Why do Atheists Hate Religion?

[af_newbie]

You are a good person if you follow the moral code that your society accepts.  

Here is a thought experiment for you af_newbie. Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.
Standing triumphant over the hundreds of million dead with the whole world in submission how would you judge the Nazi executioners who led the innocent to their doom in the name of racial superiority and suppression of dissent. Would they suddenly become good men according to you? After all they are only following the code that society now accepts. Those who opposed them no longer live. Or would they be evil men who triumphed and in process dragged the world into darkness and evil.

The answer to the question matters a great deal. I judge them evil men despite their victory and despite the fact that they follow the new "moral code" of society would you?

As for the hypothetical situation about the Nazis, I am afraid I would not be able to experience this as I would be killed opposing their supremacist ideology....

How many Germans died opposing Hitler?  So stop fabricating this notion that all Germans supported Nazism.  I would probably end up like August Landmesser:
...
If you had to put a label on me, call me a materialist humanist, moral relativist but nihilist?  

Fuck, I value life (including human) more than you ever will, you deluded, sadistic prick.  I know we have ONE, fucking life to live, so it is more precious to me than you.  To you, this life means shit, as you look forward to 'unite' with your imaginary friend after you die and decompose.

It is to your credit that you would stand up in opposition to evil in that scenario af_newbie. That fact that enough people did is why that particular evil failed.

However, you dodged the question. I did not ask you what you would do or if you would be among the living I asked you if following victory the Nazi's would suddenly become good men. If evil becomes good by popular consensus simply by killing the opposition.

The problem with your moral standard is the answer is yes they would be good men. In your own words "You are a good person if you follow the moral code that your society accepts." That is moral relativism in a nutshell.

August Landmesser was certainly an exceptional German he was exceptional because he did not follow the moral code his society accepted. He opposed Nazism and paid dearly for it. He was forced to fight in a penal battalion and was killed. His wife was killed. His children were placed in orphanages and fortunately survived. Hitler was elected into office via a democratic vote. He was given emergency dictatorial powers by a democratic vote in the legislature. Opposition existed but was not widespread there was no civil war in Germany or anything like it. His rise to power was legal.

You disagree with the term nihilism I will stop using it to describe you. It was not meant as a pejorative. You value life and that is good. It means you have kept at least a part of yourself free of relativism. There is no scientific reason to value life. There are billions of other humans very similar to you and probably many other planets with other life out there somewhere. Valuing life is probably necessary to reproduce and propagate but there is no scientific reason to do that either. The real reason to value life is not because it is rare or common or practical. The reason to value life is that each individual is an end in and of themselves.

You can certainly build a coherent worldview on moral relativism. It turns into a philosophy of power and the necessity to seek power over yourself and others at all costs. The following theoretical discussion between Kant and Nietzsche is a little deep but it highlights this last point.

Kant and Nietzsche talk it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHJFWJgXuXg  

you deluded, sadistic prick.

I understand deluded but sadistic?

I take no pleasure in inflicting suffering, humiliation, or pain on others. If I have done any of those things to you in the course of our discussion I apologize for it was unintentional.

You have no empathy for gays and transgender people.  You think they are mentally ill.  If you had your way, you would remove them from society and lock them up in mental institutions and subject them to psychiatric treatments.  Electric shocks from the 1950s come to mind.

You support discrimination.  Discrimination causes harm.  Do you enjoy inflicting harm?

BTW, the Nazi party supported racial laws, the German society at large did not.  Hitler instituted dictatorship in Germany.  Learn history before you speak on the subject.  Even in the 1933 elections, Hitler only got the support of 43.9% of eligible voters, and that is after a good decade of political intimidation and violent suppression of any opposition.  Majority of Germans did not support Hitler.  In the 1920s, his support was in the low teens.

You say that I would have to grab pussies by a truckload because Trump does it.  50% Americans support Trump, it does not mean that if you live in the US, your moral code is the same as Trump's moral code.  

[CoinCube]

You have no empathy for gays and transgender people.  You think they are mentally ill.  If you had your way, you would remove them from society and lock them up in mental institutions and subjected them to psychiatric treatments.  Electric shocks from the 1950s come to mind.

You support discrimination.  Discrimination causes harm.  Do you enjoy inflicting harm?

BTW, the Nazi party supported racial laws, the German society at large did not.  Hitler instituted dictatorship in Germany.  Learn history before you speak on the subject.  Even in the 1933 elections, Hitler only got the support of 43.9% of eligible voters, and that is after a good decade of political intimidation and violent suppression of any opposition.  Majority of Germans did not support Hitler.  In the 1920s, his support was in the low teens.

Ok now you are flat out being ridiculous. Of course I have empathy for gays and transgender people.

I also don’t think people with homosexual tendencies are mentally ill. I have known several highly intelligent and highly functional people who are gay. Gender dysphoria is different story. The 50% attempted suicide rate gives that away if nothing else does.

By and large I do not support forced anything and that includes forced psychiatric care or forced incarceration unless there is no other choice.

I also oppose forced association against ones genuine religious beliefs. For example your humanist moral relativism religion has left you with a distain for Christianity. I have no problem with you deciding to never to hire Christians in your business.

Is that discrimination against Christians you bet it is. I also think such discrimination is very much the wrong thing to do. Nevertheless, not discriminating is not the highest ideal. In this case it should give way to the higher principal of freedom.

In regards to Hitler yes his party failed to get a majority of the popular vote but much of the votes he did not get went to other parties that ended up supporting him. The enabling act which officially granted him dictatorial powers letting him pass laws without parliament passed the with 441 votes in favor. Only 94 representatives opposed.

https://m.dw.com/en/the-law-that-enabled-hitlers-dictatorship/a-16689839

[af_newbie]

You have no empathy for gays and transgender people.  You think they are mentally ill.  If you had your way, you would remove them from society and lock them up in mental institutions and subjected them to psychiatric treatments.  Electric shocks from the 1950s come to mind.

You support discrimination.  Discrimination causes harm.  Do you enjoy inflicting harm?

Ok now you are flat out being ridiculous. Of course I have empathy for gays and transgender people.

I also don’t think people with homosexual tendencies are mentally ill. I have known several highly intelligent and highly functional people who are gay. Gender dysphoria is different story. The 50% attempted suicide rate gives that away if nothing else does.

By and large I do not support forced anything and that includes forced psychiatric care or forced incarceration unless there is no other choice.

I also oppose forced association against ones genuine religious beliefs. For example your humanist moral relativism religion has left you with a distain for Christianity. I have no problem with you deciding to never to hire Christians in your business.

Is that discrimination against Christians you bet it is. I also think such discrimination is very much the wrong thing to do. Nevertheless, not discriminating is not the highest ideal. In this case it should give way to the higher principal of freedom.

In regards to Hitler yes his party failed to get a majority of the popular vote but much of the votes he did not get went to other parties that ended up supporting him. The enabling act which officially granted him dictatorial powers letting him pass laws without parliament passed the German with 441 votes in favor. Only the 94 representatives opposed.

https://m.dw.com/en/the-law-that-enabled-hitlers-dictatorship/a-16689839

Are Christians protected from discrimination by our current laws?

Are the transgender people protected from discrimination by the current laws?

You said in the past that you are against extending the discrimination laws to protect the transgender people. 

Saying that Christians are discriminated is like saying that WASPs are discriminated in the US. Christians rule the US.

[CoinCube]

Are Christians protected from discrimination by our current laws?

Are the transgender people protected from discrimination by the current laws?

You said in the past that you are against extending the discrimination laws to protect the transgender people.  

Saying that Christians are discriminated is like saying that WASPs are discriminated in the US. Christians rule the US.

Yes Christians are protected by current law.

No individuals with gender dysphoria are not.

I am opposed to big government in general and that includes the creation of an ever expanding list of special legally protected classes over time. We need to be reducing government’s size and role in our lives not growing it.

[af_newbie]

Are Christians protected from discrimination by our current laws?

Are the transgender people protected from discrimination by the current laws?

You said in the past that you are against extending the discrimination laws to protect the transgender people.  

Saying that Christians are discriminated is like saying that WASPs are discriminated in the US. Christians rule the US.

Yes Christians are protected by current law.

No individuals with gender dysphoria are not.

I am opposed to big government in general and that includes the creation of an ever expanding list of special legally protected classes over time. We need to be reducing government’s size and role in our lives not growing it.

At least there is something we agree on.  I too oppose big government, but c'mon discrimination laws is not the best way to reduce government.

I think you are against this particular group of people because of peer pressure from other Christians.  You know that harming people is wrong, but you go with the flow and support this discrimination anyway.

For the same reason, 100 years ago, Christians were against giving Blacks or women the same legal protections.

Ask yourself: 'What would Jesus character do?"

PS.  Here you have an example of why moral objectivity is wrong.  Other examples from our history are slavery, racial and gender discrimination.  You are a moral relativitist because you do not kill gays for breakfast as the Bible recommends. You said yourself that you are against slavery.  Where is your moral objectivity?  Pushed away into the footprints of history, LOL.

PPS.  Do you want to trim government size? Close all libraries, digitize books, convert them to one website, where people can check-out books electronically, provide time-based, copyrighted book viewer and you're are done.  This would save big bucks, and trim the government payroll numbers.  Another much bigger pie is in the military.  Bring all troops home, eliminate military bases outside of the US, protect your borders, reduce military personnel.

[Astargath]

Are Christians protected from discrimination by our current laws?

Are the transgender people protected from discrimination by the current laws?

You said in the past that you are against extending the discrimination laws to protect the transgender people.  

Saying that Christians are discriminated is like saying that WASPs are discriminated in the US. Christians rule the US.

Yes Christians are protected by current law.

No individuals with gender dysphoria are not.

I am opposed to big government in general and that includes the creation of an ever expanding list of special legally protected classes over time. We need to be reducing government’s size and role in our lives not growing it.

At least there is something we agree on.  I too oppose big government, but c'mon discrimination laws is not the best way to reduce government.

I think you are against this particular group of people because of peer pressure from other Christians.  You know that harming people is wrong, but you go with the flow and support this discrimination anyway.

For the same reason, 100 years ago, Christians were against giving Blacks or women the same legal protections.

Ask yourself: 'What would Jesus character do?"

PS.  Here you have an example of why moral objectivity is wrong.  Other examples from our history are slavery, racial and gender discrimination.  You are a moral relativitist because you do not kill gays for breakfast as the Bible recommends. You said yourself that you are against slavery.  Where is your moral objectivity?  Pushed away into the footprints of history, LOL.

PPS.  Do you want to trim government size? Close all libraries, digitize books, convert them to one website, where people can check-out books electronically, provide time-based, copyrighted book viewer and you're are done.  This would save big bucks, and trim the government payroll numbers.  Another much bigger pie is in the military.  Bring all troops home, eliminate military bases outside of the US, protect your borders, reduce military personnel.

I wonder why god would create gays or transsexuals in the first place, seems like something so unnecessary and it's not even related to free will.

[BADecker]

^^^ You are mixed up regarding this, similar to how you are mixed up about evolution and its theory. Evolution theory exists, but the form of evolution proposed by evolution theory doesn't.

How does this apply to gays or transsexuals? God doesn't make gays or transsexuals. God makes people. The idea that God makes gays and transsexuals is only an idea. It is the people, themselves, who turn themselves into gays or transsexuals at times, not God.

[af_newbie]

^^^ You are mixed up regarding this, similar to how you are mixed up about evolution and its theory. Evolution theory exists, but the form of evolution proposed by evolution theory doesn't.

How does this apply to gays or transsexuals? God doesn't make gays or transsexuals. God makes people. The idea that God makes gays and transsexuals is only an idea. It is the people, themselves, who turn themselves into gays or transsexuals at times, not God.

Just stop this 'free will' nonsense, aka. excuse why God fucked up his 'perfect' plan.

Our world can be deterministic or non-deterministic.  There is no other choice.

If the world is deterministic, you have no control over what you are going to do next.  Your thoughts are driven by all the cause and effects that created thoughts in your brain. The 'choices' your brain produces are the product of C&E your brain experienced before it produced the said 'choices'.  The very process of 'choosing the right option' is determined by your previous experiences and the state of your brain.

If the world is non-deterministic, there is some random process that you have no control over it.  The thoughts produced by your brain are the result of C&E and some random process over which you have no control.  By definition, the 'choices' your brain produces are not really yours but are determined by some random process inside or outside of your brain and the current state of your brain.

Our brain development is a cumulative process during which you have no control over this process.  You did not know you were you until you were probably 2-3 years old.

Can you consciously control what happens in your dreams?  
Can you consciously control your liver function?

Can you consciously choose to be gay?  Try it, let us know how it goes.

Our brains are complex automatons capable of creating illusions, including the 'free will' and "me" illusion.

[BADecker]

^^^ There are both, free will and lack of it.

For example, when you work for a company, your boss often tells you to do something. Some things he dictates. But others he allows you to use your own judgment on. The results work out best when there is a little of each, free will and controlled direction.

God works similarly in the universe, but much more foundationally. He allows us partial free will so that we are free. But because we are not strong enough to actuate anything that we free-will decide, God does the actuating for us. When He does it, He does it according to His goals and the physics of the universe.

Cause & Effect in the universe makes it look like we ultimately don't have free will. But we don't have enough science to factually claim that we have free will or not. So, we need to follow the two examples available:
1. Apparent free will shows that the free-will idea is present;
2. The Bible shows us how we have free will, with God Almighty guiding it.

Conscious control of things is very limited. Even science has shown that the subconscious is far greater than the conscious.

[okala]

I was born and raised into Christianity, I don't know what religion really was until I go to high school where we have to learn about different religions and it was then I know there are other religion aside Christian. So you being and Atheist that don't believe in religion is all about believes and were one grow up really tell a lot on you understanding of things.

[BADecker]

^^^ That's too bad for you.

I was raised Christian, and the first time I heard about death, I asked my parents what it meant. They explained it to me. And then they explained that Jesus (the Christ) takes people to Heaven if they believe in Him.

I feel sad for you that you never had anyone explain it to you.

[CoinCube]

Just stop this 'free will' nonsense, aka. excuse why God fucked up his 'perfect' plan.

Our world can be deterministic or non-deterministic.  There is no other choice.

If the world is deterministic, you have no control over what you are going to do next.  Your thoughts are driven by all the cause and effects that created thoughts in your brain. The 'choices' your brain produces are the product of C&E your brain experienced before it produced the said 'choices'.  The very process of 'choosing the right option' is determined by your previous experiences and the state of your brain.

If the world is non-deterministic, there is some random process that you have no control over it.  The thoughts produced by your brain are the result of C&E and some random process over which you have no control.  By definition, the 'choices' your brain produces are not really yours but are determined by some random process inside or outside of your brain and the current state of your brain.
...
Our brains are complex automatons capable of creating illusions, including the 'free will' and "me" illusion.

Actually there is a third option. The universe including all time and space could be an imagined deterministic creation in which the creations are imagined to be free.

Here is the solution to the problem I agree with. Trigger warning you are going to absolutely hate it.
The Izbicer Rebbe and Freewill
http://www.theapj.com/the-izbicer-rebbe-and-freewill-2/

The more powerful the consciousness the more spectacular the illusion

You are a moral relativitist because you do not kill gays for breakfast as the Bible recommends.

The best way to understand the Old Testament of the Bible is as a set of ideal rules for the primitive society it was given to a barbaric primitive corrupt illiterate tribe living in unimaginable squalor surrounded and vastly outnumbered by more powerful pagan cultures.

It should be viewed as the necessary rules for that society to survive and thrive in their utterly hostile environment.  When viewed from this frame of reference even the seemingly bizarre passages often fall into logical order as I discussed with Astargath immediately up thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg50785483#msg50785483

When trying to reconcile rules from those primitive times with today's much more complex and developed society the answer is fairly straightforward yet at the same time quite difficult. You shared it with us yourself.
 

Ask yourself: 'What would Jesus character do?"

[BADecker]

^^^ You're so good, CoinCube. When you look at the Psalms in the O.T., you find many of them were written and spoken/sung by King David, some before he was king. He was a warrior. He was one of the bloodiest warriors. He personally killed thousands. But his Psalms explain him.

"When I wanted peace, they wanted war."
"O, my God, save my life from those dogs."

Most of his Psalms had to do with asking God for help in his warrior activities... not because he wanted to be a warrior, but because he was thrown into the position by others who wanted to harm him and the little nation of Ancient Israel.

Exactly as you said. There wasn't any police force. There wasn't any modern military. It was every little nation for themselves... against any other nation that was out to savagely attack them, rape, plunder, steal their land, etc.

David was throwing his life into God's hands. And, he was obeying God's law. The thing he set up for his son, Solomon, was a little dinky nation, that was, size for size, the most powerful nation that the world ever knew... possibly right up to the present.

It wasn't God's idea for Ancient Israel to go on the warpath, out of their land, to attack other nations far away. But if David had wanted, God probably would have allowed him to become a mightier conqueror than Genghis Khan could have imagined.

[sirazimuth]

^^^ That's too bad for you.

I was raised Christian, and the first time I heard about death, I asked my parents what it meant. They explained it to me. And then they explained that Jesus (the Christ) takes people to Heaven if they believe in Him.

I feel sad for you that you never had anyone explain it to you.

I feel sad for you that your folks indoctrinated you with “fairy tales for grownups” (as l like to refer to Christianity as) when you were young and impressionable, rather than letting you think critically and come to the rational conclusion that all religions are fairy tales for grownups.
Thank goodness my parents did just that, and around the age of nine I was smart enough to realize that the
almighty invisible sky fairy, that deluded pious folk (such as yourself) refer to as god, allah,  yowie, jehova....or whatever the phuk  your silly flavor religion names him..is about as real as Santa Claus or the tooth fairy.

[af_newbie]

Just stop this 'free will' nonsense, aka. excuse why God fucked up his 'perfect' plan.

Our world can be deterministic or non-deterministic.  There is no other choice.

If the world is deterministic, you have no control over what you are going to do next.  Your thoughts are driven by all the cause and effects that created thoughts in your brain. The 'choices' your brain produces are the product of C&E your brain experienced before it produced the said 'choices'.  The very process of 'choosing the right option' is determined by your previous experiences and the state of your brain.

If the world is non-deterministic, there is some random process that you have no control over it.  The thoughts produced by your brain are the result of C&E and some random process over which you have no control.  By definition, the 'choices' your brain produces are not really yours but are determined by some random process inside or outside of your brain and the current state of your brain.
...
Our brains are complex automatons capable of creating illusions, including the 'free will' and "me" illusion.

Actually there is a third option. The universe including all time and space could be an imagined deterministic creation in which the creations are imagined to be free.
...

You just babble without thinking, or you are unable to think.  Which one is it?

Your 'third' option is the "first" option.  Even if we live in the deterministic simulation.

Fuck, you are a walking, talking proof that religions cause permanent brain damage.

BTW, I just included the first option for completeness of the argument against the free will.  

In reality, it looks like the world is driven by more probabilistic, random events first seen in the double split experiment.

The first option would be correct if classical, Newtonian mechanics would explain everything we see in the universe, but it does not.

As for the simulation argument, it is a long shot.  But it is the only shot you religious freaks got, that the world is an infinite chain of simulations run by some alien species.

You are a moral relativitist because you do not kill gays for breakfast as the Bible recommends.

The best way to understand the Old Testament of the Bible is as a set of ideal rules for the primitive society it was given to a barbaric primitive corrupt illiterate tribe living in unimaginable squalor surrounded and vastly outnumbered by more powerful pagan cultures.

It should be viewed as the necessary rules for that society to survive and thrive in their utterly hostile environment.

Did you just conceit that the moral code is relative to the culture that adopts it? The Bible moral code was written by people from one Bronze Age culture for people from other Bronze Age cultures.  Nothing more, nothing else.  That is why in today's cultures we have different sets of moral values.  

Moral code evolves as our cultures evolve.  Actions that were accepted to be moral 100 years ago are not moral today, and vice versa.  Even our contemporary cultures have different moral standards.  Just look around the world, from the Middle East to Africa and Europe.  All diametrically different.

You just validated two things: that the morals are relative to the culture they were developed in, and that God did not write the Bible/Talmud/Quran moral code, people from those cultures did.  If it was the creator of space and time, he would have given transcendent, objective (to any culture) moral code.  That did not happen.

PS.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQbc0I9_pM

[BADecker]

^^^ That's too bad for you.

I was raised Christian, and the first time I heard about death, I asked my parents what it meant. They explained it to me. And then they explained that Jesus (the Christ) takes people to Heaven if they believe in Him.

I feel sad for you that you never had anyone explain it to you.

I feel sad for you that your folks indoctrinated you with “fairy tales for grownups” (as l like to refer to Christianity as) when you were young and impressionable, rather than letting you think critically and come to the rational conclusion that all religions are fairy tales for grownups.
Thank goodness my parents did just that, and around the age of nine I was smart enough to realize that the
almighty invisible sky fairy, that deluded pious folk (such as yourself) refer to as god, allah,  yowie, jehova....or whatever the phuk  your silly flavor religion names him..is about as real as Santa Claus or the tooth fairy.

All you are saying is that you reject reality and science. Go through my posts in Scientific proof that God exists? - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.0 - and put it together.

What? You won't do this? See? It's by choice that you reject the truth. You grew up to make your own choice, based on lack of facts.

[BADecker]

Did you just conceit that the moral code is relative to the culture that adopts it? The Bible moral code was written by people from one Bronze Age culture for people from other Bronze Age cultures.  Nothing more, nothing else.  That is why in today's cultures we have different sets of moral values.  

Moral code evolves as our cultures evolve.  Actions that were accepted to be moral 100 years ago are not moral today, and vice versa.  Even our contemporary cultures have different moral standards.  Just look around the world, from the Middle East to Africa and Europe.  All diametrically different.

You just validated two things: that the morals are relative to the culture they were developed in, and that God did not write the Bible/Talmud/Quran moral code, people from those cultures did.  If it was the creator of space and time, he would have given transcendent, objective (to any culture) moral code.  That did not happen.

PS.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQbc0I9_pM

The thing that you willing ignore is that people are just the same now as they were back then. So, the laws fit the people of today as they did the people back then. But the point is who the laws were given to, and why.

Science shows us that math and physics haven't changed much in the last several thousand years. But the Bible stopped expanding with the Revelation, almost 2,000 years ago, because God accomplished the saving of ALL people back then, with Jesus' death and resurrection. So, the laws, while they are important, are going to dissolve (along with the math and physics) in the coming destruction of this universe.

Why doesn't science know about the coming destruction scientifically? They do. Everybody knows that we all die. But science is too weak to tell about the coming end of the universe. We need to go to God for that. Btw, God is attested to by science, not necessarily by scientists - Scientific proof that God exists? - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.0.

[Astargath]

^^^ There are both, free will and lack of it.

For example, when you work for a company, your boss often tells you to do something. Some things he dictates. But others he allows you to use your own judgment on. The results work out best when there is a little of each, free will and controlled direction.

God works similarly in the universe, but much more foundationally. He allows us partial free will so that we are free. But because we are not strong enough to actuate anything that we free-will decide, God does the actuating for us. When He does it, He does it according to His goals and the physics of the universe.

Cause & Effect in the universe makes it look like we ultimately don't have free will. But we don't have enough science to factually claim that we have free will or not. So, we need to follow the two examples available:
1. Apparent free will shows that the free-will idea is present;
2. The Bible shows us how we have free will, with God Almighty guiding it.

Conscious control of things is very limited. Even science has shown that the subconscious is far greater than the conscious.

Just let us know when you successfully turn yourself into a homosexual and I will accept your theory that people ''choose'' to be gay.

[haseeb ahmed]

first of all we can not blame whole community just because of few rotten apples. And i think some of them hate religion because they think different religion are the reason of this extremism and radicalization presence in the world, which is true at all. Some people who are not following religion properly are extremist because no religion of world preach extremism.

[af_newbie]

first of all we can not blame whole community just because of few rotten apples. And i think some of them hate religion because they think different religion are the reason of this extremism and radicalization presence in the world, which is true at all. Some people who are not following religion properly are extremist because no religion of world preach extremism.

What does the Bible or Quran say you should do with the gay people?

Religious people are the victims.  The worldview presented in the scriptures is what is wrong with religions.

Not 'few rotten apples' as you put it.  People are born into their religions and become indoctrinated as children.
What happens after that depends on who they associate with.

Religions poison your mind.  All religions are equally evil.

The issue is not with 'few rotten apples', the issue is with 'rotten scriptures'.

Religious apologetics always try to shift the blame on people, away from the scriptures, but the fact is that the scriptures are the root cause of all the problems created by religions.  Not the people who were indoctrinated into the religions of their parents.