Why do Atheists Hate Religion?

[af_newbie]

In your world, free will might be an illusion based on your grandiose God Delusion (GGD).

In the real world, unknowns remain unknowns until they become knowns. And there is no such thing as God entity 'painting his work of art'.

There is no free will, things are either determined by the physical laws (neurons firing in your brain) or non-deterministic randomness outside of our control.  Both cases push the concept of free will into notbatman's la-la-land.

We disagree so strongly on every single issue because of of your delusion.  Let’s call it your grandiose nihilistic delusion (GND).

In your world life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value, morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are arbitrarily contrived. Human or even the entire human species is essentially insignificant, without purpose and of no importance in the totality of existence.

http://www.arasite.org/WL3/nietnihil.html#_ftn1

It is the continued destruction of all meaning and signification. It is the belief that nothing really matters any more, because nothing really has any meaning. We have no system of beliefs or values which could orientate us. The old systems of belief, like religion and morality, still exist, but at best we only follow them half-heartedly, and at worst, think that they have no meaning whatsoever.  They exist only the edges of our lives and consciousnesses. But it isn’t just the world that doesn’t have any meaning anymore. We ourselves don’t have any meaning to ourselves. Why should we choice one course of action over the other? What does it really matter anymore, since no-one’s individual life really has any significance in the grand scheme of things...

Nothing is worth much anymore, everything comes down to the same thing, everything is equalized. Everything is the same and equivalent: the true and the false, the good and the bad. Everything is outdated, used up, old dilapidated, dying: an undefined agony of meaning, an unending twilight: not a definite annihilation of significations, but their indefinite collapse.

By rejecting intrinsic value as you do, your are not abandoning the quest for value but certifying the absence of value. What is the antithesis of nihilism? It is faith.

Faith holds that life has inherent meaning. It proclaims that there is an objective status for ethical ideals grounded in the very bedrock of creation. It teaches that man is created "in the image of God," and therefore has inherent dignity and immense value. It offers mankind a purpose in this universe.

Faith demands we not accept the world as it is. Faith provides an ideal and asks us for ethical perfection. It is a goal we fall far short of a world to strive for. Your nihilism provides none of these things for at its heart it is a philosophy of emptiness.

Free will may be an illusion so might time and indeed the entire universe as we perceive it. These possibilities, however, are irrelevant. We have the freedom to express who and what we are by living life. Who and what we are is ultimately determined by what we ‘choose’ to be. Maybe there is some higher order perspective that is capable of knowing the entire structure of our neuronal wiring or is not limited by time as we are and capable of knowing with certainty what our future choices will be. Even in that scenario we are still ‘free’ in the sense that we shout out to the universe what we fundamentally are via our lived lives.

In your world the murderer had no choice on his actions he was compelled to kill by his neuronal wiring the killer is a victim compelled by cause and effect. In my world the murderer made a conscious choice to commit a horrific evil and informed us of who and what he is.

We will not agree because our world views are fundamentally incompatible. We will have to leave it to the readers to ‘choose’ which of our two world views they believe true.

In your example, the murderer does not live in a vacuum.  His thoughts (neurons firing in his brain) are the result of what has happened in his life and/or around him at the moment he is making his decision.  The 'choices' that his mind produces are the result of causality that preceded his thoughts.  The conscience itself is an effect, not the cause.

As for your babbling about nihilism, well, you just proved my point.  You are a God-obsessed, delusional individual who thinks that every materialist is a nihilist.
 

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[CoinCube]

...
You are a God-obsessed, delusional individual who thinks that every materialist is a nihilist.

No not every materialist just you.

[af_newbie]

...
You are a God-obsessed, delusional individual who thinks that every materialist is a nihilist.

No not every materialist just you.

LOL. 

ok, you 'win'.  Take your medication NOW.

[Astargath]

...
You are a God-obsessed, delusional individual who thinks that every materialist is a nihilist.

No not every materialist just you.

You often resort to calling people nihilistic. However not believing in anything doesn't make you a nihilist, my point of view is simply that I don't know, I don't know if there is a purpose or an afterlife, they could exist, we don't know, that's not nihilism, that's realism.

God logically makes no sense and your argument was already debunked by the fact that it uses Godel's theorem wrongly.

[CoinCube]

You often resort to calling people nihilistic. However not believing in anything doesn't make you a nihilist, my point of view is simply that I don't know, I don't know if there is a purpose or an afterlife, they could exist, we don't know, that's not nihilism, that's realism.

God logically makes no sense and your argument was already debunked by the fact that it uses Godel's theorem wrongly.

Only when they are. We should always call things for what they are. Calling someone a nihilist is not an insult just a descriptions of belief. I have never said you were a nihilist for example. I don't really know what your beliefs are other then not Christian.

Af_newbie, on the other hand has more or less stated his agreement with the nihilist worldview. In the course of our multiple discussions we have gone over all of the various postulates of nihilism and as far as I can tell he agrees with all of them. Thus I think it's fair to call him a nihilist just as it is fair to call me a theist.

If I have misjudged him he is welcome to tell me so and outline which principle of nihilism he believes to be false and why. Readers can look at our contrasting worldviews Nihilism vs Theism and decide for themselves.
 
You dislike my argument because you don't like the way it used Godel's theorem. I have no problem with that. I disagree and think the way I used it is sound but at least we have isolated the point of divergence. Others can look at that branch and decide for themselves.

[af_newbie]

You often resort to calling people nihilistic. However not believing in anything doesn't make you a nihilist, my point of view is simply that I don't know, I don't know if there is a purpose or an afterlife, they could exist, we don't know, that's not nihilism, that's realism.

God logically makes no sense and your argument was already debunked by the fact that it uses Godel's theorem wrongly.

Only when they are. We should always call things for what they are. Calling someone a nihilist is not an insult just a descriptions of belief. I have never said you were a nihilist for example. I don't really know what your beliefs are other then not Christian.

Af_newbie, on the other hand has more or less stated his agreement with the nihilist worldview. In the course of our multiple discussions we have gone over all of the various postulates of nihilism and as far as I can tell he agrees with all of them. Thus I think it's fair to call him a nihilist just as it is fair to call me a theist.

If I have misjudged him he is welcome to tell me so and outline which principle of nihilism he believes to be false and why. Readers can look at our contrasting worldviews Nihilism vs Theism and decide for themselves.
 
You dislike my argument because you don't like the way it used Godel's theorem. I have no problem with that. I disagree and think the way I used it is sound but at least we have isolated the point of divergence. Others can look at that branch and decide for themselves.

When did I say that our life has no meaning or purpose?

When did I say that human life is worthless?

[BADecker]

^^^ When you said that there is nothing after death.     

[Astargath]

^^^ When you said that there is nothing after death.     

Something after death doesn't necessarily give life a purpose or meaning, in fact the bible gives no meaning after death. You go to heaven and then what? What's your purpose there then? Living forever doing what? You could live forever here too, that's not a meaning or purpose.

[BADecker]

^^^ Having great joy in the presence of God. God whipped the universe together in 6 days. We can barely fly above the ground. Think of how wonderful it is going to be in joy in God's presence, where we have a perfect union with Him.

We are God's children. He says it all over the Bible. Think of how wonderful and great it will be when we grow up into God!... even though it will take all eternity to do so.

[CoinCube]

When did I say that our life has no meaning or purpose?

When did I say that human life is worthless?

Not those exact words but similar ones perhaps?

The life on Earth is not special

The purpose of life is to survive and reproduce  

You are a good person if you follow the moral code that your society accepts.  

Here is a thought experiment for you af_newbie. Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.
Standing triumphant over the hundreds of million dead with the whole world in submission how would you judge the Nazi executioners who led the innocent to their doom in the name of racial superiority and suppression of dissent. Would they suddenly become good men according to you? After all they are only following the code that society now accepts. Those who opposed them no longer live. Or would they be evil men who triumphed and in process dragged the world into darkness and evil.

The answer to the question matters a great deal. I judge them evil men despite their victory and despite the fact that they follow the new "moral code" of society would you?

 

[Johnzky]

Because thats the way they are raised or some being encouraged by friends

But there also some of them whos being encouraged from schools.but for me it doesnt matter what religion OR BEING none religious like atheist,the important thing is we don’t do bad things to othrs or in the world

[Astargath]

When did I say that our life has no meaning or purpose?

When did I say that human life is worthless?

Not those exact words but similar ones perhaps?

The life on Earth is not special

The purpose of life is to survive and reproduce  

You are a good person if you follow the moral code that your society accepts.  

Here is a thought experiment for you af_newbie. Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.
Standing triumphant over the hundreds of million dead with the whole world in submission how would you judge the Nazi executioners who led the innocent to their doom in the name of racial superiority and suppression of dissent. Would they suddenly become good men according to you? After all they are only following the code that society now accepts. Those who opposed them no longer live. Or would they be evil men who triumphed and in process dragged the world into darkness and evil.

The answer to the question matters a great deal. I judge them evil men despite their victory and despite the fact that they follow the new "moral code" of society would you?

 

''Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.'' Kind of like god and the bible? You know, unless you believe in God you go to hell, etc etc?

[BADecker]

''Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.'' Kind of like god and the bible? You know, unless you believe in God you go to hell, etc etc?

Going to Hell has to do with rejection of God.

There are two places where people can exist:
1. With God in Heaven, if God takes them there;
2. In this universe as long as it exists, because people are part of this universe.

Why will God take some people to Heaven, but let others remain in this universe? Because God is pulling Himself out of this universe to be obedient to the people who freely reject Him. But He is graciously taking those people with Him who want to remain with Him.

How long will it take this universe to be destroyed once the actual substance of its destruction starts? An eternity of time. God and Heaven are outside-of/way-beyond even the eternity and time of this universe.

The differences between Hitler and God are great. The similarity you suggest doesn't exist. Hitler destroyed those who were against his ideology against their will. God simply removes Himself from people who reject Him according to their rejection request.

Hitler wanted people he killed to die. God did the absolute best that could be done to save people alive.

Because of the way the universe was constructed, God willingly obeyed the request of the people who reject Him. He doesn't kill them. He simply leaves them where they are, as they request. If they can keep themselves alive, great. Let them do it.

In fact, God does more than simply leaving the people as they request. He fixes their request for life. He gives them eternal life. As God leaves this universe, it turns into a lake of fire, so to speak, because He is no longer here to maintain it. It dissolves, even though the completion of the dissolution will take an eternity. And the people who don't want God around any longer, are kept alive - just as they requested - in the churning of eternal destruction... the lake of fire talked about in the Bible.

Wake up and turn to God before you are stuck forever in the lake of fire... the destruction of this universe.

[BADecker]

Because thats the way they are raised or some being encouraged by friends

But there also some of them whos being encouraged from schools.but for me it doesnt matter what religion OR BEING none religious like atheist,the important thing is we don’t do bad things to othrs or in the world

Imagine that your parents were very guilty feeling. They felt that they were completely unworthy and guilty of everything. Their response to their feelings of guilt and unworthiness was self flagellation on a regular basis. And they taught you the same. And you did this freely throughout your childhood.

Does this mean that once you grow up, that you can't change?

[af_newbie]

When did I say that our life has no meaning or purpose?

When did I say that human life is worthless?

Not those exact words but similar ones perhaps?

The life on Earth is not special

The purpose of life is to survive and reproduce  

You are a good person if you follow the moral code that your society accepts.  

Here is a thought experiment for you af_newbie. Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.
Standing triumphant over the hundreds of million dead with the whole world in submission how would you judge the Nazi executioners who led the innocent to their doom in the name of racial superiority and suppression of dissent. Would they suddenly become good men according to you? After all they are only following the code that society now accepts. Those who opposed them no longer live. Or would they be evil men who triumphed and in process dragged the world into darkness and evil.

The answer to the question matters a great deal. I judge them evil men despite their victory and despite the fact that they follow the new "moral code" of society would you?

You truncated my sentence about life on Earth. (I said: "The life on Earth is not special, there is probably life elsewhere in the universe. ")

There is a non-zero chance (see Drake eq.) that there is life elsewhere in the universe.  How does this make me a nihilist?  Do you even understand what the term means?

As for the hypothetical situation about the Nazis, I am afraid I would not be able to experience this as I would be killed opposing their supremacist ideology. Just like I am opposing Islamist and Christian supremacist ideologies today.  I guess you do not even know German history.  How many Germans died opposing Hitler?  So stop fabricating this notion that all Germans supported Nazism.  I would probably end up like August Landmesser:



Like I said before, the world is in constant change, laws change as we learn more about animal/human psychology and biology.  

If you had to put a label on me, call me a materialist humanist, moral relativist but nihilist?  

Fuck, I value life (including human) more than you ever will, you deluded, sadistic prick.  I know we have ONE, fucking life to live, so it is more precious to me than you.  To you, this life means shit, as you look forward to 'unite' with your imaginary friend after you die and decompose.

You can fantasize all you want about your holy trinity (or whatever irrational entities you desire), but it will not change the fact that we were not created by some imaginary entity from dirt 6000 years ago, the entity that is more concerned with the sex life of one species of primates, than anything else.

Where is the bitcoin ECDSA algorithm described in the Bible?  Nowhere?  So just shut the fuck up about your Christian cult, Bronze Age, 'moral' values.

Ask your imaginary friend to post here.  If he does not respond, take the Bible and wipe your ass with it.

[BADecker]

There is a non-zero chance (see Drake eq.) that there is life elsewhere in the universe.  How does this make me a nihilist?  Do you even understand what the term means? - Bit you see what you just did, don't you? Non-zero means exactly squat when you show the odds. Quantum Mechanics is about the odds, not the possibility or impossibility. The odds against life elsewhere are so great that the improbability makes it realistically impossible... at least in any way that we can figure out without God. Even life on earth is impossible in any way we can figure out... without God.

As for the hypothetical situation about the Nazis, I am afraid I would not be able to experience this as I would be killed opposing their supremacist ideology. Just like I am opposing Islamist and Christian supremacist ideologies.  I guess you do not even know German history.  How many Germans died opposing Hitler?  So stop fabricating this notion that all Germans supported Nazism. - Atheism and its like are religions and ideologies that have been around for thousands of years. So, what's the point? You believe your religion/ideology just like others believe theirs... even to the point of having a non-religion religion.

Like I said before, the world is in constant change, laws change as we learn more about animal/human psychology and biology.   - The changes come about from atheistic sciences... kids being born without arms and legs more than ever in the past. It's called medicine, and vaccination.

If you had to put a label on me, call me a materialist humanist, moral relativist but nihilist?  

Fuck, I value life (including human) more than you ever will, you deluded, sadistic prick.  I know we have ONE, fucking life to live, so it is more precious to me than you.  To you, this life means shit, as you look forward to 'unite' with your imaginary friend after you die and decompose. - If you valued life, you'd turn and save yours for eternal life in Heaven.

You can fantasize all you want about your holy trinity (or whatever irrational entities you desire), but it will not change the fact that we were not created by some imaginary entity from dirt 6000 years ago, the entity that is more concerned with the sex life of one species of primates, than anything else. - We can barely date pottery that goes back less than 5,000 years. And you think that our dating of nature can correctly conceive of the multitudes of past potential happenings that can throw off our calculations? You have a religious cult in the idea of billions of years of universe existence.

Where is the bitcoin ECDSA algorithm described in the Bible?  Nowhere?  So just shut the fuck up about your Christian cult, Bronze Age, 'moral' values. - Were you mentioned in the Bible? Indirectly, just like everything else that exists.

Ask your imaginary friend to post here.  If he does not respond, take the Bible and wipe your ass with it.

As for ass-wiping, wasn't that what he was doing when he responded to you?

God answered you in the Bible long before you asked. It's your fault if you don't accept the answers.

[af_newbie]

There is a non-zero chance (see Drake eq.) that there is life elsewhere in the universe.  How does this make me a nihilist?  Do you even understand what the term means? - Bit you see what you just did, don't you? Non-zero means exactly squat when you show the odds. Quantum Mechanics is about the odds, not the possibility or impossibility. The odds against life elsewhere are so great that the improbability makes it realistically impossible... at least in any way that we can figure out without God. Even life on earth is impossible in any way we can figure out... without God.

As for the hypothetical situation about the Nazis, I am afraid I would not be able to experience this as I would be killed opposing their supremacist ideology. Just like I am opposing Islamist and Christian supremacist ideologies.  I guess you do not even know German history.  How many Germans died opposing Hitler?  So stop fabricating this notion that all Germans supported Nazism. - Atheism and its like are religions and ideologies that have been around for thousands of years. So, what's the point? You believe your religion/ideology just like others believe theirs... even to the point of having a non-religion religion.

Like I said before, the world is in constant change, laws change as we learn more about animal/human psychology and biology.   - The changes come about from atheistic sciences... kids being born without arms and legs more than ever in the past. It's called medicine, and vaccination.

If you had to put a label on me, call me a materialist humanist, moral relativist but nihilist?  

Fuck, I value life (including human) more than you ever will, you deluded, sadistic prick.  I know we have ONE, fucking life to live, so it is more precious to me than you.  To you, this life means shit, as you look forward to 'unite' with your imaginary friend after you die and decompose. - If you valued life, you'd turn and save yours for eternal life in Heaven.

You can fantasize all you want about your holy trinity (or whatever irrational entities you desire), but it will not change the fact that we were not created by some imaginary entity from dirt 6000 years ago, the entity that is more concerned with the sex life of one species of primates, than anything else. - We can barely date pottery that goes back less than 5,000 years. And you think that our dating of nature can correctly conceive of the multitudes of past potential happenings that can throw off our calculations? You have a religious cult in the idea of billions of years of universe existence.

Where is the bitcoin ECDSA algorithm described in the Bible?  Nowhere?  So just shut the fuck up about your Christian cult, Bronze Age, 'moral' values. - Were you mentioned in the Bible? Indirectly, just like everything else that exists.

Ask your imaginary friend to post here.  If he does not respond, take the Bible and wipe your ass with it.

As for ass-wiping, wasn't that what he was doing when he responded to you?

God answered you in the Bible long before you asked. It's your fault if you don't accept the answers.

God answered?  WFT are you talking about?  Bible is an incoherent bunch of nonsense.  What God are you talking about?  45+ authors over the course of 2500+ years.  Are you serious?  There is nothing to discuss.

I am appalled by the sheer stupidity of the religious apologetics.

[BADecker]

^^^ But do consider talking to others from both sides. Because many others find the Bible to be talking in an orderly, organized, coherent fashion. And you just might be wrong about the Bible.

If you seriously talk to others from both camps, you can at least tell God in the Judgment that you tried.

[af_newbie]

^^^ But do consider talking to others from both sides. Because many others find the Bible to be talking in an orderly, organized, coherent fashion. And you just might be wrong about the Bible.

If you seriously talk to others from both camps, you can at least tell God in the Judgment that you tried.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."


Creator of the universe just had to put that scenario in, LOL. Enough said.

[BADecker]

^^^ All  you are indicating is that you don't understand honor.