The Ethereum Classic will be attacked to death by the big Etherum holders. They can sell their ETC to 0.
Oh sure, Barry Silbert and the other pro-ETC whales are just going to give up, roll over, and die as submissively as possible. Let's at least wait until Nick Szabo weighs in until we restart the production of ETC Obituaries.  |
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Without immutability, we're no better than fiat. -Johnny_Mnemonic
With immutability we're just a legacy bug ridden piece of software. ~LOL~ I think the Monero has also hard forked to correct some kind of problems. So is the bitcoin and other coins. You can't really compare a non-contentious hard fork of software (like Monero's) with the contentious hard fork of a blockchain (like ETH). Since many noobs are, like you, confused about these basic-albeit-overlapping Crypto 101 concepts, I'll try to get an educational, clarifying paper written about it. Working title: "There Will Never Be a Monero Classic." Opening quote: A hard fork to change the ownership of coins is next to impossible to pull off with Monero since it would break any subsequent transactions that used the tainted coins as a mixin.
Second opening quote: [the excellent bit fluffy wrote explaining the same thing, but with more words, that I can't find right now] |
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ETC is gaining serious traction. It makes sense to hold some of it
ETC is open to double spend replay attacks and is barely mined so is highly unsupported and insecure. It's also about to suffer a serious 51% attack. Gud luck with that coinage. And this is supposed to endear the community to ETH investors how exactly? The fact they can roll back the clock in pursuit of their precious investments and then blow the opposition out of the water at will? Good luck putting that on a flyer. It's over. Well said. If Chancellor Butarin passively excludes or actively supports attacks on ETC, expect a mutiny within Team Vitalik as his devs either defect to Team ETC or (as is the actual case so far) pledge to support both branches and let users decide. The investment case for ETH is weaker than for ETC: What I realized so far is that a blockchain without a well-defined social contract will sooner or later face serious problems. At this moment, interestingly, the old "classic" chain is the one that already has a better contract. It’s the one that hasn’t been changed, but splitting off the majority of its value into a new chain changed its implied contract.
We can assume that whoever finds the old chain valuable believes that unintended contract behavior is no reason to fork. That chain will never face another crisis because of a similar event. On the other hand, ether holders of the new chain might still disagree if this fork was a precedent for all similar cases or just a one-time disaster fix that shouldn’t happen ever again.
-Zsolt Felföldi is an ethereum developer working on the Go implementation of the ethereum protocol, sometimes called Geth. http://www.coindesk.com/tale-two-chains-ethereum/ |
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What will happen is those with the free ETC tokens won't be in a rush to cash them out - after all, they were free right? So they will sit on them and HODL, giving them some value.
While some are holding the line on their new ETC, a few other speculators might defect or decide to jump into ETC... Even if for the lulz. Eventually the trickle of bloody ETH going into ETC is gonna become a full blown epidemic as everyone starts a rush to cash out of the larger sibling and into the one that is growing non-stop.
I think ETC is gonna be a run away train, and I'm on board to the tune of a few bitcoins. Minimum situation? The two reach parity - one way or another. After that it's anyone's guess what happens.
I expect (oscillation around) parity as well. Balance seems stable from a Nash perspective. There is room in the market for both versions, an immutable ETC for some applications and a mutable ETH for others. This implies ETC is heavily undervalued. I am accumulating accordingly.  Vitalik really pissed off some institutional types. Barry Silbert and Kraken represent deep pockets, and are backing ETC to the hilt. At least one ETH core dev is committed to supporting both forks, saying it's up to users (not devs) to decide which is better: let’s make it clear that we (the ethereum developers) have never abandoned the old chain. The "Ethereum Classic" chain is just as much our child as the forked one, and if both of them survive (which is the users’ choice, not ours), then I intend to take care of them equally in the future too.Zsolt Felföldi is an ethereum developer working on the Go implementation of the ethereum protocol, sometimes called Geth. http://www.coindesk.com/tale-two-chains-ethereum/ This ETH dev says which fork survives "is the users’ choice, not ours" but Chancellor Butarin believes he makes the law, passes the sentence, and should swing the sword. |
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OH: Each HF is another halvening of VitalikCoin's credibility.   #REKT |
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Classic Ethereum looks like it will be staying for a while. But who is developing/maintaining it? Are there a group if volunteers of core developers to bring the project forward?
let’s make it clear that we (the ethereum developers) have never abandoned the old chain. The "Ethereum Classic" chain is just as much our child as the forked one, and if both of them survive (which is the users’ choice, not ours), then I intend to take care of them equally in the future too.Zsolt Felföldi is an ethereum developer working on the Go implementation of the ethereum protocol, sometimes called Geth. http://www.coindesk.com/tale-two-chains-ethereum/ This ETH dev says which fork survives "is the users’ choice, not ours" but Chancellor Butarin believes he makes the law, passes the sentence, and should swing the sword. Comedy ensues, then intensifies. |
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Or they are basicly stealing?
XPOST (applies to all exchanges but especially Shitlord HQ, aka Coinbase) IF YOU HAVE mETH on GDAX, let Brian and Fred know they owe you the equivalent ETC.
Don't let Coinbase steal your ETC and dump them in their effort to suppress the immutable original chain with economic attacks.
If they blow you off, send a Letter of Demand via Certified mail. CC the SEC, California State AG, and local BBB.
Make it very clear the longer they drag their feet, the more they will owe you for the lost time/opportunity.
GDAX cannot hold out when all the other exchanges are jumping on the ETC train.
The pressure will be unimaginable when lawyers and regulators look into GDAX manipulating market outcomes, at the expense of betraying their fiduciary responsibilities and duties, and with exorbitant conflicts of interest at play.
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Helicopter Vitalik started a war he cannot win. What I realized so far is that a blockchain without a well-defined social contract will sooner or later face serious problems. At this moment, interestingly, the old "classic" chain is the one that already has a better contract. It’s the one that hasn’t been changed, but splitting off the majority of its value into a new chain changed its implied contract.
We can assume that whoever finds the old chain valuable believes that unintended contract behavior is no reason to fork. That chain will never face another crisis because of a similar event. On the other hand, ether holders of the new chain might still disagree if this fork was a precedent for all similar cases or just a one-time disaster fix that shouldn’t happen ever again.
-Zsolt Felföldi is an ethereum developer working on the Go implementation of the ethereum protocol, sometimes called Geth. http://www.coindesk.com/tale-two-chains-ethereum/#REKT |
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intellectually challenged Spoetniktard sockies in this tread who persist in their bailout scaremongering bull
Polo and Bittrex already trade ETC in volume surpassing the 51% attackers' pretender coin. Kraken is coming soon. Silbert and China are all over it. The usurper project is rapidly bleeding $$$ and miners to the legitimate chain. The immutable original chain is winning this popularity contest, which is being held in the marketplace. Chancellor Butarin tried to kill his own project, but it will live on without him, stronger than ever before. Chancellor Butarin is a weakness, a point of failure which has been excised via the mETH fork. Without immutability, we're no better than fiat. -Johnny_Mnemonic |
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I'm not going to speculate on the future of Ethereum ring signatures here. Monero already has a working system today - I think it will become more popular once we have more web services using it.
You don't even have a GUI, monero man-child developers (thats how Vitalik calls them) are useless. Way over 50% of hash rate are botnets. It's dead Jim... I'm still holding a decent amount (couple tens of thousands) but the first pump that comes along - I'm out. Oh well, I guess I'd better copy-and-paste my comment from Reddit on the state of Ethereum: On the topic of poor design: - Vitalik has repeatedly eschewed and ignored commentary from researchers and plowed ahead with poor design decisions. - Where he hasn't ignored the commentary, he has instead noted it and then layered complexity on top of the bad idea in order to make it workable (complexity is the enemy of secure cryptography and good system design). - He also repeatedly fails to cite prior research / researchers, which I guess leads some to view him as more than he is, which in turn leads to an inherent trust in a poorly designed system. - He uses mathematical notation in a completely incorrect manner in formal papers (some of which govern the very inner workings of Ethereum) such that mathematicians are unable to peer review the paper. If you can't understand what he's trying to express, how can you confirm if the concept is valid or the mathematical proof is correct? - When the above is pointed out to him he (naively or foolishly or disingenuously) claims that the security of the model is "in the code" and not in the mathematical proofs. This bizarre world-view is only dangerous in light of the fact that the system has to at least protect its users somewhat. On the topic of mismanagement: - Instead of focusing on a single implementation they instead hired developers to build out at least 4 of the multiple implementations. - The consequence of this was not only a breaking inter-implementation fork 6 months ago, but also has (as their security auditors put it) "testing needs...more complex than anything we've looked at before". - They raised $18.4 million, which was almost entirely spent a year later. According to the blog post on the matter they have enough money to make it to June 2016, possibly a little beyond that. That is truly shocking, considering that Ethereum had the 4th highest crowd-funded project funds. - Instead of biting the bullet and immediately beginning a systematic process of converting the majority of the funds raised into a store of value that would remain relatively stable for the 3-5 years it would take for the project to be built up, they kept the bulk of it in Bitcoin, resulting in a $9 million shortfall on their initial funding amount (when viewed in USD terms). - Despite promising financial transparency with the money that had been raised, it took them over a year before they suddenly realised they actually needed to come through on that. A startup needn't make their financial activities public at all, but if that is the case then don't promise such transparency. Doing so, and then failing to deliver on that promise, points to incredible mismanagement by individuals that have no clue how to run or build up a company. Anypony have a link to that clever bit fluffy said about ETC the other day? You know the one. |
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Well, let me ask you this, mister neutrality: How do you feel about immutability?
Immutability in this context will make anyone who is long (or short) an anonymous coin not neutral. That would include among other coins Monero. For this reason I do not consider myself neutral here, even though I do not hold any ETH or DAO. Edit: A hard fork to change the ownership of coins is next to impossible to pull of with Monero since it would break any subsequent transactions that used the tainted coins as a mixin. This signature-worthy quote succinctly demonstrates yet another way in which Monero does not suffer from the overhang of potential fraud. Thank you smoothie, for unlocking the thread in light of AM's epic post and the need to reevaluate the OP in light of ETC's recent surge of popularity. |
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Thanks boss! Nice quote pick by dnaleor. Now when is smooth, our newly minted Steemillionaire ®, going to move up a Dan or two? Mustang Tax: |
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Exactly, zero financial support was given. A transaction was reversed. That's that.
Mutability? What's that? You mean the thingy on the TV remote that silences The Kardashians when you get a phone call? 
#REKT |
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Is Elaine Ou a troll? Is Frances Coppola also a troll?
I could not care less if they are trolls or not. What I do care about is industry leaders such as Fred Ehrsam endorsing ETH and putting it front of millions of new eyes. He matters, unlike you insignificant crybabies that continue to spam the thread. You won't acknowledge that Ou and Coppola are obviously not trolls because you are too much of a fucking coward and pumping piece of shit. A person with integrity would be capable of recognizing their analysis is certainly not trolling and be able to develop a more cohesive, mature response to their pointed criticisms than "I could not care less ZOMG YOUR A CRYBABY  ." Their essays are logically superior to Fred's tweets and AMA marketing hype, but you'd rather shift to focus to me, for daring to bring up the uncomfortable truths undermining Fred's cheerleading. It sure is easier to miscategorize dissenting opinion as "spam" and shoot the messenger than counter their devastating (albeit inconvenient for pumpers) essays, isn't it?  Poor dear, you probably think "mutability" is something to do with the button that turns down the TV volume and don't understand what all the fuss is about. As a Maxwell Maximalist, I'd like to remind everyone that when you find yourself disagreeing with GMAX on technical matters, you are almost certainly the one in error. I think [the ETH TARP-fork is] a bad idea which will harm the reputation of cryptocurrency in general and potentially fuel adverse legal/regulatory intervention (e.g. will regulators believe that developers working on cryptocurrencies can make arbitrary adjustments on demand-- with ethereum as a proof point). It's also going to create wasted effort for users of Bitcoin do differentiate themselves from the not very decenteralized hf-ethereum. ...
When the DAO caught fire and I saw forwards of chatlogs with exchanges talking about hardforking to 'fix' it, I was shocked and sent Vitalik email urging them to not do so. In Bitcoin land such a thing would be unthinkable, and I think actually impossible.
Ethereum's website has long loudly advertised (even louder than Bitcoin materials): "Ethereum is a decentralized platform for applications that run exactly as programmed without any chance of fraud, censorship or third-party interference."; and all that goes out the window when a service using the system suffers a highly predictable fault from a well known class of vulnerabilities? I could certainly appreciate that ethereum could have a different philosophy than Bitcoin-- it's important that systems with many different philosophies exist-- but since ethereum has marked itself with a very Bitcoin like view, this is going to continue to create confusion in the market.
To all those people who argue 'hey, ethereum isn't money it's just fuel for a public distributed network' ethereum classic will probably have a pretty good value proposition: better integrity with a lower access cost (assuming its adoption doesn't overtake ethhf). And just for good measure, here's Wlad with the coup de grace. The moral hazard here is that the hardfork 'undid' a user error, not fixed a script/system-level issue Wow, Prof. H4x0r is in that thread really getting stomped into the ground by fluffypony and Wlad!  Good luck building your mETH castle on a foundation of shifting sand, where exceptions to the rules (and ethos) are decided by Vitalik on a case-by-case basis, depending on how much bubbly money overinvestment is at stake. |
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The people who did not vote, give up their rights to decide. So the people who voted decide the fate of the Ethereum.
Given the "unstoppable code" marketing, the people who did not vote may not have even been aware there was a vote, or that immutability was something controversial that could possibly and suddenly come up for a vote. You can't suddenly hold a referendum on a DAO TARP and expect busy people to be paying attention, much less have the time to come to an informed decision in a few days. Hey I know, let's have a vote on doubling the number of Bitcoins, to 42 million total. Quick, go figure out how to sign a vote with your proof of stake! You have Two Weeks. Oh what, your coins are in an exchange? Sorry, you'll just have to let other people act as your proxy. Let's start taking bets on how long until there's another TARP fork. I'll be optimistic, and wager ETH can make it another year with another obnoxiously hypocritical bailout for a TBTF dumb contract. |
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The trolls are thick. They must have sold all their ETH. If you morons think you are MMs, keep dreaming. Just spammers.
Troll on....
Is Elaine Ou a troll? Is Frances Coppola also a troll? No, they are not. They are just two very smart people who wrote devastating essays amply demonstrating the overwhelming undesirability of the TARP-fork, which officially transforms ETH into VitalikCoin. ETH Classic? Now that's a troll, and a very good one IMO. We need a web page to track the number of days since the last elective bail out for TBTF "smart" contracts (written in "unstoppable" code, don'tchaknow). Stop being disingenuous. You know as well as I that a fork can happen on any blockchain. It just so happened so many morons invested in the DOA (largest crowd fund in history) that the fork was passed with ease. So the argument that it can never happen on this coin is total BS and you know it. Get enough morons with the same goal and an entitlement attitude, a fork will pass, even on your favorite shitcoin. They should have burned the stolen ETH, but there were just too many crying investors voting for the bailout. This is why corporations are not run by the investors, self-interest trumps greater good. Grow up kids, the mob rules in crypto. But whatever it's over now, you can stop spamming. Is Elaine Ou a troll? Is Frances Coppola also a troll? |
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The trolls are thick. They must have sold all their ETH. If you morons think you are MMs, keep dreaming. Just spammers.
Troll on....
Is Elaine Ou a troll? Is Frances Coppola also a troll? No, they are not. They are just two very smart people who wrote devastating essays amply demonstrating the overwhelming undesirability of the TARP-fork, which officially transforms ETH into VitalikCoin. ETH Classic? Now that's a troll, and a very good one IMO. We need a web page to track the number of days since the last elective bail out for TBTF "smart" contracts (written in "unstoppable" code, don'tchaknow). |
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I remember someone on /r/bitcoin having a few good reasons why freewallet was very scammy. I wouldn't use it. Interesting. That doesn't seem like Steve "competition is a sin" Jobs' usual MO. Tinfoil hat(Apple approved scammy wallet so they can panic the herd and then justify banning all of them forever, Because Muh ApplePay) Unless they found (or BCX sold them) a way to taint/track XMR, this goes directly against Apple's "Be as Evil as Possible" walled-garden philosophy. Perhaps Apple engineers brush with being the FBI's eternal handmaidens (if not the Fappening) forced them to a late life Come-to-Satoshi cypherpunk conversion?  |
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Good work. Keep stealing ch33p XMR from the market and hloding them in your strong hands. Using shitcoin pumps to help is some great jujutsu.
I hope (lifestyle-altering amounts of) money doesn't change smooth. It would suck if he spent all his time on beaches in hammocks with rum-heavy tropical drinks, instead of slumming around the altcoin ghetto with us. |
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I didn't say it is dead, i'm saying theres nothing special about it, no pump potential be it artificial or well deserved. No chance to be used alongside bitcoin, or after it dies, because it would have to wait in a really long waiting line. So, it's good only for speculation, but unless youre a day trader, i dont see why would you invest in it. It's like investing in trumpcoin, no real profit potential unless theres a blatant manipulation and you exit in time.
There is something "special about" -100% fungibility -ASIC resistant PoW -RingCT -Kovri -working dynamic blocksize -tail emission Monero can't be dead yet, because it hasn't been born. We've been in labor for months, so expect a delivery Soon. |
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