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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3039464 times)
NEO2012
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September 27, 2013, 07:24:50 PM
 #11281

Yeah thats what I thought, but I was told otherwise. Not directly by the power corp though (it is a monopoly here, Nova Scotia Power) so maybe the guy who told me didn't really actually know what he was on about afterall.

-MarkM-


It would look like he is incorrect.  Residential customers may be partially subsidized but they still pay more per kWh.  Then again with residential rates @ $15 per kWh in the long run it is unlikely they will be profitable.  Even leasing warehouse space to get large commercial rates wouldn't make much sense as they are still $0.09 per kWh.  There are parts of the US where large commercial power users pay <$0.03 per kWh.

http://www.nspower.ca/en/home/residential/billing/powerrates/default.aspx




yes then  bfl cosutmers suck donkey balls

thts for sure also

no matter ur power bill
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September 27, 2013, 07:31:11 PM
 #11282

One also has to consider the geopolitical risk as well.  Ask companies how much they lost when Chavez started nationalizing foreign assets in Venezuela.

Following my experience that is an extreme example. Billion $ companies base their operations in countries where the geopolitical risk is theoretically high, but nevertheless the profit is well worth that risk.

As I said earlier, I've seen first hand a few big european companies opening factories in North Africa to be more competitive. There are many benefits (operational costs are lower in general), but especially for companies for which electricity is massive cost, moving abroad is a no-brainer. When you are used to pay 6/7 figures in monthly electricity bills, a mild geopolitical risk is nothing compared to savings Wink

An individual will NEVER be able to be as efficient as a corporation in a business as is BTC mining as its currently conceived.
Never is a strong word.  A company may have cheaper power and mining hardware (although I think in time margins will be so compressed it won't be much cheaper) but it has more expensive "everything else."  Imagine a hypothetical miner in 2015.   He buys mining boards (which by now are very low margin) he constructs his own case/frame powers it from his old ATX power supply, and puts it next to a window with a box fan.  Additional cost beyond hashing equipment and power: ~$0.00.

You can't do that for a PH/s or more.  Take the price of the business property lease, add in employees, add in security (you aren't going to leave you $50M in miners alone at night are you), add in insurance cost, add in fire suppression (might be mandatory in some areas), throw in business taxes, and pile on the additional energy and capital costs for 800 KW of industrial chillers, etc.   Even mundane stuff like enough racks to mount 1 PH/s (you aren't going to just leave them on the floor are you, and the cost of an electrician to run enough drops to power 1,000 or more systems all add up.  All those are Diseconomies of scale.  The company may be cheaper but GH/s but it isn't 10x cheaper like the raw power costs might suggest.  The last thing to consider is cost of capital.  After this gold rush period is over mining isn't a particularly attractive venture from a risk vs reward point of view.  Many investors may look at the small reward, the outsized risk, and the fact that profits are largely determined by the actions of outsiders and simply pass on the millions necessary to build up such a mining farm.


One thing I am particularly interested in is using the "waste heat".  For a large operation (say 1 PH/s = 800 KW = 1 million BTU/hr) they have a lot of waste heat but it has no value.  It actually has negative value as the company will spend money both on hardware and energy to remove that heat.  On the other hand a home user could use waste heat to preheat hot water (free hot water for the rest of your life), and in the winter supplement heating the residence.  With GPU rigs they are too bulky, complex, and skill intensive.  However take some ASICS put them in a compact sealed box, cold water in, hot water out and that "waste heat" suddenly has value.  I am doing some experiments right now.  Interesting stuff.

That being said I do believe large commercial players will make up a significant portion of the network capacity in the future.  I still think hobbyists and small home farmers will exist however they will be in areas of the world with lower than average energy prices (<$0.10 per kWh), generally cooler climates, and may look to thinks like using waste heat to boost ROI%.

I think you are assuming that efficient mining equipment will be generally available, and I doubt that. People with free electricity could keep mining with GPUs indefinitely, but the fact is that their hashrate is already a drop in the ocean. I think there will be a moment in which the most advanced ASIC will just be in the hands of big corporations with the means to fully develop their own chips & hardware, and thus the home miners will be a negligible part of the hashrate, which actually means they were "cut out", because they cannot compete with corporations.

I might be wrong, we will see - it's nevertheless an exciting, game-changing time. I also think your experiments about "waste heat" are extremely interesting. While the home miner as we conceive it might be a walking dead, a newborn "rational" miner might be on the way - and that could really be a new paradigm. I can imagine a future in which the hardware that secures the network is warming our homes and our water, and I like it Wink

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September 27, 2013, 07:42:40 PM
 #11283

... I can imagine a future in which the hardware that secures the network is warming our homes and our water, and I like it Wink

Unfortunately this is already being exploited to greenwash BTC mining.  IceDrill claims to be using the waste heat from its mining farm to offer hot water heating to an apartment complex (if i remember right).  But yeah, waste heat could be used for anything, up to preheating water for steam turbines that run the generators that power the farm Cheesy
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September 27, 2013, 07:44:34 PM
 #11284

My .061 industrial rate is serving me very well for hosting. + The generally cool weather where I live makes for not very much AC needed.
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September 27, 2013, 08:06:07 PM
 #11285

hi

speaking about that wasted heat, have you heard about pelletier's modules (used with the seebeck effect)

and also about the stirling engine ? both can make electricity with heat ...

you just need tu re inject the DC in the miner with a power inverter and you miner costs you less money

so you earn more coins ... and the miners last longer


or you can also make electricity with piss too ... Grin
it's also free but it's not generated by the computer

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September 27, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
 #11286

hi

speaking about that wasted heat, have you heard about pelletier's modules (used with the seebeck effect)
...or you can also make electricity with piss too ... Grin
it's also free but it's not generated by the computer


See also:  Rube Goldberg.
See also: Stirling stove-top fan. Cheesy
Edit: I wish i could find the pic, but there was a Russian WW2-era thermocouple generator that fit  Found it!
Powered a tube radio (tubes have heater filaments, so they suck plenty of power)
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September 27, 2013, 08:22:17 PM
 #11287

I'm sorry guys & gals, but this time Xallia & Crumbs are right.

When I ordered, It was for September DELIVERY, not September shipping.

Call it what you will... Fact is...   Come Monday... If the miners are not delivered... The miners are late.

might be very tight if you are not living next door

Quote
As we are now in production we can’t say for sure that your boxes will be ready for pickup on Monday.
There are no pickups before Monday in any case.
 
Most likely all your orders will be ready early next week, but that does bring us into October I’m afraid.

..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
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September 27, 2013, 08:25:22 PM
 #11288

Yeah thats what I thought, but I was told otherwise. Not directly by the power corp though (it is a monopoly here, Nova Scotia Power) so maybe the guy who told me didn't really actually know what he was on about afterall.

-MarkM-


It would look like he is incorrect.  Residential customers may be partially subsidized but they still pay more per kWh.  Then again with residential rates @ $15 per kWh in the long run it is unlikely they will be profitable.  Even leasing warehouse space to get large commercial rates wouldn't make much sense as they are still $0.09 per kWh.  There are parts of the US where large commercial power users pay <$0.03 per kWh.

http://www.nspower.ca/en/home/residential/billing/powerrates/default.aspx




Ahem, did someone say cheap power? Smiley   We are actually getting our first KNC units really soon (hopefully).   I can't wait to check them out.

Hosting: Low as $60.00 per KW - Link
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September 27, 2013, 08:34:04 PM
 #11289

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEs0c-m2YNE

http://www.hi-z.com/products.php

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2010/01/02/31-efficient-stirling-engines-used-to-convert-1-5mw-of-arizona-solar-power/#.UkXsbygiN34

BTC:18oLLFcxwwzfQt4F2YF7QzKyFeksq3dqsQ
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September 27, 2013, 08:34:30 PM
 #11290

Many thanks @DeathAndTaxes (whose posts I always admire) for putting my thoughts in a million time more eloquent way and @crumbs for the nice and skillfull quoting  Wink

... I can imagine a future in which the hardware that secures the network is warming our homes and our water, and I like it Wink
Sadly this site is in German only (till now), but I think the concept is clear https://www.aoterra.de/
Maybe the "terra" in the name is unfortunate in this community right now..
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September 27, 2013, 08:47:38 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2013, 09:15:16 PM by Phoenix1969
 #11291

I'm sorry guys & gals, but this time Xallia & Crumbs are right.

When I ordered, It was for September DELIVERY, not September shipping.

Call it what you will... Fact is...   Come Monday... If the miners are not delivered... The miners are late.

thanks. much appreciate this statement..
I think someone just withdrew from the fan club...

Easy there, I'm still a fan, but the truth is the truth. When I was placing orders, especially the first one(5x), they were still indeed advertising



I could spend hours digging up more, but no bother, I'm just a bit sad we are indeed behind now. Those of us who were in the first 890 preorder, were told we would get our machines in september, and were told several times they are on track for "september delivery", which has somehow turned into "Shipping in September"


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September 27, 2013, 09:00:46 PM
 #11292

I could spend hours digging up more, but no bother, I'm just a bit sad we are indeed behind now. Those of us who were in the first 890 preorder, were told we would get our machines in september, and were told several times they are on track for "september delivery", which has somehow turned into "Shipping in September"

YEEEEEEES
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September 27, 2013, 09:04:31 PM
 #11293

turned off ignore on Xialla....and remembered why it was turned on.  I need to stop being a sucker for updates on this thread.

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September 27, 2013, 09:07:07 PM
 #11294

turned off ignore on Xialla....and remembered why it was turned on.  I need to stop being a sucker for updates on this thread.
Did a quick show/hide. Yep, don't mis that.
 
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September 27, 2013, 09:08:23 PM
 #11295

(...)
I could spend hours digging up more, but no bother, I'm just a bit sad we are indeed behind now. Those of us who were in the first 890 preorder, were told we would get our machines in september, and were told several times they are on track for "september delivery", which has somehow turned into "Shipping in September"


I'm curious how long it takes until -Redacted- or TheAvenger jump on you..


(...)

instead of
"Can you Xialla and everyone else stop WHINING LIKE CHILDREN, we're all getting really sick of it."
you should yell
"KnC what the fuck is going on, you make me dealing with more and more ppl being pissed off, we're all getting really sick of it."

Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, ad nuseum...


now this shady 'no more refund' policy (because of mass refunds?),
Speculation. Speculation. Speculation.

(...)

You enjoy that speculation?

It doesn't mean anything.

instead of
"Can you Xialla and everyone else stop WHINING LIKE CHILDREN, we're all getting really sick of it."
you should yell
"KnC what the fuck is going on, you make me dealing with more and more ppl being pissed off, we're all getting really sick of it."
Most of the FUD comes from comparing KNC to other companies.

(...)

If KNC ship on or before 30th Sept, they have kept their big promise. No one knows if they will or not, so everything else is speculation.

As I said a page back, better to stick to the facts we have and wait for updates (from KNC directly, or from Bitcoinorama who says he is going to Sweden tomorrow and will report back with facts and pictures/videos).

..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
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September 27, 2013, 09:09:11 PM
 #11296

I know how you feel. ROI is looking very unlikely without deadline being missed. This just adds to that unlikelihood.

It's pie in the sky, but I have to imagine they know they absolutely must to pull this off. Its bad enough that they dumped the price by over 2K for what is now suppose to be just a month of lead time, but considering the lion share of KNC's money will in theory come from re-investors, they have to make sure they don't burn the initial investors. I'm not sure how they are going to do this but they are smart guys, they must know this has to happen to be long term solvent.

But then again, they have till Monday to show good on their promise, and we shall see by then if KNC can keep its promise, and by how much they intend to over-deliver.
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September 27, 2013, 09:13:14 PM
 #11297

Don't want to be a downer, but I am thinking KNC is gonna flop hard just like terrahash.
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September 27, 2013, 09:15:53 PM
 #11298

Don't want to be a downer, but I am thinking KNC is gonna flop hard just like terrahash.
nah, they will make it, shipping starts very likely on Monday/Tuesday....you're either not up to date or trolling


I know how you feel. ROI is looking very unlikely without deadline being missed. This just adds to that unlikelihood.

It's pie in the sky, but I have to imagine they know they absolutely must to pull this off. Its bad enough that they dumped the price by over 2K for what is now suppose to be just a month of lead time, but considering the lion share of KNC's money will in theory come from re-investors, they have to make sure they don't burn the initial investors. I'm not sure how they are going to do this but they are smart guys, they must know this has to happen to be long term solvent.

But then again, they have till Monday to show good on their promise, and we shall see by then if KNC can keep its promise, and by how much they intend to over-deliver.

they collected quite some money,
devices are way overpriced,
they could send 2xamount of hashing power ordered and would still make profit

...but guess what...we're living in a capitalistic world,
I do not except anything as 'compensation' - but would much appreciate it for sure

..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
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September 27, 2013, 09:17:25 PM
 #11299

Don't want to be a downer, but I am thinking KNC is gonna flop hard just like terrahash.

I don't think so..in KNC it is not about "if" but about "when"
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September 27, 2013, 09:18:18 PM
 #11300

nah, they will make it, shipping starts very likely on Monday/Tuesday....you're either not up to date or trolling

They don't even have a fully working product yet.
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