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1181  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Potential bug in bitcoin: long-range attacks. on: May 09, 2014, 03:56:53 AM
The cost of this attack is about 1080BTC for 30 days or 13140BTC for 1 year, plus depreciation and electricity.
It's not plus, it's either/or. If the alternatives you're comparing are attacking or not mining at all, the cost to attack is depreciation+electricity. If the alternatives are attacking or mining normally, the cost to attack is the lost mining revenue.

Let's go back to the reality. Since there is a 4x difficulty adjustment rule, does it mean an attack of this kind won't be able to reverse more than 4 blocks?
1182  Economy / Speculation / Re: SecondMarket Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer on: May 08, 2014, 12:20:17 PM

Will we see another big chunk bought this Thursday  Huh

That's real. Here are the average amount of bitcoin bought on different weekday:

Mon: 140.6818182
Tue: 122.5833333
Wed: 355.2272727
Thu: 1304.5
Fri: 317.173913
1183  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Potential bug in bitcoin: long-range attacks. on: May 08, 2014, 09:31:52 AM
How about another scenario:

Hash rate A:B = 1:H . A is attacker, B is honest

A wants to outpace the latest X year's blocks. What is the probability for him to succeed in Y years? (A only wants to outpace the latest blocks. For example, with X=1, on 1 Jan 2014, A wants to mine a single block to outpace all the blocks since 1 Jan 2013; on 15 Jan 2014, the target will be the blocks since 15 Jan 2013). I think it's even easier, right?
Yes. The integral is then over the constant function 1/(HX) which gives a result of 1 - Exp (-Y/(HX)).

e.g., for X=1, Y=1, H=4 this gives 22.1%.

As a reminder, these calculations are for the case that everyone's hashrate is fixed. If it grows over time, the numbers will be different (in the attacker's favor).

Let say I have 1% of total hashrate (H=99), and want to outpace 1 day of blocks in 30 days (X=1, Y=30).

The probability is: 1-Exp(-30/99)=26.14%

and 97.5% in 1 year

The cost of this attack is about 1080BTC for 30 days or 13140BTC for 1 year, plus depreciation and electricity. It's expensive but still much cheaper than I thought.
1184  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Why will nodes not relay non-standard txs? on: May 08, 2014, 03:14:15 AM


You make a good point about the multiplication. I thought bugs meant a bug in the multiplication code itself, not malicious usage of it.

How could this not a bug if it allows a attacker to remotely crash all bitcoin nodes in the world?
1185  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Potential bug in bitcoin: long-range attacks. on: May 07, 2014, 04:21:12 PM
I don't think this is really interesting as we won't have infinite time.

Could someone calculate the probability of A outpacing B in T years, given that:

  • The hashrate ratio of A:B = 1:4
  • B started mining 1 year before A

For T = 10^3, 10^6, and 10^9. I bet even with the 10^9 years the probability is still very tiny.
Actually, the probabilities for T = 10^3, 10^6, and 10^9 are 82.2%, 96.8%, 99.4%. Even for T=1 the probability is 15.9%.

I'm assuming of course the simplest case. In general, with a head start of S and a hashrate ratio of 1:H, the chance to succeed in time T is
1 - \exp ( - int_S^{S+T} 1/(Ht) dt )

It sounds really unbelievable for T=1 the probability is 15.9%. To outpace B, A has to outpace the work done in the first year (which the expected time is 4 years), while at the same time B is still working 3 times faster than A.

Would you please present your integration in https://www.wolframalpha.com ? Thanks.
Sure, http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+-+Exp%28-Integrate%281%2F%284+t%29%2C+{t%2C+1%2C+2}%29%29

By the way, I've edited to add the simpler form of this expression, 1 - (1 + T/S) ^ (-1/H).

I parsed your scenario as Attacker:Honest = 1:4 and that the attacker never contributed to the honest network. If instead it's Attacker:Total = 1:4, so Attacker:Honest = 1:3 (but the attacker was honest in the first year), it's even higher, 17.0%.

It's actually quite intuitive. Suppose he tries a weaker strategy of trying throughout the year to find a single huge block that is equal to 2 years of the honest network's work. This is equal to 8 years of the attacker work, so the chance to find such a huge block in a year is 1/8 = 12.5%. But in his actual strategy he spends the first day trying to find a block equal to 1 year, in the second day a block equal to 1.03 years, and so on, so the probability is higher.

Needless to say, if instead of a huge block he tried to find several normal blocks, he would have no chance. The variance then is much lower so he can't luck out.


How about another scenario:

Hash rate A:B = 1:H . A is attacker, B is honest

A wants to outpace the latest X year's blocks. What is the probability for him to succeed in Y years? (A only wants to outpace the latest blocks. For example, with X=1, on 1 Jan 2014, A wants to mine a single block to outpace all the blocks since 1 Jan 2013; on 15 Jan 2014, the target will be the blocks since 15 Jan 2013). I think it's even easier, right?
1186  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 07, 2014, 10:09:42 AM
great things are coming with ripple, why you guys are still in denial ?
Ripple is completely irrelevant to this community. It is a centralized system - nothing to do with cryptocurrencies. It is like saying "great things are coming with Google" - so what?

Ripple is not centralized like many others you still fail to get what it is.
This is totally relevant to this community since it will leverage lower transaction fees, instant money trade ...etc

Ripple is far more powerful than bitcoin whatever you say, A first bank, Fidor, has adopted ripple and it's just the beginning...

It is centralized. He's exactly right.

Please stop quoting him
1187  Local / 中文 (Chinese) / Re: 雪球交易所p2p支付交易5月1日已经上线 欢迎大家提出宝贵意见 on: May 07, 2014, 06:58:29 AM
按淘宝的形式 只会更加降低时效性。 如果你经常上淘宝,会发现 买东西是件非常烦人的事情,,做淘宝卖家久的人,也会发现卖东西也是件非常烦人的事。、、

因为你会花大量的精力在挑选商品和讨价还价上。这就是为什么很多人现在不爱上淘宝 而喜欢京东 亚马逊的原因。

其實就只是兩個參數: 時間和價格, 沒什麼需要挑選

市場自然會決定你的方案是否可行, 我認為沒有太多掛單方會願意不停監視著交易情況.
1188  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Potential bug in bitcoin: long-range attacks. on: May 07, 2014, 06:54:42 AM
I think it's more interesting than you make it out to be. Consider the fact that if you try to reorg the entire blockchain, you have 100% chance to eventually succeed, no matter how low your hashrate (assuming that the ratio between your hashrate and the network's has a positive lower bound).
Indeed, while I was well aware of growth making the historical hashing inconsequential (http://bitcoin.sipa.be/powdays-50k.png) and playing the reorg lottery I hadn't considered that particular possibility before reading that paper (thanks for the link). Though it does require also exponential growth, which is physically senseless in some sufficiently long run. It would probably be interesting to explore the probability distribution with a relaxed form of that assumption.
That's the beauty of it - the result doesn't require exponential growth (though it does help a bit). If the hashrate of attacker and network is fixed to eternity, the attacker still has a chance of 100% to succeed eventually. This is because the harmonic integral diverges (the cumulative PoW increases linearly, so his probability of success each day decreases inversely linearly. The sum of this goes to infinity and this can be translated to 100% probability of success).

A positive lower bound on the hashrate ratio is a sufficient (though not strictly necessary) condition for this guarantee.

I don't think this is really interesting as we won't have infinite time.

Could someone calculate the probability of A outpacing B in T years, given that:

  • The hashrate ratio of A:B = 1:4
  • B started mining 1 year before A

For T = 10^3, 10^6, and 10^9. I bet even with the 10^9 years the probability is still very tiny.
Actually, the probabilities for T = 10^3, 10^6, and 10^9 are 82.2%, 96.8%, 99.4%. Even for T=1 the probability is 15.9%.

I'm assuming of course the simplest case. In general, with a head start of S and a hashrate ratio of 1:H, the chance to succeed in time T is
1 - \exp ( - int_S^{S+T} 1/(Ht) dt )

It sounds really unbelievable for T=1 the probability is 15.9%. To outpace B, A has to outpace the work done in the first year (which the expected time is 4 years), while at the same time B is still working 3 times faster than A.

Would you please present your integration in https://www.wolframalpha.com ? Thanks.
1189  Local / 中文 (Chinese) / Re: 雪球交易所p2p支付交易5月1日已经上线 欢迎大家提出宝贵意见 on: May 07, 2014, 06:41:41 AM
有个问题,是否要把币充值到平台?如果不是,那临时交易岂不是很慢?因为确认时间。
如果是,那和其他平台有什么区别?
收藏,关注,

币需要先充值的,人民币不需要

我们是结合股票交易系统的撮合机制和担保交易系统的结算机制。

比如你买1BTC 有可能是从1个用户手里买 也有可能从2个用户手里买。你不需要去找这2个用户,系统根据价格自动帮你撮合。你直接付款给这2个用户就可以。

那就是說只要有掛單 (無論是買或賣), 都不可以離開電腦超過5分鐘 (還沒算付款或確認所需的時間), 而且任何超過的5分鐘通訊障礙都可能會導致沒收保證金, 那誰會冒這風險掛單?

我们现在是10分钟,已经在开发移动客户端 可以通过移动客户端提交交易号和对交易确认或者拒绝结算。

这个系统目前还是适合即时成交用户,,比如不频繁操作的散户,矿工用户等。

有成交的時候, 你們如何通知掛單客戶? email? 短訊? QQ? 先不說可能有延誤, 也不能期望客戶會不停地檢查吧?

现在是网页端的声音提醒和 手机短信,短信是会有延迟,但我们交易状态的变化 网页端是实时的,不需要去刷新页面(类似微博)

有移动客户端的话,会有消息通知,可以在移动端完成付款和提交。

我们希望大家能提供更好的方案,对买卖双方都公平的方案,而不是质疑。

如果說方案, 我認為掛單客戶可分為兩類: 即時掛單及延後掛單

即時掛單和你們現在的模式一樣

延後掛單的客戶, 可以自設延後處理的時間.

如果是賣單, 掛單客戶需要付出2%保證金, 另把相關bitcoin交付平台保管. 當另一客戶看到認為價格及延後時間合理, 便可以交付2%保證金鎖定掛單, 並在10分鐘內經支付寶付款, 而掛單客戶需要在指定的延後時間內確認.

如果是買單, 考慮到價格波動, 掛單客戶需要付出20%保證金. 當另一客戶看到認為價格及延後時間合理, 便可以交付相關bitcoin+2%保證金鎖定掛單, 而掛單客戶需要在指定的延後時間內經支付寶付款. 基於對等公平原則, 賣方收到RMB後, 需要在相同的延後時間內確認.


你指的用户自定义付款时间和确认时间,这个方案不大可行,我们只能找1个买卖双方都认为合理的时间平衡点。

就好像淘宝买东西,拍下后,买家是有3天时间付款,否则交易关闭。 卖家那考虑到快递因素 ,给买家10天确认收货。补充的做法是他们可以通过旺旺渠道 商量延长确认收货时间

或许也可以通过绑定QQ号的形式,让双方自己协商延长时间。

我看不出為何不可行. 在這系統下, 不需要自動撮合, 而是更像淘寶, 客戶看到掛單, 認為條款合理便可以成交.

QQ也不能解決我的質疑: 掛單方無論如何不能離開電腦或手機超過10分鐘. (如你所說淘寶的時間以天算, 賣方不可能數天都不檢查.)
1190  Local / 中文 (Chinese) / Re: 雪球交易所p2p支付交易5月1日已经上线 欢迎大家提出宝贵意见 on: May 07, 2014, 06:29:53 AM
(我沒有用過你們的服務, 也許你們已實行以下意見)

你們應規定交易必需為0.1BTC的整倍數, 價位必需為1CNY的整倍數, 這可以大大減少凌碎交易的情況

掛單撮合以最優價為第一原則, 以手動操作最小化為第二原則, 完整成交為第三原則, 掛單先後為第四原則. 例如有賣出掛單如下:

A: $400 1.0BTC
B: $410 1.0BTC
C: $410 0.5BTC
D: $410 3.0BTC
E: $410 3.0BTC

其中B, C, D, E是按掛單先後排列, B是最先掛單

如果客戶要買入2.0BTC, 按第一原則會是和A成交1BTC, 並和B成交1.0BTC

如果客戶要買入1.5BTC, 會是和A成交1BTC, 並根據第三原則和C成交0.5BTC (如按第四原則, 應和B成交, 但因為C可以達成完整成交, 所以優先)

如果客戶要買入2.5BTC, 會是和A成交1BTC, 並根據第二原則和D成交1.5BTC, 因為這只需要兩次CNY轉賬. (如按第四原則, 則需要3次轉賬)
1191  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 07, 2014, 06:09:15 AM

PBOC can't kill bitcoin. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I agree with this, but in the short term that which doesn't kill you makes you cheaper.

As you have survived the 2011 great bear market, you are here for long-term, aren't you?
1192  Local / 中文 (Chinese) / Re: 雪球交易所p2p支付交易5月1日已经上线 欢迎大家提出宝贵意见 on: May 07, 2014, 06:00:20 AM
有个问题,是否要把币充值到平台?如果不是,那临时交易岂不是很慢?因为确认时间。
如果是,那和其他平台有什么区别?
收藏,关注,

币需要先充值的,人民币不需要

我们是结合股票交易系统的撮合机制和担保交易系统的结算机制。

比如你买1BTC 有可能是从1个用户手里买 也有可能从2个用户手里买。你不需要去找这2个用户,系统根据价格自动帮你撮合。你直接付款给这2个用户就可以。

那就是說只要有掛單 (無論是買或賣), 都不可以離開電腦超過5分鐘 (還沒算付款或確認所需的時間), 而且任何超過的5分鐘通訊障礙都可能會導致沒收保證金, 那誰會冒這風險掛單?

我们现在是10分钟,已经在开发移动客户端 可以通过移动客户端提交交易号和对交易确认或者拒绝结算。

这个系统目前还是适合即时成交用户,,比如不频繁操作的散户,矿工用户等。

有成交的時候, 你們如何通知掛單客戶? email? 短訊? QQ? 先不說可能有延誤, 也不能期望客戶會不停地檢查吧?

现在是网页端的声音提醒和 手机短信,短信是会有延迟,但我们交易状态的变化 网页端是实时的,不需要去刷新页面(类似微博)

有移动客户端的话,会有消息通知,可以在移动端完成付款和提交。

我们希望大家能提供更好的方案,对买卖双方都公平的方案,而不是质疑。

如果說方案, 我認為掛單客戶可分為兩類: 即時掛單及延後掛單

即時掛單和你們現在的模式一樣

延後掛單的客戶, 可以自設延後處理的時間.

如果是賣單, 掛單客戶需要付出2%保證金, 另把相關bitcoin交付平台保管. 當另一客戶看到認為價格及延後時間合理, 便可以交付2%保證金鎖定掛單, 並在10分鐘內經支付寶付款, 而掛單客戶需要在指定的延後時間內確認.

如果是買單, 考慮到價格波動, 掛單客戶需要付出20%保證金. 當另一客戶看到認為價格及延後時間合理, 便可以交付相關bitcoin+2%保證金鎖定掛單, 而掛單客戶需要在指定的延後時間內經支付寶付款. 基於對等公平原則, 賣方收到RMB後, 需要在相同的延後時間內確認.
1193  Local / 中文 (Chinese) / Re: 雪球交易所p2p支付交易5月1日已经上线 欢迎大家提出宝贵意见 on: May 07, 2014, 05:30:07 AM
有个问题,是否要把币充值到平台?如果不是,那临时交易岂不是很慢?因为确认时间。
如果是,那和其他平台有什么区别?
收藏,关注,

币需要先充值的,人民币不需要

我们是结合股票交易系统的撮合机制和担保交易系统的结算机制。

比如你买1BTC 有可能是从1个用户手里买 也有可能从2个用户手里买。你不需要去找这2个用户,系统根据价格自动帮你撮合。你直接付款给这2个用户就可以。

那就是說只要有掛單 (無論是買或賣), 都不可以離開電腦超過5分鐘 (還沒算付款或確認所需的時間), 而且任何超過的5分鐘通訊障礙都可能會導致沒收保證金, 那誰會冒這風險掛單?

我们现在是10分钟,已经在开发移动客户端 可以通过移动客户端提交交易号和对交易确认或者拒绝结算。

这个系统目前还是适合即时成交用户,,比如不频繁操作的散户,矿工用户等。

有成交的時候, 你們如何通知掛單客戶? email? 短訊? QQ? 先不說可能有延誤, 也不能期望客戶會不停地檢查吧?
1194  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 07, 2014, 04:51:50 AM

The PBOC ban will catalyze the technological innovation in decentralized exchanges.

Buyer will directly transfer fiat to the seller through online banking. With some cryptography the auditor could verify the bank transaction without knowing the online banking password of the payer or payee. This is not only theoretical. The actual development is in progress. Read more at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=173220.msg6160307#msg6160307

PBOC can't kill bitcoin. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
1195  Local / 中文 (Chinese) / Re: 雪球交易所p2p支付交易5月1日已经上线 欢迎大家提出宝贵意见 on: May 07, 2014, 04:32:36 AM
有个问题,是否要把币充值到平台?如果不是,那临时交易岂不是很慢?因为确认时间。
如果是,那和其他平台有什么区别?
收藏,关注,

币需要先充值的,人民币不需要

我们是结合股票交易系统的撮合机制和担保交易系统的结算机制。

比如你买1BTC 有可能是从1个用户手里买 也有可能从2个用户手里买。你不需要去找这2个用户,系统根据价格自动帮你撮合。你直接付款给这2个用户就可以。

那就是說只要有掛單 (無論是買或賣), 都不可以離開電腦超過5分鐘 (還沒算付款或確認所需的時間), 而且任何超過的5分鐘通訊障礙都可能會導致沒收保證金, 那誰會冒這風險掛單?
1196  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Potential bug in bitcoin: long-range attacks. on: May 07, 2014, 04:17:14 AM
I think it's more interesting than you make it out to be. Consider the fact that if you try to reorg the entire blockchain, you have 100% chance to eventually succeed, no matter how low your hashrate (assuming that the ratio between your hashrate and the network's has a positive lower bound).
Indeed, while I was well aware of growth making the historical hashing inconsequential (http://bitcoin.sipa.be/powdays-50k.png) and playing the reorg lottery I hadn't considered that particular possibility before reading that paper (thanks for the link). Though it does require also exponential growth, which is physically senseless in some sufficiently long run. It would probably be interesting to explore the probability distribution with a relaxed form of that assumption.
That's the beauty of it - the result doesn't require exponential growth (though it does help a bit). If the hashrate of attacker and network is fixed to eternity, the attacker still has a chance of 100% to succeed eventually. This is because the harmonic integral diverges (the cumulative PoW increases linearly, so his probability of success each day decreases inversely linearly. The sum of this goes to infinity and this can be translated to 100% probability of success).

A positive lower bound on the hashrate ratio is a sufficient (though not strictly necessary) condition for this guarantee.

I don't think this is really interesting as we won't have infinite time.

Could someone calculate the probability of A outpacing B in T years, given that:

  • The hashrate ratio of A:B = 1:4
  • B started mining 1 year before A

For T = 10^3, 10^6, and 10^9. I bet even with the 10^9 years the probability is still very tiny.

1197  Local / 中文 (Chinese) / Re: 雪球交易所p2p支付交易5月1日已经上线 欢迎大家提出宝贵意见 on: May 07, 2014, 02:42:28 AM
如果沒人違規,你們賺什麼?

我们当然希望没人违规,

交易正常就是应该靠交易手续费生存发展,而不是靠免费吸引用户 背地用见不得人的手段去盈利,最终受害的是散户

看看目前的局面 难道和各交易所的所做所为没有关系吗?

但你們也不收手續費, 賺什麼?
1198  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Potential bug in bitcoin: long-range attacks. on: May 07, 2014, 02:23:59 AM
The fact that such an obvious and simple attack has never happened suggests it can't happen. Shouldn't you realize that?
Well, take care there— lots of things are busted without ever being noticed.

Yes, such as the OP_RETURN bug and the negative balance bug. The one suggested by OP, however, is too obvious comparing with the said ones.
1199  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Potential bug in bitcoin: long-range attacks. on: May 06, 2014, 02:43:03 PM
This isn't a bug because chains are selected in terms of cumulative difficulty not length of chain. Very quickly a node can distinguish the real chain from the fakes.

Then it is even easier to perform this attack, in theory.
All you would have to do is create a whole bunch of low-difficulty blocks with nearly the same timestamp, then after the "difficulty adjustment" in your branch of the blockchain would result in a super large difficulty. Solve that one block and the blockchain is broken.

Note cumulative, not last.

He's talking about cumulative, but that's irrelevant. The expected work required for that "super large difficulty block*" equals to the cumulative work of all blocks in the past 5 years

(*ignoring the 4x adjustment rule)
1200  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Potential bug in bitcoin: long-range attacks. on: May 06, 2014, 04:09:25 AM
Where can one get a terrahashcomputer
https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage-new-products/1-th-bitcoin-miner.html

This isn't a bug because chains are selected in terms of cumulative difficulty not length of chain. Very quickly a node can distinguish the real chain from the fakes.
Aha! This was the information that I wanted. Thank you.

The fact that such an obvious and simple attack has never happened suggests it can't happen. Shouldn't you realize that?
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