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got my investment back and i still own 6TH. ROI and profit achieved within 30days. good luck folks!
edit: My bad, 5TH not 6TH
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ignorance appears to be bliss, in reality it's just ignorant.
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I like My Dutch Tradition. By the Way, the youtube film shows soms strange books that are not real ?Sinterklaas books. These books they show the people are ridiculous! I Have never seen anything close to it, "Sinterklaas" books are full of joy and not about slavery.. I must admit the video is a bit shit, i think it's meant to more show how people in london react to someone dressed in black face for fun. Sint Nicolaas en zijn knecht http://www.hetoudekinderboek.nl/archief/BomNikolaas/BomNikolaas.htm     Only sinterklaas gives candy.  |
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Couldn't have put it any better.
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As my father says. "A good trade is when both the buyer and seller are unhappy".
Your father was wiser than mine. All mine ever said was "is there more beer in the fridge?". My father always told me a good trade was one where he did not get caught. |
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perhaps they have had a temporary change of plan again, with the current lower difficulty rises they see it better to hold and mine for now.
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I think you underestimate children... Especially those that already knew zwarte piet. Children have anything but shortsighted minds and they will ask questions, believe me!
then its about time Belgians and Dutch owned up to their children and tell them zwarte piet will be changing due to racial history behind the charachter and the time he was created, children can handle the truth! it's not about putting immigrant WAYS before yours, it's about understanding why YOUR ways might be insulting and disrespectful to the peoples of the old slave colonies of the dutch empire........ surely just a little bit of respect. |
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I respect your opinion. But you must see that in time all off this will probably change natural.
Personally I've never heard zwarte piet with a stupid voice. At least that's not how we played him.
We use the black skin, golden earrings en big red lips as a disguise so our children would not recognize us.
So things already changed and every year they will continue changing. But please there are more important stuff in the world right now.
Give it time and especially give our people and children time...
In the past zwarte piet use to be played with a Suriname type accent this changed in the 20th century due to the negative racial implication. why have they changed him so much, to fog the history behind the character? history & changes of zwarte piet http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/zwarte-piet/ |
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As I tried to explain a couple of times. We don't see it as slavery. People dress themselfs like moors. Not slaves!
If that's an insult then it's an insult to dress up like any race.
People can dress like a moor without having black face, big red lips gold earrings and stupid voices. it's these additions to the dress that kind of make zwarte piet look a bit like a....... if it's soot on his face whats with the black curly hair, dark black skin, gold earings big read lips and stupid voices very similar to other stereotypical racial images. Given the history, the orignal book and the current debate, yes i fail to understand why black face is needed. nothing personal, i have many dutch friends who are for and against, no hard feelings. |
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De discussie leeft omdat het racisme probleem in Nederland groter is dan we willen toegeven.
+1 the debate and my opinions( along with others) is still going on in the none dutch thread also |
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Liberals and human rights campaigners must be very bored. They should go to Syria, Iraq or East Ukraine to fight for human rights if they want to be useful. Unfortunately there are rough people with guns and knives so sticking to Zwarte Piet and fucking around traditional Christmas stuff is safer and perhaps fits better to their agenda.
I live in NL, I am not exactly picking any random thing to questions, I am genuinely interested in this and the history, but thanks for your informative addition of your thoughts on the subject. |
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every xmas this gets brought up on my teamspeak server by a family of dutch moroccans, they laugh at how much pussies the dutch people are to change their traditions so as to not offend people of colour
it takes a bigger man to admit he as wrong and to change than it does to stay the same edit: also to my understanding, Moroccans don't exactly hold Black Africans with the highest regard, descendants of slaves..... |
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slavery is still so fresh that people int he western world black themselves up as sinter klaas servant and don't even understand or recognize the history behind what they are doing, they do it because the children like it.....
one part of me thinks the Dutch just don't want to admit that their time old tradition might just be slightly racist or born out of..... would this then mean the dutch are racist? best just avoid the topic altogether and just keep zwarte piet as he is and plead ignorance..... nah the dutch would never do that...... ignorace is bliss after all.
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Zwarte piet is something that evolved over time.
Started out with being demons and slowly transformed into black slaves over the years.
it's interesting how the story transforms from a demon into a black slave over time.... no connotation there at all.... perfectly normal none racist childrens story. |
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Children can't nor have to understand our current society with their culture standards. When you say to your kid that he has to behave the kid will see it as a parental requirement. If you say to the kid he has to behave else he won't get anything from Santa Claus or Sinterklaas the kid sees it as something magical. People have always known this, why else would there be fairy tales (and there morals). You would suggest that children may not believe in these stories anymore... I believe those children would grow up very depressed and with a great dislike of society. You can only know this if you've ever see the sparkle into a kids eye when he opens up his presents given by some magic and compare it with the times you give him a present yourself... Trust me, it's worth it  And for why people would dress up, well I think it's to enforce the story (children believe what they see). Off course it is also part of the tradition and as I've said: How is it racists when a "so called slave" is singing laughing and giving candy to happy children??? I think if you live in the past anything can be called racists at some point. The word has been misused a little to much. Also, I hope everyone realizes that I (and I think a lot of other people) didn't even knew what a moor was until the entire zwarte piet discussion started :p okay i will dress up as Hitler, parade around the streets of Amsterdam giving sweets to children and that will make my dress sense okay? I personally think zwarte piet resembles racist stereo types of the past and given the time in history when the character came about and the pictures of him acting as sinter klass's servant, maybe just maybe the anti zwarte piet movement have a point...... but then again the kids get their sweets.... |
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-snip-
It's cool children enjoy sinterklaas and piet but do adults really need to black themselves up with big red lips and gold earrings for their kids to enjoy sinter klaas? Yes, because that is our tradition and that is how we celebrate Sinterklaas. Children would be disappointed if "Zwarte Piet" wouldn't be there. A teacher once did an experiment with a few children. She said that "Sinterklaas" would be coming to their classroom and started to change her outfit into "Sinterklaas" during that story. Once she was done she said that she was "Sinterklaas" and the children asked her where their teacher went.
I don't think children would notice or care if piet was no longer zwarte piet, i don't think they would care if it was a chicken head on a kangaroo body, they just like candy. traditions change, traditions are not always right for the current times. traditions are born at different times when different things are accepted, but this is up to those living in the Netherlands to decide upon. Fox hunting was a tradition (rich people) in the UK but was outlawed 10 years ago...... times change, sometimes for the better. |
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don't get me started on santa claus........ people just need to stop telling fairy tales to their kids about strange old men with beards coming from foreign lands to gift them for being good throughout the year, consumerist bullcrap holiday. We can compare zwarte piet to wahtever you want, but two wrongs don't really make a right do they?
It's cool children enjoy sinterklaas and piet but do adults really need to black themselves up with big red lips and gold earrings for their kids to enjoy sinter klaas?
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