Thanks, but I still don't get it. Do you mean "is not upgradable except as a hard-fork everybody accepts at the same time"? Yes |
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Strong as "ever"? You mean, over $1,100? Don't fall for the speculation! Gold had a bump thanks to World War III worries and Bitcoin followed for whatever reason plus some whales got scared that they won't be able to buy back the bitcoins they sold 1-2 weeks ago. Price is not the only indicator to measure the strength of bitcoin |
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Oh, not this again please. This pattern has been repeating since it was $1. Also something that I forgot to mention, this does fit a bubble. And as always, Don't let me or others users make a decision for you, its your money.Bubble Pattern |
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Updates  ? 150 on 28th Feb. I guess we may see something really interesting in the coming days |
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I don't understand why the hell they still had money on gox. Idiots! The warning signs were there for an entire year - gox was the biggest running joke in the whole community.
Gox is a money prison. Somebody must hold the bag and that would not be Mark |
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I feel bad for the people who lost money on gox too. However... I don't understand why the hell they still had money on gox. Idiots! The warning signs were there for an entire year - gox was the biggest running joke in the whole community. It's kind of like how I feel bad for a chain smoker who died of cancer.
To be honest, just hours before gox closed, I was so tempted to buy on bitcoinbuilder @0.19. I didn't do it. But whenever I think about that I had such an idea, I feel so scary. People may speculate, but NEVER gamble, NEVER. |
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You do understand you will never convince miners to erase 3,000 blocks of the blockchain however if you did, then Bitcoin is done. Remember over those 3,000 blocks, newly mined coins have been involved in transactions and this action would double spend all of those. The coins originally minted would never exist and thus the coins spent wouldn't. Merchants, other users, exchanges would all see the downstream transactions (which have 6 ro 3,000+ confirmations) suddenly go unconfirmed and invalid.
While this in theory could be done at any time it is generally accepted to be impossible. If miners by decree can double spend transaction not 1 or 2 confirmations into the blockchain but 3,000 blocks deep then no receiver can ever be sure that the transaction is irreversible. There is a certain level of faith in all currencies that create the perception of value, and Bitcoin is no exception. Among those faiths, Bitcoin users believe that while it is possible in theory to 51% the network and undo transactions thousands of blocks deep, that it would have such an economic cost that it infeasible. All users accept this faith or they wouldn't be using bitcoin (or would require 10,000+ confirmations before concluding the transaction). Your proposed action (although I think it has no chance) if successful would break that faith. Without faith in the irreversibility of transactions, there is no value or utility to Bitcoin. Bitcoin would be dead. I am not talking the exchange rate goes down a bit and recovers, I mean completely abandoned as a worthless experiment and development moves on to future systems which don't have the vulnerability (likely some floating checkpoint system which acts as a check to the proof of work).
How do you use a currency that at any time could simply be "undone" and erased from your wallet by the actions of a third party? Would you use that currency? I know I wouldn't. I genuinely feel sorry for those who lost significant amounts of money by misplacing their trust in MtGox but this is a situation where the cure is worse than the disease.
Great post! On the other hand it'd be great to have a way to "invalidate" the stolen coins, that would only affect the thief that could not spend the coins anymore... All the other coins would increase in value, so that's good for the community as a whole, even if it does not repay the people whom the coins were stolen from. This invalidation/block could be optional of course. I think if something like this could work, it would also reduce the potential issues in the future. How to judge and who will judge? The court? Then why don't you simply use fiat? |
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If they started using their customers money for anything other than customer transactions for the customer whose money it is , then that is co-mingling of funds, which is a breach of fiduciary duty.
Undoubtedly there is something criminal otherwise one couldn't have lost 20M USD. |
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Lose >99% BTC
Lose >40% fiat
Lose database along with customer identity data
Well, Emptygox couldn't possibly have done a much worse job than this.
The statement is a joke. How come they did not realize until a few days ago that there was a huge discrepancy between the money they were holding in their bank and the money deposited by their customers? You all know this is BS and simply cannot happen. They knew very well they had less than they were supposed to, they just decided to run on fractional reserve and spent customers money to cover their own operational expenses. I wouldn't be surprised if Karpeles even cashed out dividends at some point while knowing the company was virtually bankrupt. He doesn't need dividend. Just by insider trading and arbitraging he would have earned a lot. |
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Lose >99% BTC
Lose >40% fiat
Lose database along with customer identity data
Well, Emptygox couldn't possibly have done a much worse job than this.
How could they lose fiat? I understand they lost BTC due to transaction error, but fiat? Did they have database unencrypted? They may have used client's fiat to buy bitcoin or speculate. They don't care the hole in fiat anyway, as they could blame their bank / DHS / CoinLab |
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If this theory is correct, there must be some significant transactions around that 2011 hack. Could you identify it on the blockchain?
There's no smoking gun, but there's enough output volume to conceal ~1,000,000 BTC. Here's a graph of the data for June 2011 constructed from data I just pulled from blockchain.info. Note that I'm not sure re time zones, so look at the 18, 19, and 20th when thinking about what happened at the time of the hack. Also note this is a log scale so that both curves are readable.  Remember that total output volume is 100% accurate, but blockchain.info's estimated transaction volume depends on an algorithm that attempts to identify change and may thus be unreliable. If I were the thief, I would try to transfer the money out very quickly, as I'd like to finish it before Mark discovered. Therefore, there must be a few very big transactions if you were correct. |
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If this theory is correct, there must be some significant transactions around that 2011 hack. Could you identify it on the blockchain?
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So they lost 2.8B JPY = 26M USD, PLUS 750000BTC. That's totally fucked up and completely hopeless ANNOUNCEMENT REGARDING AN APPLICATION FOR COMMENCEMENT OF A PROCEDURE OF CIVIL REHABILITATION
MtGox Co., Ltd. made today an application for commencement of a procedure of civil rehabilitation (minji saisei) at the Tokyo District Court. This application was accepted on the same day. Further, MtGox Co., Ltd is under several orders issued by the Court : a preservative order prohibiting it from paying its debts, transferring its assets or establishing security over its assets, an order establishing a comprehensive prohibition of forced attachment of its assets by its creditors and a supervisory order ordering supervision by a supervisory committee. In consequence, MtGox hereby informs you as follows.
We first express our most sincere regrets and apologies for this situation and for causing so much inconvenience to all our users and other interested parties. We will fully respect the above orders and maintain our assets with all the necessary care.
Financial situation, reasons and timeline leading to this application
(1) As of now, the liabilities of MtGox Co., Ltd exceed its assets and its financial situation is as follows:
Total amount of assets 3,841,866,163
Total amount of current liabilities 6,501,119,371
(2) The increase of current liabilities may be linked to a loss of bitcoins and customer funds. These are now investigated by an expert and all efforts are made to discover the truth. This application was prompted by the following troubles:
At the start of February 2014, illegal access through the abuse of a bug in the bitcoin system resulted in an increase in incomplete bitcoin transfer transactions and we discovered that there was a possibility that bitcoins had been illicitly moved through the abuse of this bug.
As a result of our internal investigation, we found that a large amount of bitcoins had disappeared. Although the complete extent is not yet known, we found that approximately 750,000 bitcoins deposited by users and approximately 100,000 bitcoins belonging to us had disappeared.
We believe that there is a high probability that these bitcoins were stolen as a result of an abuse of this bug and we have asked an expert to look at the possibility of a criminal complaint and undertake proper procedures.
On the same day (24th), we found out large discrepancies between the amount of cash held in financial institutions and the amount deposited from our users. The amounts are still under investigation and may vary but they approximate JPY 2.8 billion.
We are investigating the causes of these problems. Since there are probably a variety of causes including hacking by third parties, we need to investigate a huge amount of transaction reports in order to establish the truth. As of this date, we cannot confirm the exact amount of missing deposit funds and the total amount of bitcoins which disappeared.
Once we discovered that bitcoins had disappeared and the discrepancies between cash funds and deposit balances, we judged that it would be difficult to continue our activities normally and we therefore closed our site at noon on the 25th (Japan time).
(3) Regarding the filing of a complaint or damages report, an expert has been mandated and investigations have started. We will make all efforts to ensure that crimes are punished and damages recovered.
Further we will fully cooperate with inquiries from authorities and investigations related to this matter, in Japan or overseas.
In order to increase repayments to our creditors, it is necessary to explore the possibility of having MtGox Co., Ltd. continue its business. This is why the civil rehabilitation procedure has been chosen, Rebuilding MtGox Co., Ltd under the supervision of the court in a legally organized procedure while giving proper explanations will not be for the sole benefit of the company but for that of the whole bitcoin community.
All efforts will now be made to restore the business and recover damages to repay debts to creditors. We hope for the understanding and cooperation of all.
Outline of the application
(1) Application date February 28, 2014
(2) Jurisdiction Tokyo District Court
(3) Counsel of applicant
Baker & McKenzie (Gaikokuho Joint Enterprise)
Attorney-at-law Junko Suetomi
Attorney-at-law Yamamoto Hideyuki
Yodoyabashi & Yamagami Legal Professional Corporation
Attorney-at-law Akio Shinomiya
Attorney-at-law Kazumasa Kawai
(4) Supervisor Nagashima Ohno & Tsunematsu
Attorney-at-law Nobuaki Kobayashi
(5) Investigator idem
(6) Case no. 2014 (sai) 12Civil rehabilitation commencement application
Contact information
A call center has been established to respond to all inquiries. The call center is planned to start on March 3, 2014. All inquiries to MtGox Co., Ltd. should be made to the following telephone number:
Telephone number +81 3-4588-3921
Working hours Monday to Friday 10am to 5pm (Japan time)
Please refrain from contacting the office of the supervisor/investigator.
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how is 850k of 12+million of existing coins is a 40% "market cap"? it looks to me less than 10% and less than 5% of all 21 million coins
No fork and no Bitcoin Code Authority please !
Bitcoin is Bitcoin not Gox-coin !
Maybe you say that because you think that 850,000btc is not so relevant. What would you say if BitStamp, BTC-E, Coinbase, and Huobi get hacked or "gaged"? Let's say that now 40% of all coins are owned by one single hacker, would you fork? How do you know that's really a hack? What if MK sold 850k bitcoins to a mega whale for cash, gold bars, and litecoin? Now MK claims it was a hack. So you want to rob the mega whale to pay for your stupidity in trusting MK? |
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Good news. There is an online wallet currently implementing the scheme. They should announce it shortly.
To be honest I see no reason to use an aggregated online wallet. It's like a bank without interest and insurance. It makes no sense. For online wallet what we need is a 2-of-3 multisig scheme. With the online wallet operator holding 1 hot key, the user hold 1 hot key and 1 cold key. So the fund is safe as long as the user hot key and the operator hot key are not hacked at the same time, which is pretty low chance. You scheme is more applicable for service really requiring exclusive possession of the coins, such as an currency exchanges. |
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So what you lot going to call this new fork? Obviously you can't call it Bitcoin, as Bitcoin's transactions are irreversible, which is why we trust it, hence giving it value.
Call it goxcoin or bailout coin, and will be traded on bitcoinbuilder.com |
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I don't understand your point. Obviously when I said "demand" I was referring to the bids in the order books.
If the bad actor sells only 10% of its loot in BitStamp the price would go to $1. The point is that you are wrong and the price would not go to $1. Not even close. First, there are a lot of orders, a lot of large orders, that are not listed in the public order books that you are using. Second, many people have large sums of USD and other currencies at the exchanges that are not currently committed to orders, it is just sitting there not in the order book. I personally, and many others, have a large stash of cash at the exchanges just waiting for a meltdown. In the case of a meltdown we jump in and buy from all the panic sellers. You cannot use the order book to make any realistic assumptions about where the price would go in a large sell off so please stop trying. And even the price is going to $1, this is not a reason to fork. |
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I just wish these folks who start all these "let's fork the blockchain because ______" threads would stop talking about forking for their favorite reason du jour and just get off their ass and do it.
I for one can't wait to cash in all the alt coins created for me and buy real Bitcoins with the proceeds.
I have a suspicion that the reason that it is always just a bunch of hot air and no on every actually does it is because all these "fork the chain" folks know that their alt forks are doomed out of the gate and it would be a total waste of their time to even try it.
Yes, those who want to fork please do it yourself, and convince miners, investors, and merchants to accept your bailout coin. |
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I am quite new to this game and have begun mining alts late Oct 13.
These are some of the points I have found frustrating when dealing with bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies.
1). The exchanges appear to be unregulated and trusting them can lead to a load of heartache (Read MtGox here).
2). Time taken to send bitcoins to these exchanges (with confirmations) can be rather lengthy and this may lead to missing any good buy/sell windows.
With these 2 issues in mind, can anyone see a way round them so that you can leave coins on exchanges safely? Or at least speed up the transaction?
I would prefer to be able to leave coins and fiat on trusted exchanges so that I can set up buy and sell orders but I am absolutely paranoid about doing so since this MtGox debacle.
It would seem to me that until people feel safe trusting their money (be it coins or fiat) to these exchanges then this must be really stifling the growth of cryptocurrencies.
Mac.
Actually this dilemma can be perfectly solved by mutli-sig transaction. The function is available in the bitcoin protocol back 2009, but no one is really using it. EDIT: What I mean is that, with multi-sig transaction, you have a safety level of cold wallet AND the ability to sell instantly |
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