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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3007654 times)
Micky25
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September 27, 2013, 07:02:30 PM
 #11281

Where do you get electricity cheaper for industrial use than for residential use?

I was told that around here (Nova Scotia) home users are in effect subsidised, if you go industrial you not only pay more but also, if you go big, will end up needing three-phase and such which is more expensive again.

I guess in "screw the poor" nations though they wouldn't be subsidising home users?

("If they want light, let them stay at work!" Wink Cheesy)

(Maybe it might also have to do with the fact you seem to need electricity in order to get a residence permit saying the building is fit for people to live in.)

-MarkM-


Living in such a nation (germany), I can confirm this. Here companies get subsidized on a energy costs/staff costs formula. So companies only have to get staff from lowcost temp work agencies to achieve overproportional high energy costs, resulting in ridiculous low electricity rates.

Nevertheless, as I said before, I had the same thoughts as you guys, but in the meantime I think energy costs are negligible, considering risks, possible profit, legal questions, management overhead, security, staff and maintenance cost of large scale bitcoin mining operations, there are easier ways to make money and I'm not so sure if small-time miners won't get their second chance in the not so far future - and this persistently.
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crumbs
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September 27, 2013, 07:16:28 PM
 #11282

...
"Some guy" was dead wrong.
Large operations have substantially lower initial costs -- from gear quantity discounts to industrial electrical rates.


I totally agree on this, but they have exponential higher fixed costs (AC, rent, maintenance, staff) as well, while income drops at same rate as it does for us.

Considering that useful  lifespan of today's mining rigs is ~ 1 year, how much do you suppose it will cost to host it in a makeshift datacenter in a cool climate?

The requirements for mining gear are much more lax than those provided by a typical data center.  AC/air filtration is not needed.  A warehouse space with decent exhaust fans & plain old concrete floor would do (overhead cabling).  The staff could also be very limited -- unlike a typical data center, housing all sorts of funky gear & problems, a mining farm consists of virtually identical gear, with a fixed set of potential problems, requiring basic maintenance & oversight.

Now imagine how much a 4U space would cost you a year, if you rent a warehouse....  Right.  Change, compared to the money you'd save buying that 4U worth of miner wholesale. Smiley

Edit:
Quote
Nevertheless, as I said before, I had the same thoughts as you guys, but in the meantime I think energy costs are negligible,
These negligible costs could be the difference between keeping the gear mining or tossing it on the trash heap.
Quote

 considering risks,
No greater than the risks of privateers, lower risks, actually. Ask me why.
Quote
possible profit, legal questions,
A mining farm can choose its locale (where the law loves minerz), you can not.
Quote
management overhead,
See before edit.
Quote
security,

I'm sure an old rent-a-cop would provide more security than my deadbolt lock & my ferocious cat.
Quote
staff and maintenance cost of large scale bitcoin mining operations,
See before edit.
Quote
there are easier ways to make money and I'm not so sure if small-time miners won't get their second chance in the not so far future - and this persistently.
There are also harder ways of making money, and they don't scale up as easily as mining. Smiley
nightengale
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September 27, 2013, 07:18:44 PM
 #11283

I'm sorry guys & gals, but this time Xallia & Crumbs are right.

When I ordered, It was for September DELIVERY, not September shipping.

Call it what you will... Fact is...   Come Monday... If the miners are not delivered... The miners are late.

thanks. much appreciate this statement..

I think someone just withdrew from the fan club...
Bargraphics
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September 27, 2013, 07:19:37 PM
 #11284

I'm sorry guys & gals, but this time Xallia & Crumbs are right.

When I ordered, It was for September DELIVERY, not September shipping.

Call it what you will... Fact is...   Come Monday... If the miners are not delivered... The miners are late.

thanks. much appreciate this statement..

I think someone just withdrew from the fan club...

Me and the other members are furious. No more free Kool-Aid for you Phoenix1969!
NEO2012
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September 27, 2013, 07:24:50 PM
 #11285

Yeah thats what I thought, but I was told otherwise. Not directly by the power corp though (it is a monopoly here, Nova Scotia Power) so maybe the guy who told me didn't really actually know what he was on about afterall.

-MarkM-


It would look like he is incorrect.  Residential customers may be partially subsidized but they still pay more per kWh.  Then again with residential rates @ $15 per kWh in the long run it is unlikely they will be profitable.  Even leasing warehouse space to get large commercial rates wouldn't make much sense as they are still $0.09 per kWh.  There are parts of the US where large commercial power users pay <$0.03 per kWh.

http://www.nspower.ca/en/home/residential/billing/powerrates/default.aspx




yes then  bfl cosutmers suck donkey balls

thts for sure also

no matter ur power bill
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September 27, 2013, 07:31:11 PM
 #11286

One also has to consider the geopolitical risk as well.  Ask companies how much they lost when Chavez started nationalizing foreign assets in Venezuela.

Following my experience that is an extreme example. Billion $ companies base their operations in countries where the geopolitical risk is theoretically high, but nevertheless the profit is well worth that risk.

As I said earlier, I've seen first hand a few big european companies opening factories in North Africa to be more competitive. There are many benefits (operational costs are lower in general), but especially for companies for which electricity is massive cost, moving abroad is a no-brainer. When you are used to pay 6/7 figures in monthly electricity bills, a mild geopolitical risk is nothing compared to savings Wink

An individual will NEVER be able to be as efficient as a corporation in a business as is BTC mining as its currently conceived.
Never is a strong word.  A company may have cheaper power and mining hardware (although I think in time margins will be so compressed it won't be much cheaper) but it has more expensive "everything else."  Imagine a hypothetical miner in 2015.   He buys mining boards (which by now are very low margin) he constructs his own case/frame powers it from his old ATX power supply, and puts it next to a window with a box fan.  Additional cost beyond hashing equipment and power: ~$0.00.

You can't do that for a PH/s or more.  Take the price of the business property lease, add in employees, add in security (you aren't going to leave you $50M in miners alone at night are you), add in insurance cost, add in fire suppression (might be mandatory in some areas), throw in business taxes, and pile on the additional energy and capital costs for 800 KW of industrial chillers, etc.   Even mundane stuff like enough racks to mount 1 PH/s (you aren't going to just leave them on the floor are you, and the cost of an electrician to run enough drops to power 1,000 or more systems all add up.  All those are Diseconomies of scale.  The company may be cheaper but GH/s but it isn't 10x cheaper like the raw power costs might suggest.  The last thing to consider is cost of capital.  After this gold rush period is over mining isn't a particularly attractive venture from a risk vs reward point of view.  Many investors may look at the small reward, the outsized risk, and the fact that profits are largely determined by the actions of outsiders and simply pass on the millions necessary to build up such a mining farm.


One thing I am particularly interested in is using the "waste heat".  For a large operation (say 1 PH/s = 800 KW = 1 million BTU/hr) they have a lot of waste heat but it has no value.  It actually has negative value as the company will spend money both on hardware and energy to remove that heat.  On the other hand a home user could use waste heat to preheat hot water (free hot water for the rest of your life), and in the winter supplement heating the residence.  With GPU rigs they are too bulky, complex, and skill intensive.  However take some ASICS put them in a compact sealed box, cold water in, hot water out and that "waste heat" suddenly has value.  I am doing some experiments right now.  Interesting stuff.

That being said I do believe large commercial players will make up a significant portion of the network capacity in the future.  I still think hobbyists and small home farmers will exist however they will be in areas of the world with lower than average energy prices (<$0.10 per kWh), generally cooler climates, and may look to thinks like using waste heat to boost ROI%.

I think you are assuming that efficient mining equipment will be generally available, and I doubt that. People with free electricity could keep mining with GPUs indefinitely, but the fact is that their hashrate is already a drop in the ocean. I think there will be a moment in which the most advanced ASIC will just be in the hands of big corporations with the means to fully develop their own chips & hardware, and thus the home miners will be a negligible part of the hashrate, which actually means they were "cut out", because they cannot compete with corporations.

I might be wrong, we will see - it's nevertheless an exciting, game-changing time. I also think your experiments about "waste heat" are extremely interesting. While the home miner as we conceive it might be a walking dead, a newborn "rational" miner might be on the way - and that could really be a new paradigm. I can imagine a future in which the hardware that secures the network is warming our homes and our water, and I like it Wink

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September 27, 2013, 07:42:40 PM
 #11287

... I can imagine a future in which the hardware that secures the network is warming our homes and our water, and I like it Wink

Unfortunately this is already being exploited to greenwash BTC mining.  IceDrill claims to be using the waste heat from its mining farm to offer hot water heating to an apartment complex (if i remember right).  But yeah, waste heat could be used for anything, up to preheating water for steam turbines that run the generators that power the farm Cheesy
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September 27, 2013, 07:44:34 PM
 #11288

My .061 industrial rate is serving me very well for hosting. + The generally cool weather where I live makes for not very much AC needed.
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September 27, 2013, 08:06:07 PM
 #11289

hi

speaking about that wasted heat, have you heard about pelletier's modules (used with the seebeck effect)

and also about the stirling engine ? both can make electricity with heat ...

you just need tu re inject the DC in the miner with a power inverter and you miner costs you less money

so you earn more coins ... and the miners last longer


or you can also make electricity with piss too ... Grin
it's also free but it's not generated by the computer

BTC:18oLLFcxwwzfQt4F2YF7QzKyFeksq3dqsQ
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September 27, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
 #11290

hi

speaking about that wasted heat, have you heard about pelletier's modules (used with the seebeck effect)
...or you can also make electricity with piss too ... Grin
it's also free but it's not generated by the computer


See also:  Rube Goldberg.
See also: Stirling stove-top fan. Cheesy
Edit: I wish i could find the pic, but there was a Russian WW2-era thermocouple generator that fit  Found it!
Powered a tube radio (tubes have heater filaments, so they suck plenty of power)
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September 27, 2013, 08:22:17 PM
 #11291

I'm sorry guys & gals, but this time Xallia & Crumbs are right.

When I ordered, It was for September DELIVERY, not September shipping.

Call it what you will... Fact is...   Come Monday... If the miners are not delivered... The miners are late.

might be very tight if you are not living next door

Quote
As we are now in production we can’t say for sure that your boxes will be ready for pickup on Monday.
There are no pickups before Monday in any case.
 
Most likely all your orders will be ready early next week, but that does bring us into October I’m afraid.

!! File Complaints Against KnCMiner NOW !!
..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
Dalkore
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September 27, 2013, 08:25:22 PM
 #11292

Yeah thats what I thought, but I was told otherwise. Not directly by the power corp though (it is a monopoly here, Nova Scotia Power) so maybe the guy who told me didn't really actually know what he was on about afterall.

-MarkM-


It would look like he is incorrect.  Residential customers may be partially subsidized but they still pay more per kWh.  Then again with residential rates @ $15 per kWh in the long run it is unlikely they will be profitable.  Even leasing warehouse space to get large commercial rates wouldn't make much sense as they are still $0.09 per kWh.  There are parts of the US where large commercial power users pay <$0.03 per kWh.

http://www.nspower.ca/en/home/residential/billing/powerrates/default.aspx




Ahem, did someone say cheap power? Smiley   We are actually getting our first KNC units really soon (hopefully).   I can't wait to check them out.

[Winter Fire Sale] Hosting: $60.00 per KW) [6-month contracts] - Link
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September 27, 2013, 08:34:04 PM
 #11293

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEs0c-m2YNE

http://www.hi-z.com/products.php

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2010/01/02/31-efficient-stirling-engines-used-to-convert-1-5mw-of-arizona-solar-power/#.UkXsbygiN34

BTC:18oLLFcxwwzfQt4F2YF7QzKyFeksq3dqsQ
Micky25
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September 27, 2013, 08:34:30 PM
 #11294

Many thanks @DeathAndTaxes (whose posts I always admire) for putting my thoughts in a million time more eloquent way and @crumbs for the nice and skillfull quoting  Wink

... I can imagine a future in which the hardware that secures the network is warming our homes and our water, and I like it Wink
Sadly this site is in German only (till now), but I think the concept is clear https://www.aoterra.de/
Maybe the "terra" in the name is unfortunate in this community right now..
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September 27, 2013, 08:47:38 PM
 #11295

I'm sorry guys & gals, but this time Xallia & Crumbs are right.

When I ordered, It was for September DELIVERY, not September shipping.

Call it what you will... Fact is...   Come Monday... If the miners are not delivered... The miners are late.

thanks. much appreciate this statement..
I think someone just withdrew from the fan club...

Easy there, I'm still a fan, but the truth is the truth. When I was placing orders, especially the first one(5x), they were still indeed advertising



I could spend hours digging up more, but no bother, I'm just a bit sad we are indeed behind now. Those of us who were in the first 890 preorder, were told we would get our machines in september, and were told several times they are on track for "september delivery", which has somehow turned into "Shipping in September"


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Xialla
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September 27, 2013, 09:00:46 PM
 #11296

I could spend hours digging up more, but no bother, I'm just a bit sad we are indeed behind now. Those of us who were in the first 890 preorder, were told we would get our machines in september, and were told several times they are on track for "september delivery", which has somehow turned into "Shipping in September"

YEEEEEEES
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September 27, 2013, 09:04:31 PM
 #11297

turned off ignore on Xialla....and remembered why it was turned on.  I need to stop being a sucker for updates on this thread.

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September 27, 2013, 09:07:07 PM
 #11298

turned off ignore on Xialla....and remembered why it was turned on.  I need to stop being a sucker for updates on this thread.
Did a quick show/hide. Yep, don't mis that.
 
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September 27, 2013, 09:08:23 PM
 #11299

(...)
I could spend hours digging up more, but no bother, I'm just a bit sad we are indeed behind now. Those of us who were in the first 890 preorder, were told we would get our machines in september, and were told several times they are on track for "september delivery", which has somehow turned into "Shipping in September"


I'm curious how long it takes until -Redacted- or TheAvenger jump on you..


(...)

instead of
"Can you Xialla and everyone else stop WHINING LIKE CHILDREN, we're all getting really sick of it."
you should yell
"KnC what the fuck is going on, you make me dealing with more and more ppl being pissed off, we're all getting really sick of it."

Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, ad nuseum...


now this shady 'no more refund' policy (because of mass refunds?),
Speculation. Speculation. Speculation.

(...)

You enjoy that speculation?

It doesn't mean anything.

instead of
"Can you Xialla and everyone else stop WHINING LIKE CHILDREN, we're all getting really sick of it."
you should yell
"KnC what the fuck is going on, you make me dealing with more and more ppl being pissed off, we're all getting really sick of it."
Most of the FUD comes from comparing KNC to other companies.

(...)

If KNC ship on or before 30th Sept, they have kept their big promise. No one knows if they will or not, so everything else is speculation.

As I said a page back, better to stick to the facts we have and wait for updates (from KNC directly, or from Bitcoinorama who says he is going to Sweden tomorrow and will report back with facts and pictures/videos).

!! File Complaints Against KnCMiner NOW !!
..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
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September 27, 2013, 09:09:11 PM
 #11300

I know how you feel. ROI is looking very unlikely without deadline being missed. This just adds to that unlikelihood.

It's pie in the sky, but I have to imagine they know they absolutely must to pull this off. Its bad enough that they dumped the price by over 2K for what is now suppose to be just a month of lead time, but considering the lion share of KNC's money will in theory come from re-investors, they have to make sure they don't burn the initial investors. I'm not sure how they are going to do this but they are smart guys, they must know this has to happen to be long term solvent.

But then again, they have till Monday to show good on their promise, and we shall see by then if KNC can keep its promise, and by how much they intend to over-deliver.
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