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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3009287 times)
itod
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September 25, 2013, 12:48:34 PM
 #10641

That said we only KnC's package size, not die size. Large package size, does not necessarily correlate to a large die size.

Ill grant you that, but I havent heard anyone refute hashfast's argument that the minimum estimate of KnC's die size based on the package/underfull dimensions would be on the order of 900mm³. Thats not just a little bit bigger, thats an epic size.
...

I'm sure most here don't care if KNC chips are, indeed, full-custom or standard cell -- as long as the performance is within spec.  I know there are some 28nm fetishists around, who think 28nm node = god, but hopefully Bitfury 55nm chips castrated their nanolust.

It's not the 28nm fetish-ing, it's just plain blindness when somebody claim that it is unimportant that your 28nm chip burns 60% more electricity per GH (unmeasured worst case prediction)than your 55nm competitor (measured) and 100% more than the rest of the 28nm camp (expected) (the only thing that is expected is that simulated best case results have never equalled the reality of Bitcoin mining ASICS, have they? So better to be responsible, and err upon the side of caution, as engineering over marketing dictates). Only thing left is to jump to conclusion that everyone else is lying and to ask for Bitfury miner screenshots in disbelief (if that's a dig at me, get your fact's straight. I never once claimed any disbelief, just requested video as the products are in the wild for a baseline comparison of w/Gh/s as people are so keen to draw comparisons once KnC's data is to hand. Again go and check who posted congrats to Punin about three posts after he announced the Bitfury boards were populated and complete; https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250249.msg2911187#msg2911187 Wink). Yeah, it will surely be unimportant in march next year when every watt will be counted if your miner is plugged from the wall or not  Roll Eyes (Perhaps, by that point you could always underclock kit, or move on to next gen - nothing lasts forever, especially at the rate at which Bitcoin mining tech is racing towards the smallest feasible die shrink, if the BTC price justifies a worthwhile investment)

If the point of all that red ink you spilled across my post is to make it unreadable - you made it, congratulations. But that does not make your points relevant if you put them in red for some reason, you just look silly since there is not a single argument in these red letters.

I don't want to get into shouting competition with you, I've just wanted to point to an argument. But it's your way to mask the arguments with all kind of noise, be it a wall of text or red letters or something else.

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According to NIST and ECRYPT II, the cryptographic algorithms used in Bitcoin are expected to be strong until at least 2030. (After that, it will not be too difficult to transition to different algorithms.)
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September 25, 2013, 12:48:40 PM
 #10642

(...)

$/Gh and timing of delivery matters far more than watts/Gh.

Depends I'd say.

It depends one the environment: competitor's $ per GH/s, W per GH/s  as well as shipping date and total amount to be shipped

Sort'a true.  The thing to keep in mind is profits fall exponentially as the difficulty climbs exponentially.  Power consumption becomes increasingly relevant with time, but, at the point when it begins to matter (coins mined ~= cost of electricity), being 50% more energy-efficient only buys you an extra month of mining at a ridiculously low profit (if the difficulty doubles during that month).
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September 25, 2013, 12:50:14 PM
 #10643

The calculation looked ok.  The ROI drops off rapidly, but it still look like it's worth mining until you have about 40BTC then maybe sell the rig, or try and running it under clocked for more ROI.
Maybe is not a bad idea to sell it later. I could mine for one month and sell it with PSU. To the buyer it would be cheaper than the new units from KNC that will deliver in november for 5000 USD.
Thanks for the idea!

Like anyone is gonna give a dime for a big box of electronics that wastes money.

[url = https: //bitcointalk.org/index.php? topic = 2159012.0] ⚡ Semux ● Free Airdrop ● NO ICO ● Первый Java-based BFT Blockchain [/ center]
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September 25, 2013, 12:53:25 PM
 #10644


Set the "lower difficulty increase / jump" to more realistic 4% or even 5%.


i´d rather put in 250 or even 300 mio diff to start with and only +15% change after this. after knc has shipped it will be unlikely that 30 % increases will happen. who will ship this much ?
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September 25, 2013, 12:56:29 PM
 #10645


Set the "lower difficulty increase / jump" to more realistic 4% or even 5%.


i´d rather put in 250 or even 300 mio diff to start with and only +15% change after this. after knc has shipped it will be unlikely that 30 % increases will happen. who will ship this much ?

Hashfast/Cointerra/BFL/Blackarrow/ASICminer/Avalon/Bitfury/???
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September 25, 2013, 12:58:01 PM
 #10646

i´d rather put in 250 or even 300 mio diff to start with and only +15% change after this. after knc has shipped it will be unlikely that 30 % increases will happen. who will ship this much ?

HashFast, they ship towards the end of October. If KnC is a few weeks late it could easily happen they ship at the same time.

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September 25, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
 #10647

Hashfast site still says "We taped out yesterday" Roll Eyes

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September 25, 2013, 01:05:51 PM
 #10648

I was just taking a look to this prediction for a Jupiter:

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=148623691.94537259&dcosts=7500&diff_mincrease=35&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=500000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=128.53&dpowcon=650&btcusd_mincrease=0&pcost=0.25&calcweeks=20&dleadtime=1&action=calc#

HashFast, they ship towards the end of October. If KnC is a few weeks l
(...)
Do you really think that there are still chances for ROI? Any suggestions?

Set the "lower difficulty increase / jump" to more realistic 4% or even 5%.

Please consider the massive spike in hashing power when KnC starts shipping.
This results in blocks passing by rapidly, causing a diff increase earlier than we're used to have it.

We might reach 3,5+ PH/s during October ~> 500M diff before end of October.
So it might happen that we jump from 200M to over 400M in one step => +100% increase.

Hashfast is confident to ship October 20th-30th, would be the next spike
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg3219978#msg3219978

November and December look even more scary..
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283820.0

!! File Complaints Against KnCMiner NOW !!
..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
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September 25, 2013, 01:08:17 PM
 #10649

Hashfast site still says "We taped out yesterday" Roll Eyes

Maybe we are not looking at the same site, it was almost a month ago:
https://hashfast.com/blog/

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September 25, 2013, 01:10:23 PM
 #10650

Why is hashfast able to provide the order chain and KnC is not willing to do so?
https://hashfast.com/order-chain/

!! File Complaints Against KnCMiner NOW !!
..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
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Crypterium - Digital Mobile Cryptobank For Everyon


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September 25, 2013, 01:12:08 PM
 #10651

Can't go wrong with a reliable Casio


I had that exact watch when i was in grade 4!!!

I liked it when I started running back in the late-'80's as it has a 10 minute beep on the timer.  Ten minutes out and 10 back before breakfast then off to work.



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September 25, 2013, 01:13:22 PM
 #10652

Yeah, and Cointerra's 2TH boxes. Many, many, many orders. In talking to them, order queue in the 4 digit range for Dec/Jan.


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September 25, 2013, 01:13:31 PM
 #10653

That said we only KnC's package size, not die size. Large package size, does not necessarily correlate to a large die size.

Ill grant you that, but I havent heard anyone refute hashfast's argument that the minimum estimate of KnC's die size based on the package/underfull dimensions would be on the order of 900mm³. Thats not just a little bit bigger, thats an epic size.
...

I'm sure most here don't care if KNC chips are, indeed, full-custom or standard cell -- as long as the performance is within spec.  I know there are some 28nm fetishists around, who think 28nm node = god, but hopefully Bitfury 55nm chips castrated their nanolust.

It's not the 28nm fetish-ing, it's just plain blindness when somebody claim that it is unimportant that your 28nm chip burns 60% more electricity per GH (unmeasured worst case prediction)than your 55nm competitor (measured) and 100% more than the rest of the 28nm camp (expected) (the only thing that is expected is that simulated best case results have never equalled the reality of Bitcoin mining ASICS, have they? So better to be responsible, and err upon the side of caution, as engineering over marketing dictates). Only thing left is to jump to conclusion that everyone else is lying and to ask for Bitfury miner screenshots in disbelief (if that's a dig at me, get your fact's straight. I never once claimed any disbelief, just requested video as the products are in the wild for a baseline comparison of w/Gh/s as people are so keen to draw comparisons once KnC's data is to hand. Again go and check who posted congrats to Punin about three posts after he announced the Bitfury boards were populated and complete; https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250249.msg2911187#msg2911187 Wink). Yeah, it will surely be unimportant in march next year when every watt will be counted if your miner is plugged from the wall or not  Roll Eyes (Perhaps, by that point you could always underclock kit, or move on to next gen - nothing lasts forever, especially at the rate at which Bitcoin mining tech is racing towards the smallest feasible die shrink, if the BTC price justifies a worthwhile investment)

If the point of all that red ink you spilled across my post is to make it unreadable - you made it, congratulations. But that does not make your points relevant if you put them in red for some reason, you just look silly since there is not a single argument in these red letters.

I don't want to get into shouting competition with you, I've just wanted to point to an argument. But it's your way to mask the arguments with all kind of noise, be it a wall of text or red letters or something else.

No argument wanted here. All my points added are reasonable rebuttals based upon observation of your assumptions. The red admittedly appears fierce, but that's not how it's intended. i just couldn't be bothered rearranging text, and if I left it black it wouldn't be visable. I'll change it to blue. Also I don't believe in anyway shape of form Hashfast are delivering by the end of October, again ignore their marketing, and read their terms and conditions. Paints a completely different story, remember they have removed ALL accountability and liability along with the ability to refund. KnC, and Cointerra have not.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
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September 25, 2013, 01:15:30 PM
 #10654

I think it's almost certain that we'll be seeing a difficulty of at least 500 million in a month or two.

BFL is currently somewhere around half way through clearing their preorder backlog, which means they'll add up somewhere around 100M to the current difficulty plus another 100M from updated devices which are not formally considered preorders. Should KnC ship an equal amount of units, and it may as well end up being more, we're already at 500.

Add to that all other companies, and we'll be closer to a billion. Also, don't forget about BFL monarch and the fact that a majority of preorders likely transferred their orders to a new device. Early next year, we're probably close to 2 billion.

I'm guessing that will be the point where the rush will end and panic will ensue. The difficulty will most likely be a sigmoid function, and right now we're less than half way through. Depending on the preorders, the end result might be a marginally positive or even a negative income when you add up electricity costs. You can pretty much forget about making a positive ROI unless you get your units in the next couple of days.

Just to make clear, I'm a BFL customer (unfortunately), and it is obvious fact that I have a vested interest in discouraging other people from mining. However, since a large portion of the preorders are non-refundable, even if I somehow manage to sway those who can get their money back, we're still all screwed.

[url = https: //bitcointalk.org/index.php? topic = 2159012.0] ⚡ Semux ● Free Airdrop ● NO ICO ● Первый Java-based BFT Blockchain [/ center]
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September 25, 2013, 01:22:04 PM
 #10655

I think it's almost certain that we'll be seeing a difficulty of at least 500 million in a month or two.

BFL is currently somewhere around half way through clearing their preorder backlog, which means they'll add up somewhere around 100M to the current difficulty plus another 100M from updated devices which are not formally considered preorders. Should KnC ship an equal amount of units, and it may as well end up being more, we're already at 500.

Add to that all other companies, and we'll be closer to a billion. Also, don't forget about BFL monarch and the fact that a majority of preorders likely transferred their orders to a new device. Early next year, we're probably close to 2 billion.

I'm guessing that will be the point where the rush will end and panic will ensue. The difficulty will most likely be a sigmoid function, and right now we're less than half way through. Depending on the preorders, the end result might be a marginally positive or even a negative income when you add up electricity costs. You can pretty much forget about making a positive ROI unless you get your units in the next couple of days.

Just to make clear, I'm a BFL customer (unfortunately), and it is obvious fact that I have a vested interest in discouraging other people from mining. However, since a large portion of the preorders are non-refundable, even if I somehow manage to sway those who can get their money back, we're still all screwed.

It's pointless dude, someone else will always buy it. The Genesis Block has been trying to falsely dissuade people from mining for ages, but it is inevitable that whilst a profit margin exists, there is enough money to pour in as long as it beats banking interest rates. At some point that will balance out, then like GPU mining it's an investment into the believe gov acceptance and regulation tied with innovation in accessibility, products, services, and mainstream adoption will continue the BTC price rise as it becomes a more concrete, secure and useful currency and means of instantaneous wealth transfer. If you want to make big money then be prepared to work hard, sweat and innovate. The belief that people really thought they had locked up this mining game and it's reward all for themselves and no one else would notice is moronic. Flog the unit on eBay if you don't believe in Bitcoin, enough people will pay a premium, they always do. The new iPhone with finger print recognition shared from Apple with love to the NSA has been reaching $10k! And that's just for people that cannot wait two weeks for it to be in stock in your standard retain phone outlet. What possible return to you get from that?! It does nothing special, it makes calls and shares your personal info with security agencies, aside from that you're paying 1000% for a few keen glances two weeks before everyone has one??

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp
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September 25, 2013, 01:32:31 PM
 #10656

I think it's almost certain that we'll be seeing a difficulty of at least 500 million in a month or two.

BFL is currently somewhere around half way through clearing their preorder backlog, which means they'll add up somewhere around 100M to the current difficulty plus another 100M from updated devices which are not formally considered preorders. Should KnC ship an equal amount of units, and it may as well end up being more, we're already at 500.

Add to that all other companies, and we'll be closer to a billion. Also, don't forget about BFL monarch and the fact that a majority of preorders likely transferred their orders to a new device. Early next year, we're probably close to 2 billion.

I'm guessing that will be the point where the rush will end and panic will ensue. The difficulty will most likely be a sigmoid function, and right now we're less than half way through. Depending on the preorders, the end result might be a marginally positive or even a negative income when you add up electricity costs. You can pretty much forget about making a positive ROI unless you get your units in the next couple of days.

Just to make clear, I'm a BFL customer (unfortunately), and it is obvious fact that I have a vested interest in discouraging other people from mining. However, since a large portion of the preorders are non-refundable, even if I somehow manage to sway those who can get their money back, we're still all screwed.


Agreed.

No point in ordering ASICs anymore. too risky.

sooner or later people will realize that and stop ordering.
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September 25, 2013, 01:35:53 PM
 #10657

Why is hashfast able to provide the order chain and KnC is not willing to do so?
https://hashfast.com/order-chain/

Someone really bought 200 jets in one go?  How reliable is this information?

Tired of substandard power distribution in your ASIC setup???   Chris' Custom Cablez will get you sorted out right!  No job too hard so PM me for a quote
Check my products or ask a question here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74397.0
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September 25, 2013, 01:40:58 PM
 #10658

I think it's almost certain that we'll be seeing a difficulty of at least 500 million in a month or two.

BFL is currently somewhere around half way through clearing their preorder backlog, which means they'll add up somewhere around 100M to the current difficulty plus another 100M from updated devices which are not formally considered preorders. Should KnC ship an equal amount of units, and it may as well end up being more, we're already at 500.

Add to that all other companies, and we'll be closer to a billion. Also, don't forget about BFL monarch and the fact that a majority of preorders likely transferred their orders to a new device. Early next year, we're probably close to 2 billion.

I'm guessing that will be the point where the rush will end and panic will ensue. The difficulty will most likely be a sigmoid function, and right now we're less than half way through. Depending on the preorders, the end result might be a marginally positive or even a negative income when you add up electricity costs. You can pretty much forget about making a positive ROI unless you get your units in the next couple of days.

Just to make clear, I'm a BFL customer (unfortunately), and it is obvious fact that I have a vested interest in discouraging other people from mining. However, since a large portion of the preorders are non-refundable, even if I somehow manage to sway those who can get their money back, we're still all screwed.

It's pointless dude, someone else will always buy it. The Genesis Block has been trying to falsely dissuade people from mining for ages, but it is inevitable that whilst a profit margin exists, there is enough money to pour in as long as it beats banking interest rates. At some point that will balance out, then like GPU mining it's an investment into the believe gov acceptance and regulation tied with innovation in accessibility, products, services, and mainstream adoption will continue the BTC price rise as it becomes a more concrete, secure and useful currency and means of instantaneous wealth transfer. If you want to make big money then be prepared to work hard, sweat and innovate. The belief that people really thought they had locked up this mining game and it's reward all for themselves and no one else would notice is moronic. Flog the unit on eBay if you don't believe in Bitcoin, enough people will pay a premium, they always do. The new iPhone with finger print recognition shared from Apple with love to the NSA has been reaching $10k! And that's just for people that cannot wait two weeks for it to be in stock in your standard retain phone outlet. What possible return to you get from that?! It does nothing special, it makes calls and shares your personal info with security agencies, aside from that you're paying 1000% for a few keen glances two weeks before everyone has one??

The problem here is the preorders. It's not like you order a miner and you get one in the mail a few days later, you have to wait for months. And that gives you a false impression of the difficulty, making the units seem more profitable than they really are. Ultimately, people will still be buying units even when they'll spend more in electricity than they'll generate in bitcoins, because they'll ignore the future difficulty adjustment. When that happens, most people will throw their new miners straight from the postman's hands into the garbage bag. Those few lucky enough to live in the cheap electricity areas of the world will be the only ones making a profit.

So yeah, before that happens, the best option is to list them on ebay as soon as you get them. You can still mine for 45 days till Paypal asks for a chargeback. Or get a dayjob and fill your office with miners consuming your boss' electricity Smiley

[url = https: //bitcointalk.org/index.php? topic = 2159012.0] ⚡ Semux ● Free Airdrop ● NO ICO ● Первый Java-based BFT Blockchain [/ center]
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September 25, 2013, 01:42:41 PM
 #10659

Why is hashfast able to provide the order chain and KnC is not willing to do so?
https://hashfast.com/order-chain/

Someone really bought 200 jets in one go?  How reliable is this information?

cloudhashing might be the customer, how knows..at least they buy 200+ from KnC

http://www.cloudhashing.com/newsletter/august2013.html
"We will officially be mining at 105 terahashes by the end of September 2013"

105/0,5=210 devices

Would it make sense for an asic manufacturer to increase the number of sold units artificially ?

!! File Complaints Against KnCMiner NOW !!
..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
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September 25, 2013, 01:43:15 PM
 #10660

Why is hashfast able to provide the order chain and KnC is not willing to do so?
https://hashfast.com/order-chain/

Someone really bought 200 jets in one go?  How reliable is this information?

It was me.  It was I. 
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