am looking forward to that! That is just the natural progression of any innovation, we should embrace this, not be afraid of it! Doesn't matter what the unit cost is, rich people will just buy more of them. At bulk discoint. And that is not different with CPU or GPU, it's just that everything is suddenly energy-efficient. That's what I mean when I say: we should embrace this. |
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a nightmare for everybody else.
How? The purpose of the coin is to be used as a currency. Explain your nightmare situation or how this proposal interferes with the purpose of this coin. I think the problem of centralization and consolidation is much higher with masternodes than with miners. |
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There is a problem when asics come along and suddenly only an elite group has the chance to mine though.
Hey Tante, The idea being proposed isn't to only allow MN operators to mine, but to do away with mining completely. The MN network would handle block generation and distribute payments in the same manner as the current 20% they receive off blocks. So no asics at all. wow, so the entire future of DRK lies in the hands of a few completely centralized masternode owners? Yep, you got that right. A wet dream for some misguided masternode holders, a nightmare for everybody else. |
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I have no problem with buying DRK on an exchange.
I have a problem when buying DRK on an exchange is the only option I were given COUPLED with the horror scenario that only Masternode owners were creating coins.
I agree with this. There is a problem when asics come along and suddenly only an elite group has the chance to mine though. Personally, I'd like to see a way to keep a ceiling on ability to garner hash power, such as changing the algo once it becomes clear x11 asics are on their way, and to just keep changing it. But I have no idea what is involved, certainly another hard fork, so maybe that's not possible. Yah, mining and masternodes are hurdles to investing into DRK. In the end though, that's an investor thing and not a user thing. There are other ways of gaining DRK. You can also sell things and accept DRK as payment. Though, at this time, that's not easy. Nobody wants to spend their DRK yet. Adoption is everything. Until DRK becomes widely used and liquid, it'll be so. BTW, I also think that having a dual system can possibly protect against things like 51% attack with some sort of checking system, but again, that would require a hard fork again.... But ASICS when massproduced become very cheap, much cheaper then CPU or GPU, all the cheap USB ASIC miners are proof of that (and they run with 5 Volts). I am looking forward to that! That is just the natural progression of any innovation, we should embrace this, not be afraid of it! |
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One of banks that I use in the UK now challenges every payment I make to a bitcoin whale as fraudulent activity. I have to spend ten minutes on the phone verifying my identity and explaining the transaction.
Exactly the kind of shit I want to ommit |
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You can also buy cryptos over the counter. Not everywhere, but localbitcoins works great.
Yes, ofcourse, I need to try that, supposedly there is a guy in my town selling/buying BTC... lol, I wonder who he is... Anyway, my prefered way will be to sell you guys something that you want, and getting payed in DRK. Nothing more satisfying than that.  Oh, this reminds me: Continuing my darkcoin community research... ...using the forum extraction tool I am developing... What is the next thing you want to see? 1) Do you want to know who of all the darkcoin users swears the most (using words like f**k etc..) then vote by donating any amount to this address: Xwz1utupG5LqWMsCeZqF3vo9xtiA7FXcjH2) If you would like to see a word cloud of all the comments evan duffield ever made, vote by donating to this address: Xn9b76yUZ5zGAcMvFv41ZSYn9XHMJpX833(I will eventually fulfill both tasks if they reach 5 DRK each, otherwise just the one that has more DRK) |
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I can't help but think that making decisions about changing the fundamentals at this point could turn out to be a fatal mistake.
ABSO +1 LUTELY! |
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Satoshis principles of how a blockchain is secured and validated. You just want to let the validation be done by an elitist club of early adopters, instead of giving EVERYBODY a chance of participating in the coin creation. That's what I don't get.
Mining gives everybody the possibility to get to some DRK without the need to go thru an exchange or thru some smug MN holder who thinks he is now supposed to be the sole source of DRK.
I am mining all kinds of coins, so I don't need to go thru the whole established banking system with all their KYC etc...
No bank anywhere has my personal information and knows that I bought cryptocurrencies, EXACTLY because I was able to get to some coins by running a mining machine!
So, if you get rid of mining, you take away from people the possibility that they can create coins themselves, instead you are forcing them to only be able to buy darkcoins thru an exchange, which is INSANE!
Darkcoin is VERY COOL in that regard, because it let's you still mine with your CPU/GPU. (And imagine in the future having X11 USB ASICS that cost 10 $? Isn't that fantastic? Giving some kid a X11 miner as present and having him participate in the network. Ok, maybe in some rich elitist famility they can give some kid 1000 DRK complete with managed server, .... )
If the blockchain were to be validated by MN network only, I would not trust it. Sure, everybody can provide a blockchain, it's not just about its visibility, it's about its integrity!
You have the burden of the proof to show that MN network can really replace mining. Not me!
Such extraordinairy claims require extraordinairy evidence.
This is a great point, especially when you consider that in some parts of the world, people have had their bank accounts closed for being involved in trading cryptocurrencies. To be fair though, if you really wanted Darkcoins, you could receive some in exchange for goods or services without going through the exchanges. To add to your point, at the moment the plan regarding instant transactions is to use the miners' block generation as a backup when there is a problem. Without the miners, that wouldn't be possible. That said, I think the point thelonecrouton raises about not needing so much computing power to process the transactions is a valid one, what's needed is consensus. I'm not condoning the abolition of miners either, but it is important to adapt. Things do not necessarily need to be done the way they've always been done in the past. Ofcourse, I think everybody has valid points, me disagreeing doesn't mean that I am not open for discussion. You mentioned the other important way to get to DRK that will soon become the most important way for myself. I have been asking for DRK donations (for all the crazy shit I create) since day one, and I plan on creating small apps on my DRK only website and selling them for DRK. I am 100% in for whatever ways exist to grab some DRK without the need of exchanging Fiat for it. Yes we need to evolve, but let's take nature as an example: we need more redundancy, we need backups, we need fallback solutions. We must think of the darkcoin system as an organism, and think of masternodes and miners as cells within this system. I call miners the GUT BACTERIA. LMAO.  I try to establish that notion. But what would masternodes represent in this case? Well, obviously it's the NERVOUS SYSTEM. GUT BACTERIA digest food and create the energy particles that the NERVOUS SYSTEM needs to function. |
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That's why I immediately assume that you must have some bad agenda (I am probably wrong), because you just want to push forward and drop mining altogether...
Slow down. Clear your mind. Look at this picture from 10 steps back and forget everything you know. That's always a good advice. You are right.  |
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But you want this accessibility to be restricted
Being able to generate interest with only purchasing 10 drk is a much lower barrier to entry than building a mining farm ..  Your desire is only based on greed, and it's not the good kind of greed (getting wealthy)... it's the bad sociopathic kind of greed ("Give me your stuff, you useless eater")
Consider the security gains. Is the fact the MN operators make more coin a reason to deny security gains for the coin? No, but you would need to prove that security gains do really exist, and are not just based on greed. You know, miners have a 5 year old history of reliable security. That carries much more weight than Masternodes. Masternodes still have to prove themselves. (especially if you suddenly don't want to use them for anonymization only anymore, but want them to do blockchain securing too!!!) I am looking forward to what people like gmaxwell have to say about darkcoin now that it is open source. Has he reacted yet? We need more acceptance on a cryptographic research level before we even start contemplating things like "getting rid of miners". (I am still cringing) That's why I immediately assume that you must have some bad agenda (I am probably wrong), because you just want to push forward and drop mining altogether... it doesnt make any sense to me. Darkcoin is soooooooo incredibly young, let's just wait another year or so and see what happens, right? Only pump and dump schemes need the action to be fast and swift, right? |
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